"Multi Opponent Combat" Stat, or, How to Handle Players With Runaway Survivability

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, Leogunner said:

I'd actually limit that too.

 

While I do see using mez as a means of shoring up being overwhelmed, mez in and of itself already does a lot to limit incoming attacks.

 

So I'd actually allow stunned foes to still count as enemies in your line-up, held enemies to have a chance to not count in that line up and sleep/placate to 100% remove an enemy from that line-up with immobilize and knockback never altering the line-up and confuse...I dunno.  I guess there isn't any choice but for confuse to remove a foe from your current line-up since it's changing targets.

 

Or you can go a step further and limit this effect by AT making it so ATs like Defender and Controller reduce numbers via nullification/control while ATs like Dominator and Blaster do it by HP (meaning a Blaster and Dom only have a chance of/no chance of changing that line-up).

 

As for the surviving insta-gibbing minions, some aspects you could think about playing with is perception/aggro range.  Currently, you can be around 50-60ft away from the mob sitting on the outskirts of a group and they not notice you.  What if just turning that corner and those mobs 90ft away will notice and start filing in at you?  @Saiyajinzoningen mentioned mixing more buff/debuff mobs in there and if they are triggered at a longer range, they will start using said buffs/debuffs sooner.  Maybe if it's tough enough, people might consider using ambush tactics like Team Teleport and/or some longer range in certain AoE control powers.

 

 

Or how about this, what you said here reminded me of the battle of agincort.  English longbow archers - ranged - anhilated the French heavy melee type forces.

 

Talking about a potential Battallion type enemy engagement. What if you kinda reversed it so melee is weak to ranged numbers and give the ranged enemy insane range so part of the strategy would be to close the gap so that the closer you got the more durable your melee character would become thus requiring strategy to engage a potentially superior force until you close the gap.

 

That would open the door to utilize teleport powers and other mechanic to try to close that gap as quickly as possible to engage the enemy at your strengths rather than at their strengths.

 

See charge of the light brigade. Only this time maybe the light brigade wins.

 

Now that would be fun.

[oedipus_tex]

51 minutes ago, siolfir said:

For a soft-capped SR, Elude doesn't provide anything other than protection against mobs with tohit buffs (but not enough to make up for DE Quartz and Rularuu seers) and pushes the numbers high enough that using a multiplier would still leave you softcapped for a while even with the higher penalty. Taking your -0.05 per mob above the cap example, the +45% defense that unslotted Elude provides would mean that you would need 10 enemies above the cap to hit a 50% penalty, which would still only put you back at the soft cap. You would also have to be careful to check that the value before applying the multiplier is positive, otherwise you're simply providing defense debuff resistance.

 

Similarly, resistance above the cap serves to provide a cushion for the debuff, just a smaller one.

 

Based on this post...

...I think that the aggro cap increase that you're hoping for on this isn't going to happen, though.

 

 

 

The reason I avoided specific math is it would require some working out and considering the numerous variables out there, like "Do we want to factor in the contribution of Purple inspirations?" and other kinds of things. I will say I appreciate that the calculations are not easy, and there are ways it could go wrong. 

 

Thanks for pointing out that developer post. I don't think what I'm describing is in conflict with what Captain Powerhouse describes, altho he is free to chime in to say otherwise. This system would not mean a separate aggro cap for each archetype. It would mainly mean two things 1) some archetypes and sets would inherently be better than others at handling multiple opponents, and 2) no get out of jail free card if you aggroed more than the current cap. Instead of just ignoring you, that many extras many enemies could come down on your head. Because in this type of content the threshold where multiple enemies began to threaten "softer" archetypes would be much lower than the tanker classes, the tanks would need to play an active role managing the team's aggro and pulling enemies off of their teammates. 

 

FWIW in such a system, powers like Placate become better tools. 

 

One thing I'd want a careful look at, of course, is how it would affect PBAoE sets like Ice Control. On the other hand, with damage and attack values cranked so high currently with the intent of killing players capped to everything, that's already the case.

 

 

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

The reason I avoided specific math is it would require some working out and considering the numerous variables out there, like "Do we want to factor in the contribution of Purple inspirations?" and other kinds of things. I will say I appreciate that the calculations are not easy, and there are ways it could go wrong. 

 

Thanks for pointing out that developer post. I don't think what I'm describing is in conflict with what Captain Powerhouse describes, altho he is free to chime in to say otherwise. This system would not mean a separate aggro cap for each archetype. It would mainly mean two things 1) some archetypes and sets would inherently be better than others at handling multiple opponents, and 2) no get out of jail free card if you aggroed more than the current cap. Instead of just ignoring you, that many extras many enemies could come down on your head. Because in this type of content the threshold where multiple enemies began to threaten "softer" archetypes would be much lower than the tanker classes, the tanks would need to play an active role managing the team's aggro and pulling enemies off of their teammates. 

 

FWIW in such a system, powers like Placate become better tools. 

 

One thing I'd want a careful look at, of course, is how it would affect PBAoE sets like Ice Control. On the other hand, with damage and attack values cranked so high currently with the intent of killing players capped to everything, that's already the case.

 

 

I think it would be hard to implement what you are suggesting per AT without implementing it for the whole game not just new content.  I guess it could be a zone engagement rule also to not affect the game in its entirety.

 

Whatever would be done would have to be done by enemy faction numbers and I'm not sure if they can per AT debuff like you are suggesting.

[oedipus_tex]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

I think it would be hard to implement what you are suggesting per AT without implementing it for the whole game not just new content.  I guess it could be a zone engagement rule also to not affect the game in its entirety.

 

Whatever would be done would have to be done by enemy faction numbers and I'm not sure if they can per AT debuff like you are suggesting.

 

The stat would be a permanent character file thing. I admit I don't know CoX's database structure and how easy it is to add new character attributes. Assuming adding one is possible though, the attribute would just always be there, just not actually used unless needed. This is no different than any other character stat. You always have a Endurance Drain Resist stat even if not facing enemies who use it.

 

I don't know how CoX handles its combat scripting. It's an older game so zone-specific combat rules may be difficult. The easiest technique may be giving enemy factions appearing in this content a power that applies the modifiers in the appropriate situations. I admit it would not be super easy, which is why this is more about theorycrafting a combat solution than actually implementing it.

[oedipus_tex]

By the way, if you ever get to check out combat in a Simutronics game I recommend taking a look. I was an active player of Dragonrealms from the late 90s (starting on AOL in 1996) until around 2003. (I also had an extremely brief, entirely forgettable run as one of their game developers, lasting around 10 months, but the less we say about that the better. The main thing I'll say is I've seen the code under the hood.🙂 )

 

Combat in those games is not perfect. Far from it. Parts of it are just a mess. 

 

And yet I've been fascinated with it since I was a teen. (Showing my age here.) Because they are text-based games, making "action scenes" is somewhat harder. But the text base nature makes it possible for the combat system to include wounds when the character is struck. Defeating an enemy can involve either depleting its HP entirely, or scoring a strong enough hit against a vital body part and obliterating its rib cage or head in one shot.

 

I don't recommend anything of the kind here in City of Heroes. I just think a lot of avid gamers should have a look at the game's system. They do some fascinating and also frustrating things with it. 

In fact, they have a class of character called "Empath" in those games that I wish CoX would somehow steal, tho the CoX mechanics don't lend themselves to it easily. Empaths can't heal other people with magic, only heal themselves. But, they can magically absorb damage from others, then self cast a heal. In a game where a hit can lop off your arm, the "healer" class is forced to first transfer the missing arm to themselves and then cure it before it kills them. Its both more thrilling and somehow less exciting than it sounds (after a while it becomes routine for high level Empaths to walk around missing 3 limbs.) But I always found it fascinating.

Edited January 12, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

The stat would be a permanent character file thing. I admit I don't know CoX's database structure and how easy it is to add new character attributes. Assuming adding one is possible though, the attribute would just always be there, just not actually used unless needed. This is no different than any other character stat. You always have a Endurance Drain Resist stat even if not facing enemies who use it.

 

I don't know how CoX handles its combat scripting. It's an older game so zone-specific combat rules may be difficult. The easiest technique may be giving enemy factions appearing in this content a power that applies the modifiers in the appropriate situations. I admit it would not be super easy, which is why this is more about theorycrafting a combat solution than actually implementing it.

What do you think of my ranged super enemy idea i posted about above?

[SwitchFade]

After reading 6 pages of justifications and explanations, I must vote NO. 

 

I'm not going to math the reason why: this suggestion does not feel super. It feels WoW-ish in an attempt to make content hard in a game I love playing, NOT working at. The game can be plenty hard, or plenty easy. I love storming mass groups of foes and planting them. I love slugging it out with AV's.

 

I don't care if a brute can kill anything easily, I prefer my tank. I don't care if blasters are faster, I refer my water sentinel. Sure, I have a fire/kin farmer AND an illusion/FF controller. All fun.

 

No need to start screwing over my 1 billion inf invuln tanker, I want him ultra unkillable. I want him "laugh at 10 giant monster afk" survivable. No thanks on the scaling nerfs.

 

/Jranger, sorry 😞

Edited January 12, 2020 by SwitchFade

[oedipus_tex]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

What do you think of my ranged super enemy idea i posted about above?

 

I think I should troll you with made up numbers and reject the idea with a /jranger the way people are doing me. 😄

 

Just kidding. I will give it a look when I get a chance. 

[siolfir]

10 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

I don't know how CoX handles its combat scripting. It's an older game so zone-specific combat rules may be difficult. The easiest technique may be giving enemy factions appearing in this content a power that applies the modifiers in the appropriate situations. I admit it would not be super easy, which is why this is more about theorycrafting a combat solution than actually implementing it.

Zone-specific combat rules apply in every PvP zone. PvP zones also apply a more severe diminishing returns, especially on recharge, preventing perma-Dom and perma-Hasten and knocking resistances and defenses down for characters with high values. If it was just going to be for one zone (which would in all likelihood be avoided by most players just like PvP is) then the PvP diminishing returns could apply on the map, then just disable the ability to target enemy players and make it a co-op zone.

 

10 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

In fact, they have a class of character called "Empath" in those games that I wish CoX would somehow steal, tho the CoX mechanics don't lend themselves to it easily. Empaths can't heal other people with magic, only heal themselves. But, they can magically absorb damage from others, then self cast a heal. In a game where a hit can lop off your arm, the "healer" class is forced to first transfer the missing arm to themselves and then cure it before it kills them. Its both more thrilling and somehow less exciting than it sounds (after a while it becomes routine for high level Empaths to walk around missing 3 limbs.) But I always found it fascinating.

If they're missing 3 limbs, wouldn't they be hopping around instead of walking? 

[Grouchybeast]

11 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

In fact, they have a class of character called "Empath" in those games that I wish CoX would somehow steal, tho the CoX mechanics don't lend themselves to it easily. Empaths can't heal other people with magic, only heal themselves. But, they can magically absorb damage from others, then self cast a heal. 

There are some damage-sharing mechanics already in game, like Mastermind Bodyguard, and Share Pain from Pain Domination.  It's basically just adding a self-damage component to the healing powers.  It would need some pretty kick-ass secondary effects, though, to make people choose it over healing powers that don't try to kill you.

[Leogunner]

12 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Or how about this, what you said here reminded me of the battle of agincort.  English longbow archers - ranged - anhilated the French heavy melee type forces.

 

Talking about a potential Battallion type enemy engagement. What if you kinda reversed it so melee is weak to ranged numbers and give the ranged enemy insane range so part of the strategy would be to close the gap so that the closer you got the more durable your melee character would become thus requiring strategy to engage a potentially superior force until you close the gap.

 

That would open the door to utilize teleport powers and other mechanic to try to close that gap as quickly as possible to engage the enemy at your strengths rather than at their strengths.

 

See charge of the light brigade. Only this time maybe the light brigade wins.

 

Now that would be fun.

Two problems I see:

 

What do you mean melee vs ranged numbers, mechanically?  So a blaster or defender would just take normal damage? How exactly do you create such an effect?  I could conceive the thought but I'm not sure why a Brute meant to take damage is now being harmed more in these circumstances.

 

And closing gaps is very much an easy task for most who invest in a travel power.  Slotted SS with Combat Jumping would close a gap the 2nd fastest behind slotted Teleport.  Maybe if there were obstacles and waypoints along the way that had objectives to complete before you could engage (have to destroy the generators powering the force field around the volley firers) and cater the terrain to make it inherently difficult for all the travel powers to get to them all.  But there are people who just run with multiple travel powers.

 

This would be more a scenario suggestion which I'm not sure if it's covered in some of the incarnate content (so much crap going on, there's probably a mechanic in there somewhere I don't know about).  

 

A different scenario that I feel could benefit engaging content is group content/TF/SF that require splitting up your team more.  I believe there is some but it's more a measure to speed things up rather than a requirement.  

[siolfir]

4 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

A different scenario that I feel could benefit engaging content is group content/TF/SF that require splitting up your team more.  I believe there is some but it's more a measure to speed things up rather than a requirement.  

Most of the ones that existed as a requirement were removed to allow the ability to run them solo, but you could copy the BAF where the AVs reset if they aren't killed within a certain time frame and then split the map so they can't be pulled near each other. Make the progress bar show for everyone so that there would be some small chance of timing it, and then you just have a whole lot of people blaming their teammates for not being able to coordinate and follow instructions (and the subsequent responses of "don't tell me how to play, I do what I want").

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Two problems I see:

 

What do you mean melee vs ranged numbers, mechanically?  So a blaster or defender would just take normal damage? How exactly do you create such an effect?  I could conceive the thought but I'm not sure why a Brute meant to take damage is now being harmed more in these circumstances.

 

And closing gaps is very much an easy task for most who invest in a travel power.  Slotted SS with Combat Jumping would close a gap the 2nd fastest behind slotted Teleport.  Maybe if there were obstacles and waypoints along the way that had objectives to complete before you could engage (have to destroy the generators powering the force field around the volley firers) and cater the terrain to make it inherently difficult for all the travel powers to get to them all.  But there are people who just run with multiple travel powers.

 

This would be more a scenario suggestion which I'm not sure if it's covered in some of the incarnate content (so much crap going on, there's probably a mechanic in there somewhere I don't know about).  

 

A different scenario that I feel could benefit engaging content is group content/TF/SF that require splitting up your team more.  I believe there is some but it's more a measure to speed things up rather than a requirement.  

Yeah I was confusing because my brain spit it all out too fast.

 

The enemy has super insanely strong ranged powers with huge range, I'm talking about hitting you before you see them over the horizon style.  Those powers get weaker the closer you get.

 

It hits every AT equally and by ranged I'm not talking about blaster range I'm talking exotic damage range so once the team makes it to the target using whatever strategy they can to close the gap even at blaster range the enemy range qualifier has dissipated.

 

This would require huge maps and should have other dangers closing the gap also.

 

I think maybe the exotic damage should be reduced but not negated by stealth powers.

 

So that would give you a few ways to strategize around it.

 

And yeah I'm thinking instances TF type content for this, save the world style.

[oedipus_tex]

54 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Yeah I was confusing because my brain spit it all out too fast.

 

The enemy has super insanely strong ranged powers with huge range, I'm talking about hitting you before you see them over the horizon style.  Those powers get weaker the closer you get.

 

It hits every AT equally and by ranged I'm not talking about blaster range I'm talking exotic damage range so once the team makes it to the target using whatever strategy they can to close the gap even at blaster range the enemy range qualifier has dissipated.

 

This would require huge maps and should have other dangers closing the gap also.

 

I think maybe the exotic damage should be reduced but not negated by stealth powers.

 

So that would give you a few ways to strategize around it.

 

And yeah I'm thinking instances TF type content for this, save the world style.

 

 

This is a different concept than Multi Opponent stats, but I think it could work for a special event, task force, or trial. If you'd like to flesh out the idea some and post here in the Suggestions section I'd be happy to swing by and converse with you. I think the game has lots of room for special mechanics and events. One nice thing about that kind of content is often ends up "validating" builds other than the "ideal." I like the idea that builds that are not ideal for farming or for radio runs can still be good. I feel like the addition of the iTrials significantly improved the game and would like to see more of that type of content. Thanks for sharing your idea.

 

 

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

This is a different concept than Multi Opponent stats, but I think it could work for a special event, task force, or trial. If you'd like to flesh out the idea some and post here in the Suggestions section I'd be happy to swing by and converse with you. I think the game has lots of room for special mechanics and events. One nice thing about that kind of content is often ends up "validating" builds other than the "ideal." I like the idea that builds that are not ideal for farming or for radio runs can still be good. I feel like the addition of the iTrials significantly improved the game and would like to see more of that type of content. Thanks for sharing your idea.

 

 

What you are suggesting I don't think can be implemented game wide either, and it negates too many accustomed roles that's been established.

 

What I'm suggesting actually accomplishes the idea you are going for but is still inclusive of all the same power slotting we have grown accustomed to, but also opens the door for teams to search out other power pools for closing that gap before they get picked apart.

 

In normal world map gameplay I wouldn't want to see any of this implemented.

 

I think exotic damage would be a better way to go about accomplishing what you are looking for than just nerfing defenses based on the number of enemies.

 

We can get a glimpse of how this would potentially work in the apex TF with the blue sword exotic damage, just have more of it, faster attacks of it and a scaling damage negate defense and resistance altogether but would decrease the closer you got to the origin.

 

That would also open the door for new roles for stalkers and stealth based toons.  Sure they could try to bypass and tp but what if the ultimate enemy had sentry spawns that can see through hide?

 

This way wouldn't step on any toes, would definately increase situational difficulty of new content, but in a way that would be challenging and open the door to renewed thoughts on how to accomplish it while retaining the incarnate level of super powers.

 

Also to that the batallion were incarnate devouers so you could also add that in, various situations that would negate incarnate powers you would have to fight around.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Infinitum

[Leogunner]

37 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

What you are suggesting I don't think can be implemented game wide either, and it negates too many accustomed roles that's been established.

Which roles are negated?

 

38 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

What I'm suggesting actually accomplishes the idea you are going for but is still inclusive of all the same power slotting we have grown accustomed to, but also opens the door for teams to search out other power pools for closing that gap before they get picked apart.

What power slotting isn't being included?

 

40 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I think exotic damage would be a better way to go about accomplishing what you are looking for than just nerfing defenses based on the number of enemies.

Care to explain how (that is, how exotic damage fulfills the desired goals here)?

 

45 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

This way wouldn't step on any toes, would definately increase situational difficulty of new content, but in a way that would be challenging and open the door to renewed thoughts on how to accomplish it while retaining the incarnate level of super powers.

 

Also to that the batallion were incarnate devouers so you could also add that in, various situations that would negate incarnate powers you would have to fight around.

What you described previously doesn't really reflect that though.  It doesn't have any measures to stop certain builds from stepping on any toes, nor challenge to include incarnate levels.  As far as I can tell, once you blitz past as much distance as possible, it becomes standard fare.  You didn't outline anything after that.

 

Perhaps you've got more to your idea than you're putting to text but as far as I see, it's a niche scenario whereas putting danger to mob size kind of facilitates various scenarios that can are more rudimentary to enemy encounters as a whole.

[Infinitum]

26 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Which roles are negated?

 

What power slotting isn't being included?

 

Care to explain how (that is, how exotic damage fulfills the desired goals here)?

 

What you described previously doesn't really reflect that though.  It doesn't have any measures to stop certain builds from stepping on any toes, nor challenge to include incarnate levels.  As far as I can tell, once you blitz past as much distance as possible, it becomes standard fare.  You didn't outline anything after that.

 

Perhaps you've got more to your idea than you're putting to text but as far as I see, it's a niche scenario whereas putting danger to mob size kind of facilitates various scenarios that can are more rudimentary to enemy encounters as a whole.

1 if you negate pure defense sets or even hybrid you will lose the hero moment that makes the game fun.  This includes the slotting that allows blasters, controllers and others that can do it now too.  If you cant have hero moments whats the point of playing a super hero game? Multi opponent nerfs will remove That from any setup That exists for those types of character.  That answers point 2 also.

 

Thats why I think the size of the mob is the wrong way to increase difficulty.

 

Exotic damage is what is in verious Itrials and the apex tf that makes them interesting and requires a change in strategy to the 1-50 content.

 

Are we taking about new content challenge here which I am for making harder in interesting ways.

 

Or are we taking about redesigning the whole game to make coh2? That I'm opposed to.

 

I dont think anything should be done to change the game content thats current.

 

As for New content, game on.  How will exotic damage make it require different strategy?  See apex only on a larger scale that you cant even answer the attack until you figure out how to survive to the enemy.  Imagine a whole story arc and additional task forces to face the unseen enemy and ultimate threat.

 

Once You blitz past you will at least have a chance facing apex like enemies or even like the ones you face in the Itrials which are no joke as is even without an artillery like barrage before you ever face them.

 

Point is conventional strategy and OP slotting wont matter in the opening phases of this content. But as you push through you turn the tides

 

Isnt that what we are looking for here a challenge thats different without redesigning the game?

Edited January 13, 2020 by Infinitum

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

1 if you negate pure defense sets or even hybrid you will lose the hero moment that makes the game fun.  This includes the slotting that allows blasters, controllers and others that can do it now too.  If you cant have hero moments whats the point of playing a super hero game? Multi opponent nerfs will remove That from any setup That exists for those types of character.  That answers point 2 also.

Hero moments, you say?  So a hero moment is rushing into a hoard of toddlers that are wearing pillow filled boxing gloves who uselessly flail at you while you stomp them in the dirt?

 

I usually attribute hero moments to self sacrifice.  Putting yourself in danger so that someone else can survive, saving someone on the brink of death, going into odds you know are against you because it's your duty, making the ultimate sacrifice.  Now if you said villain moment, I could see that.  Hero moment?  That's subjective, IMO.  Seems like people are just dressing up being OP tyrants as being a superpowered god then later tattooing some virtue about sacrifice on their ankle and pretending they are actually risking anything to call themselves heroes.  But then I've always been the CoV fan but maybe it was because they seemed the underdog here.

 

I'm just saying, "hero moments" is a vague subjective viewpoint that will change from person to person.  Do you think just because you managed to survive a hoard ambush in a team because you are IO'ed out with capped def, that you are more a hero than those that didn't make it?  Or are we talking about something other than a "hero moment"?

 

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

Thats why I think the size of the mob is the wrong way to increase difficulty.

I don't see it as being a wrong way...it might not be a popular way, but the game seems to capitalize on the thrill of large hoards.  Making it so you can't circumvent the danger of such circumstances doesn't seem like it'd be wrong, especially considering we used to survive these circumstances without IOs.  At best, you could say it's wrong because one couldn't solo those odds.

 

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

Exotic damage is what is in verious Itrials and the apex tf that makes them interesting and requires a change in strategy to the 1-50 content.

Care to elaborate?  I'm actually ignorant on the subject.  I participated in these but I just don't remember much about the exotic damage.

 

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

Are we taking about new content challenge here which I am for making harder in interesting ways.

 

Or are we taking about redesigning the whole game to make coh2? That I'm opposed to.

 

I dont think anything should be done to change the game content thats current.

Me?  Just to clarify, I'm not the OP so I hold different views.  When speaking of hypotheticals, I don't leave anything off the table (or I try not to).  So I could be talking about one, the other, both or neither.  While I can accept something that is flawed, I can also accept that the flaws hurt the product and things could make it different while also accepting that even if fixed, there is no reversing the damage done.

 

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

As for New content, game on.  How will exotic damage make it require different strategy?  See apex only on a larger scale that you cant even answer the attack until you figure out how to survive to the enemy.  Imagine a whole story arc and additional task forces to face the unseen enemy and ultimate threat.

 

Once You blitz past you will at least have a chance facing apex like enemies or even like the ones you face in the Itrials which are no joke as is even without an artillery like barrage before you ever face them.

 

Point is conventional strategy and OP slotting wont matter in the opening phases of this content. But as you push through you turn the tides

 

Isnt that what we are looking for here a challenge thats different without redesigning the game?

With regards to the last question, I feel the suggestion is trying to accomplish a mechanic that doesn't require continuously escalating force in order to challenge the higher end builds.  It's not a specific scenario or engagement but instead a rudimentary aspect of engagement.  

 

As above, I'd suggest elaborating on what you are describing as "exotic damage" so no misunderstandings are had with your suggestion.

[oedipus_tex]

I am not against the possibility of exotic damage in attacks. I think if you start a thread on it you will encounter some people who are really, really against it, based on comments in other threads, but I'm personally ambivalent. I think it can be used well or used poorly, just like the mechanics in any combat system. I'd be willing to mull the details in another thread. 

 

I will say I do like the Apex Task Force a lot. It made some players angry when it first appeared, but the final battle with Battle Maiden stands out to me from a lot of other AV fights, in a mostly good way. 

 

[Infinitum]

7 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I am not against the possibility of exotic damage in attacks. I think if you start a thread on it you will encounter some people who are really, really against it, based on comments in other threads, but I'm personally ambivalent. I think it can be used well or used poorly, just like the mechanics in any combat system. I'd be willing to mull the details in another thread. 

 

I will say I do like the Apex Task Force a lot. It made some players angry when it first appeared, but the final battle with Battle Maiden stands out to me from a lot of other AV fights, in a mostly good way. 

 

Thats part of the problem, there are too many "lets change the game threads"  at least 5 or 6 a week, i think if you want it to be taken seriously it needs to be consolidated.

[Leogunner]

8 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Thats part of the problem, there are too many "lets change the game threads"  at least 5 or 6 a week, i think if you want it to be taken seriously it needs to be consolidated.

I don't see a problem keeping such threads separate since they often cover different subjects. There's usually 1 or 2 threads like this on the front page at a time. That's not a problem. 

[Infinitum]

48 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

I don't see a problem keeping such threads separate since they often cover different subjects. There's usually 1 or 2 threads like this on the front page at a time. That's not a problem. 

I'm sure you don't. 

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

I'm sure you don't. 

I guess you prefer to fill the suggestions forum with threads that suggest something cosmetic or maybe an improvement to a power that isn't controversial so gets maybe 5-8 replies about 3 sentences on average that pretty much agree and cordon off all those nasty nerf suggestions in to one mess of a consolidated mish-mash thread? 

[oedipus_tex]

There was a statement made earlier that a Multi Opponent stat "nerfs defense," so I'd like to explore that.

 

There is lots of existing content that "nerfs defense" if that is the terminology we want to use. I'd call it more "adjusts defense" or "modifies defense" or something similar than "nerfs" though, because nerf is a loaded term that implies the values are overtuned. 

 

Most of the enemies in the ITF, for example, have -Defense in their attacks. -Defense is also prevalent among other enemy factions, like Rularuu. Some members of Nemesis, meanwhile, have access to Vengeance and can punch above their expected values. Devouring Earth have it when they place their totems. It's in the Earth attacks that Circle of Thorns use. There are many other examples. No one seems to have any objections when a new enemy appears with -Defense or -Resist in their attacks.

 

The existing -Defense system relies on two mechanics:

• A players ability to dodge in-coming -Defense attacks
• Defense debuff resistance

Where the +ToHit system relies on:

• Player having enough Defense to still be defended when the soft cap raises

A Multi Opponent stat is not fundamentally more a "nerf" to defense than any of these existing scenarios. All it is different. And IMO fairer than some of the current content. 

[Infinitum]

15 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

I guess you prefer to fill the suggestions forum with threads that suggest something cosmetic or maybe an improvement to a power that isn't controversial so gets maybe 5-8 replies about 3 sentences on average that pretty much agree and cordon off all those nasty nerf suggestions in to one mess of a consolidated mish-mash thread? 

I have actually only started one topic in Suggestions on rewards merits.  Hardly filling it up, seriously can you function without being over the top in attributing things that people don't do or say to them? 

 

Think about it. You are now picking a fight over where I am posting things. Haha. Whatever.