Does a Huntsman build require Crab?

[TheGentlemanGhostronaut]

I'm aiming for a more (visually) thematic Huntsman build, but all the Huntsman builds I see tend to lean on Crab quite heavily.  Is Huntsman seriously lacking without the extra legs?

[Redlynne]

It can be done on the Bane side of things, but I honestly believe that a Bane flavored Huntsman is inferior (for various reasons).

 

Although the build is now seriously outdated, you can use my efforts from back in May as a starting point for deciding what you'd like to do.

[TheGentlemanGhostronaut]

What makes Bane so much more inferior?

[Redlynne]

37 minutes ago, TheGentlemanGhostronaut said:

What makes Bane so much more inferior?

It's complicated.

Best way to explain is to try and give the 1 to 1 comparisons.

 

 

 

If you're dealing with a "pure" Huntsman build where you aren't using any Mace attack powers as a Bane Soldier (so Single Shot, Burst, Heavy Burst, Venom Grenade and Frag Grenade) there's only a few powers left that make a difference between Bane and Crab.

 

Build Up (Bane) vs Aim (Crab)

The recharge times and durations on these two powers are the the same, but if you're looking for damage then Build Up on a Bane is the superior choice, since Build Up on a Bane is a +20/+80 mix of +ToHit and +Damage, while Aim for a Crab is a +50/+50 mix instead.  Since +ToHit is something you're rarely hurting for, especially if you double up on auras with Tactics from the Leadership pool, often times you'd want Build Up more than you'd want Aim.

Advantage: Bane (for damage) or Crab (for tohit)

 

Bane Spider Armor Upgrade vs Crab Spider Armor Upgrade

Oddly enough, on a passive basis the Bane Spider Armor Upgrade is superior in a 1 to 1 comparison with Crab Spider Armor Upgrade, since the Bane version is +7.5% Resistance (All) and a +20% HP boost compared to the Crab version with +3% Smashing/Lethal Resistance and +2% Psionic Resistance and no HP boost.  All other parameters between them are equal.

Advantage: Bane (for Resistances and HP boost)

 

Cloaking Device vs Fortification

Cloaking Device is a Bane's version of a Stealth power and cannot be used simultaneously with Stealth from the Concealment pool, although unlike Stealth you'll be able to Critically Hit with your alpha strike when attacking from non-combat "hidden" status under Cloaking Device ... but only with melee attacks, which are quite useless to a "pure" Huntsman build.  To REALLY get the most out of this alpha strike capability you really want to be using Placate to let you get a "double alpha" strike, but it only helps Pummel and Bayonet for that, which a Huntsman build doesn't use ... so ... mostly wasted.  Fortification, however, is the reason why the Crab Spider Armor Upgrade was downgraded relative to the Bane alternative.  Fortification is what makes your Crab "tanky" against damage, since Fortification offers +15% Smashing/Lethal Resistance, +25% Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative Energy/Toxic Resistance AND an additional -8 MAG protection against Stun, Sleep, Immobilize and Hold this turns your Crab into a Scrapper/Tanker-esque level of mez protection that Banes simply don't have.

Advantage: Crab (for Resistances and mez protection)

 

Surveillance vs Serum

Surveillance is good against a single target, and you can slot it with an Achilles' Heel proc to increase the resistance debuffing that the power does, but that Achilles' Heel proc will also negate the aggro-less aspect of Surveillance and turn it into an aggro causing power (because debuffs cause Threat generation).  And while -20% Resistance (All) looks good on paper, and in the build planner, in actual gameplay it often winds up being more trouble than it's worth since it doesn't debuff resistances by all THAT much and it's only to a single target, rather than to a grouping of them via an AoE.  Useful for doing a Surveillance+Build Up+Melee attack opener from under Cloaking Device for a guaranteed critical hit opener as a way to combo yourself into an Assassin's Strike knockoff on a single hard target in melee range, but nowhere near as useful to a Huntsman with 2 single target ranged attacks, 1 cone attack and 2 target AoE attacks who is using a lot more AoE damage to mow things down en masse in parallel rather than serially in a "take a number get in line" fashion.  By contrast, Serum is ALL upside for Crabs since it's a Dull Pain knockoff that increases your pool of HP and heals you when used.  This is the ONLY outright "heal" power you can get as an Arachnos Soldier without resorting to the Medicine pool to get Aid Self.

Advantage: Crab (Dull Pain style boost and heal)

 

Web Cocoon vs Summon Spiderlings

Web Cocoon is a single target MAG 3 Hold that also has -Fly, -Jump, -Run and recharge debuffing built into it.  Against a single target, it's decent against Lieutenants and can be slotted with the Lockdown set proc to have a chance to Hold Bosses.  However, now with Proc Monster Fu it can also be slotted perhaps even more advantageously than Ice Arrow out of the Trick Arrow powerset as a proc monster as a damage proc power since it has a decently long base recharge time (16s) and the power can be slotted with both Hold AND Slow enhancements.  This combination of power and slots can result in a deceptively powerful set of possibilities for Web Cocoon, but it's still a single target power.  By contrast, Summon Spiderlings gives you additional Pets that can help soak alpha strikes for you in addition to acting as distractions/diversions/cannon fodder for you to spread incoming damage away from yourself, increasing your survivability.  If you slot the +Def and +Res aura procs for Pets into Summon Spiderlings and into Call Reinforcements, Spiderlings can be surprisingly hardy while under the protection of your Defense aura(s), especially if you've also taken (and slotted) Maneuvers from the Leadership pool.  Additionally, having Spiderlings accompanying you dramatically increases the odds of getting a Gaussian's proc from one of your +tohit aura powers every 10 seconds, which can be decidedly useful even when soloing.

Advantage: Bane (mez plus proc potential) or Crab (sturdy(-ier) Pets that can help proc Gaussian's Build Up slotted in +tohit auras)

 

 

 

Ultimately, it comes down to a question of needing to Pick Your Poison.

• Banes get a "better" Build Up power than Crabs with their Aim power, since Build Up buffs damage output more heavily.
• Banes get their HP boost from their Armor Upgrade (an Auto power) rather than from Serum (a Click power), but they also don't get any periodic healing from Serum.  Also, Serum is not coded as being does not stack from same caster meaning that with enough (outside) recharge boosting you can double stack Serum.
• Cloaking Device winds up being a slightly better version of Stealth, but the critical hits feature is "wasted" on a Huntsman, while Fortification keeps you alive and gunning.
• Surveillance is really only useful once (or twice) per spawn group, while Serum is useful pretty much every time the power finishes its recharge.
• Web Cocoon simply plays differently, as a neutralizer/mez power, than Summon Spiderlings does.  It's really a matter of preference here, although the Gaussain's proc chances on +tohit aura powers should NOT be overlooked!

For me personally, the increase in survivability from the combination of Fortification+Serum+Summon Spiderlings is vastly more useful to (me using) a ranged attacker style of gameplay than the converse of Cloaking Device (barely useful), Surveillance (slows you down to animate) and Web Cocoon (plenty of potential for procs here).  So on balance, I'm of the opinion that Crab "offers more" in the way of syngergies with a Blaster/Defender style of gameplay like the Huntsman favors than the Bane does.

[Omega-202]

1 hour ago, TheGentlemanGhostronaut said:

What makes Bane so much more inferior?

Lack of Spiderlings, Serum and Fortification were what I missed the most when I tested Bane Huntsman.  The offense isnt that much different.  You trade Web and Surveillance in Bane for substantially more bulk, Omega Maneuver and extra pets in Crab.  

 

But if you dont like the backpack, Bane Huntsman is still a very strong build.  I'd argue that its still stronger than 80% of the other builds in the game when properly built and played.  

[Shazbotacus]

There's no way to dip into Crab without lugging around the pack though, right?

[Lazarillo]

On 10/4/2019 at 11:37 PM, Omega-202 said:

Lack of Spiderlings, Serum and Fortification were what I missed the most when I tested Bane Huntsman.  The offense isnt that much different.  You trade Web and Surveillance in Bane for substantially more bulk, Omega Maneuver and extra pets in Crab.  

I'm honestly a little confused...the offense isn't notably different at all, so why be a "Huntsman" at all in that case?  Why not just be a pure Crab?

[Omega-202]

22 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

I'm honestly a little confused...the offense isn't notably different at all, so why be a "Huntsman" at all in that case?  Why not just be a pure Crab?

A) Some people like the gun and hate the spider backpack for aesthetic reasons.

 

B) The gun's single target attacks have shorter animations than the Crab single target attacks.  If you don't mind the weapon redraw, Single Shot and Burst > Channelgun and Longfang.

[Redlynne]

8 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

why be a "Huntsman" at all in that case?  Why not just be a pure Crab?

Because you can animate 6 attacks from the gun in the time it takes to animate 5 attacks from the backpack.  The Crab backpack animations take longer to animate than the counterpart gun animations.

 

And the backpack attacks won't leave you standing ankle deep in brass when you're done ... 😎

[Couthless]

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

Because you can animate 6 attacks from the gun in the time it takes to animate 5 attacks from the backpack.  The Crab backpack animations take longer to animate than the counterpart gun animations.

 

And the backpack attacks won't leave you standing ankle deep in brass when you're done ... 😎

Crabs can use the gun just as well. My crab's backpack is purely decorative.