Feedback: Testing Melee Set Performance

[Infinitum]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

This is a video game that is made of formulas.

yes but those same formulas also allow controllers to Solo GMs.

[Megajoule]

tl;dr we've got (at least) two posters in this thread who enjoy their power fantasy just as it is and don't want it reigned in in any way.

[Ananke]

Just now, Megajoule said:

tl;dr we've got (at least) two posters in this thread who enjoy their power fantasy just as it is and don't want it reigned in in any way.

 

Power fantasy is why most people play this game instead of something else, to be honest. One of the recurring comments that people have about City of Heroes is that they FEEL powerful. Hard to blame them for wanting it to stay that way. My offender can also solo GMs but it occurs to me that this game never seems to have been rebalanced for sets or for the Incarnate system. We're essentially always up against dead content unless we turn on the optional 'no enhancements' and such when a TF is started.

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

This is a video game that is made of formulas.

Let me ask you a question, what prompted you to bring up this thread topic?  Why was it so important to you to "slap"tw on the wrist?    just to gain the prestige to discover the "fix" for it?  Is that what this is about?

 

For the life of me i have not seen the game melting due to how TW plays, i dont get it.  Its not the OP set you guys are making it out to be, unless you deliberately try to exploit it like a Spines FIre or Rad fire in the fire farms.

 

But at the end of the day, who cares?  Everyone is having fun, and nothing is broken.

 

Its busy body work.  theres a ton of other problems like EM that need attention way before you start talking nerfs like this which would create more EM like problems.

 

Im done with you guys calling me dishonest though.  I just play the game, and love it. I would do it for a living if i could.

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

tl;dr we've got (at least) two posters in this thread who enjoy their power fantasy just as it is and don't want it reigned in in any way.

Its not my main  lol  Its just more than a little bit ignorant to nerf something that isnt broken, works well, is fun to a lot of people, and hasnt broken the game as a whole.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Ananke said:

 

Power fantasy is why most people play this game instead of something else, to be honest. One of the recurring comments that people have about City of Heroes is that they FEEL powerful. Hard to blame them for wanting it to stay that way. My offender can also solo GMs but it occurs to me that this game never seems to have been rebalanced for sets or for the Incarnate system. We're essentially always up against dead content unless we turn on the optional 'no enhancements' and such when a TF is started.

Exactly, but i play others instead of TW because they feel more powerful than it does.  Is been shelved for 2 months now.  I bring it out to kick around every now and again, but thats it.

[Infinitum]

Barechiel - Brute (Titan Weapons).mxdNova Infinitum - Brute (Energy Melee).mxd

 

There are my two builds, im not looking for a critique, Im not looking to change them.  They fit my needs, and my Theme.

[Galaxy Brain]

I have already went over how that is a gimmick. My Bot/Trap could do that on live at lvl 34 without IOs due to game mechanics and how GMs don't tend to run about / are huge targets for patch-type powers. But this is beside the point as that is a super niche part of the game that does not net huge rewards compared to a set that is overperforming in most areas of the game.

 

It feels that there is no way to reach common ground with you as anything brought up as "feeling" from people who believe that TW overperforms is countered by your feeling that it does not. If numbers are brought up, they are dismissed as outliers to outliers in broken scenarios or the product of spreadsheet nerdery.  As for those who comment without a lvl 50, anybody can roll up a lvl 50 right now on the Pineapple server to test those feels right now if they so wish.

 

Its not a matter of it even needing a TW-sized nerf bat taken to it. As @Steampunketteput it it could be tweaked down by 10% at the high end and be right in line with other sets when it performs under high end conditions without effecting average play. Her suggestion on Page 1 even gives more up-time for momentum which makes the set easier to use and queue up. 

 

What I would like to ask though, is what in your eyes could be presented as a test to show that TW is not, or is overperforming?

[Ananke]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Exactly, but i play others instead of TW because they feel more powerful than it does.

 

I'unno. My TW/Dark Scrapper is definitely up there I think, but it's also unplayable sub-45 on account of needing to be fed either ageless or speed boost permanently. Nevermind the annoyance of long cast times on trash mobs which die super fast, but that's just a general thing.

[Megajoule]

6 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Its not my main  lol  Its just more than a little bit ignorant to nerf something that isnt broken, works well, is fun to a lot of people, and hasnt broken the game as a whole.

You have absolutely no concept of "game balance", do you?  Just an endless repetition of "it's not hurting anyone lol"

[Ananke]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

What I would like to ask though, is what in your eyes could be presented as a test to show that TW is not, or is overperforming?

 

At the same time, I feel like this is a non issue. We don't have a problem finding non TW players for groups because 10% ahead is actually not so much that people feel they HAVE to play something. Even The Really Hard Way runs don't discriminate to prioritize TW.

[Infinitum]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

I have already went over how that is a gimmick. My Bot/Trap could do that on live at lvl 34 without IOs due to game mechanics and how GMs don't tend to run about / are huge targets for patch-type powers. But this is beside the point as that is a super niche part of the game that does not net huge rewards compared to a set that is overperforming in most areas of the game.

 

It feels that there is no way to reach common ground with you as anything brought up as "feeling" from people who believe that TW overperforms is countered by your feeling that it does not. If numbers are brought up, they are dismissed as outliers to outliers in broken scenarios or the product of spreadsheet nerdery.  As for those who comment without a lvl 50, anybody can roll up a lvl 50 right now on the Pineapple server to test those feels right now if they so wish.

 

Its not a matter of it even needing a TW-sized nerf bat taken to it. As @Steampunketteput it it could be tweaked down by 10% at the high end and be right in line with other sets when it performs under high end conditions without effecting average play. Her suggestion on Page 1 even gives more up-time for momentum which makes the set easier to use and queue up. 

 

What I would like to ask though, is what in your eyes could be presented as a test to show that TW is not, or is overperforming?

The numbers are outliers to people looking to overpower Offensively anything they can get their hands on.

 

Nothing, because if my In game experience is telling my Eyes, and my brain that TW is visibly is not as good as my other sets, you cant convince me that it needs a nerf.  Because then, what will stop the next nerf to something I really do like?

[Infinitum]

Just now, Megajoule said:

You have absolutely no concept of "game balance", do you?  Just an endless repetition of "it's not hurting anyone lol"

No i dont, because if you were concerned with it you would be bringing up all the stupid controller tricks that are allowed.   Last i checked TW hasnt broken anything, are people jumping ship?  lol

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Ananke said:

 

At the same time, I feel like this is a non issue. We don't have a problem finding non TW players for groups because 10% ahead is actually not so much that people feel they HAVE to play something. Even The Really Hard Way runs don't discriminate to prioritize TW.

TW is a set that will get you killed on ITrials because of the long first animation.

[Ananke]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

TW is a set that will get you killed on ITrials because of the long first animation.

 

Don't play a like a moron and this will never happen. Any good player knows what mechanics are coming up soon and doesn't tunnel vision, so being animation locked is a non issue. This isn't a CoX specific statement either, you wouldn't want to do it in any other game or MMO either.

 

This game handholds you so much regarding what mechanics are coming up that if you start casting some dumb shit like total focus then you legit 100% absolutely deserved it. Read the popups and stop staring at your bars.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Ananke

[Infinitum]

Just now, Ananke said:

 

Don't play a like a moron and this will never happen. Any good player knows what mechanics are coming up soon and doesn't tunnel vision, so being animation locked is a non issue. This isn't a CoX specific statement either, you wouldn't want to do it in any other game or MMO either.

Yeah i get carried away sometimes.  But if you get caught in the Preatoran unresistable stuff on anything its trouble.  TW just wasnt useful for me as a Main.

[Galaxy Brain]

6 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Let me ask you a question, what prompted you to bring up this thread topic?  Why was it so important to you to "slap"tw on the wrist?    just to gain the prestige to discover the "fix" for it?  Is that what this is about?

 

For the life of me i have not seen the game melting due to how TW plays, i dont get it.  Its not the OP set you guys are making it out to be, unless you deliberately try to exploit it like a Spines FIre or Rad fire in the fire farms.

 

But at the end of the day, who cares?  Everyone is having fun, and nothing is broken.

 

Its busy body work.  theres a ton of other problems like EM that need attention way before you start talking nerfs like this which would create more EM like problems.

 

Im done with you guys calling me dishonest though.  I just play the game, and love it. I would do it for a living if i could.

Because I love the game is why, and I hate that after playing TW that other melee sets just feel absolutely worse.

 

From early on where you can jump into a group and swing two cones around, and smack LT's to death and just feel mighty, to later on when you become a true force of destruction, its hard to jump from that to sets like Broadsword, Martial Arts or even Super Strength (just look at all the threads talking about Rage & the set's overall design and how with double-rage it still cant touch TW) and get the same feeling of power that TW has. The set has drawbacks, but its nothing you cannot play around if you are paying attention which leads some players away from it early on in favor of easier sets / thematic sets, but those who stick with it see the power it holds.

 

As long as TW is a step ahead of other sets though, then it becomes the benchmark to be compared to. Again, look at the SS threads where TW is brought up jokingly as a comparison to where x2 rage isn't seen as up to snuff. The game is already easy enough as is, and as you optimize it gets even more so (and judgements are goofy in normal content...), and a team full of supports causes everything to steamroll anyways but thats another can of worms. Back to the first point though, other discussions for bringing under performing sets up to par will inevitably be compared to TW and cause further power creep. If TW is brought in line to be within the Top Tier instead of the S tier then there are more avenues for comparison when looking at other set's performances.

[Ananke]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

Yeah i get carried away sometimes.  But if you get caught in the Preatoran unresistable stuff on anything its trouble.  TW just wasnt useful for me as a Main.

 

If you see "The Air Crackles Around Tyrant!" and stand there then the issue is you, not the powerset.

[Ananke]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

Because I love the game is why, and I hate that after playing TW that other melee sets just feel absolutely worse.

 

Shoulda played Bane Spider and Energy Melee as your first melees and then you'd be thrilled to find out that literally anything else is playable.

 

_{Full disclosure that's what I did and I'm respeccing to huntsman and changed my grav nrg dom to a gravkin. FBM.}

[Infinitum]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

Because I love the game is why, and I hate that after playing TW that other melee sets just feel absolutely worse.

 

From early on where you can jump into a group and swing two cones around, and smack LT's to death and just feel mighty, to later on when you become a true force of destruction, its hard to jump from that to sets like Broadsword, Martial Arts or even Super Strength (just look at all the threads talking about Rage & the set's overall design and how with double-rage it still cant touch TW) and get the same feeling of power that TW has. The set has drawbacks, but its nothing you cannot play around if you are paying attention which leads some players away from it early on in favor of easier sets / thematic sets, but those who stick with it see the power it holds.

 

As long as TW is a step ahead of other sets though, then it becomes the benchmark to be compared to. Again, look at the SS threads where TW is brought up jokingly as a comparison to where x2 rage isn't seen as up to snuff. The game is already easy enough as is, and as you optimize it gets even more so (and judgements are goofy in normal content...), and a team full of supports causes everything to steamroll anyways but thats another can of worms. Back to the first point though, other discussions for bringing under performing sets up to par will inevitably be compared to TW and cause further power creep. If TW is brought in line to be within the Top Tier instead of the S tier then there are more avenues for comparison when looking at other set's performances.

See, again, thats not how the other Melee sets feel  i think you are getting a little carried away with how it smacks minions around.  I play my Psi and my Rad almost exclusively because they both feel and outperform TW especially when it comes to taking out a hard target, but still has good enough AOE to compete with TW.

 

Im not making that up, i know you probably think i am, but its the truth.

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Ananke said:

 

If you see "The Air Crackles Around Tyrant!" and stand there then the issue is you, not the powerset.

Ever heard of Lag also?  lol  it happens a lot in ITrials because there is a lot of people spamming stuff.

 

Sometimes you are dead and dont even realize it.

[Ananke]

Just now, Infinitum said:

Ever heard of Lag also?  lol  it happens a lot in ITrials because there is a lot of people spamming stuff.

 

Sometimes you are dead and dont even realize it.

 

I live in South America and play every game with 200-300ms ping. Don't talk to me about lag. Consider instead that you have bad situational awareness and you're nowhere as good as you think you are.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Ananke said:

 

Shoulda played Bane Spider and Energy Melee as your first melees and then you'd be thrilled to find out that literally anything else is playable.

 

_{Full disclosure that's what I did and I'm respeccing to huntsman and changed my grav nrg dom to a gravkin. FBM.}

LOL  thats true, I can think of at least 4 sets that I personally think operates better than TW, Psi, Rad, SS, and Fire.

 

Im hoping they FIx EM, i have that one i posted ready to go when they do, if they do.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, Ananke said:

 

Shoulda played Bane Spider and Energy Melee as your first melees and then you'd be thrilled to find out that literally anything else is playable.

 

_{Full disclosure that's what I did and I'm respeccing to huntsman and changed my grav nrg dom to a gravkin. FBM.}

Lol, my first melee was a MA/Regen scrapper. MA got better over time but is still a bit middle of the road. As for Regen.....

 

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

See, again, thats not how the other Melee sets feel  i think you are getting a little carried away with how it smacks minions around.  I play my Psi and my Rad almost exclusively because they both feel and outperform TW especially when it comes to taking out a hard target, but still has good enough AOE to compete with TW.

 

Im not making that up, i know you probably think i am, but its the truth.

 

What makes your experience more impactful than mine, or mine more impactful than your's? 

[Infinitum]

Just now, Ananke said:

 

I live in South America and play every game with 200-300ms ping. Don't talk to me about lag. Consider instead that you have bad situational awareness and you're nowhere as good as you think you are.

Why so insulting?  geeze, I see the warning, im in mid attack and if the damn thing doesnt move it doesnt move.  Thats not my fault.