Nature/Dual Pistols shenanigans (Proc Monster lite)

[War_L0ck]

14 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

...under most scenarios people have "solved" their endurance issues and there are relatively few NPCs that will drain it (Malta Sappers being merely one of the more notable exceptions).  Conversely, healing/regeneration is almost always useful...

Is this a late game/incarnate level perspective? Generally speaking--from reading forums and from low to midlevel grouping, I am left with the opposite impression. People usually have Def Caps worked in entirely (especially tanks) or nearly (with multiple group Maneuvers or -To Hits making the difference). And also I've read countless forum posts say this game doesn't require healers--because people can take of their health via procs and defenses. While I don't entirely hold this position, I rarely see green bars dropping rapidly--and healing is usually topping off. However, I do see a lot of low blue bars.

 

Specifically with Nature, you're not saying Lifegiving Spores' +END is bad, so can I infer it isn't? And for healing, Regrowth and Wild Medicine are already doing some work, too. Not trying to be antagonistic, but trying to reconcile your statements to my more limited experience.

Edited May 23, 2020 by War_L0ck

[Darkir]

12 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

In my case, the reason for the slotting in the Mind Over Vegetable(s) build was to put the Panacea Proc into it (because that will proc boost everyone buffed by the power!) while also scoring the full 6-slot set bonus into the bargain.  That's why I didn't put any Endurance Modification into the power.  Besides, in most scenarios (not all, granted, but most) it's more valuable to have stronger healing/regeneration in a power like Lifegiving Spores than endurance modification, simply because under most scenarios people have "solved" their endurance issues and there are relatively few NPCs that will drain it (Malta Sappers being merely one of the more notable exceptions).  Conversely, healing/regeneration is almost always useful, whether soloing or in groups, as a way of mitigating incoming damage (which tends to happen, even when playing City of Statues).

 

So to summarize, the "need" for endurance recovery boosting is often times not as ... pressing ... as the need for healing/regeneration can tend to be.

This and you have overgrowth so the endurance needs of the team should not be an issue. If this was a leveling or exemplar build, I would also put a panacea proc in it as then you get the healing and the endurance. 

 

I don't actually use life giving spores all that often, only when fighting an EB or AV. Most of the time it's just easier to cast overgrowth and move on.

[Darkir]

6 minutes ago, War_L0ck said:

Is this a late game/incarnate level perspective? Generally speaking--from reading forums and from low to midlevel grouping, I am left with the opposite impression. People usually have Def Caps worked in entirely (especially tanks) or nearly (with multiple group Maneuvers or -To Hits making the difference). And also I've read countless forum posts say this game doesn't require healers--because people can take of their health via procs and defenses. While I don't entirely hold this position, I rarely see green bars dropping rapidly--and healing is usually topping off. However, I do see a lot of low blue bars.

 

Specifically with Nature, you're not saying Lifegiving Spores' +END is bad, so can I infer it isn't? And for healing, Regrowth and Wild Medicine are already doing some work, too. Not trying to be antagonistic, but trying to reconcile your statements to my more limited experience.

Overgrowth gives a hefty endurance usage buff and so unless you plan to exemplar past lvl 27 it shouldn't be much of an issue for your team. If you plan to exemplar lower than 27, put the panacea proc in it.

[War_L0ck]

Thanks, @Darkir. I'm still in my 20s, and I haven't seen how effective Overgrowth is yet. So I think while leveling it makes sense to slot Lifegiving Spores for Endurance Mod (and include Spore Cloud in my build). Even when I get to Overgrowth, it's not going to be near perma for some time (Geyser is late). Maybe I'll try for now using a couple of non set End Mod IOs and a Panacea Proc and a regular heal or two.

 

One more question about proc IOs--Force Feedback, Panacea, Preventive Medicine procs--I don't think these get stronger/better with higher level versions of the enhancements, right? If they do not, then I presume it makes sense to get the lowest level version for exemplaring? For Preventive Medicine, does the proc only affect you and not anyone you heal?--and how much does it absorb (forum-fu failing me).

 

Thank you both for the education :).

Edited May 23, 2020 by War_L0ck

[Darkir]

2 hours ago, War_L0ck said:

Thanks, @Darkir. I'm still in my 20s, and I haven't seen how effective Overgrowth is yet. So I think while leveling it makes sense to slot Lifegiving Spores for Endurance Mod (and include Spore Cloud in my build). Even when I get to Overgrowth, it's not going to be near perma for some time (Geyser is late). Maybe I'll try for now using a couple of non set End Mod IOs and a Panacea Proc and a regular heal or two.

 

One more question about proc IOs--Force Feedback, Panacea, Preventive Medicine procs--I don't think these get stronger/better with higher level versions of the enhancements, right? If they do not, then I presume it makes sense to get the lowest level version for exemplaring? For Preventive Medicine, does the proc only affect you and not anyone you heal?--and how much does it absorb (forum-fu failing me).

 

Thank you both for the education :).

Get the attuned versions, that way you can slot them and they level with you. 

 

Who procs affect is based on the power and the power. For lifegiving spores, they affect anyone (including you) in the area of effect most of the time. The preventive medicine proc works differently, if you slot it in any power it will only affect yourself and the proc is based on your own current hp and has nothing to do with if or when you use the power.

[War_L0ck]

8 minutes ago, Darkir said:

Get the attuned versions, that way you can slot them and they level with you. 

 

Who procs affect is based on the power and the power. For lifegiving spores, they affect anyone (including you) in the area of effect most of the time. The preventive medicine proc works differently, if you slot it in any power it will only affect yourself and the proc is based on your own current hp and has nothing to do with if or when you use the power.

Thanks for the explanation of Preventive Medicine. As for my other question, I often do use attuned IOs--but my point is, if FF lvl 20 IO is 2 procs per minute--and the lvl 50 is 2 procs per minute, then might as well get the lvl 20 version--right--especially if cheaper? This is a specific case to proc based IO that gives a set % recharge.

Edited May 23, 2020 by War_L0ck

[Darkir]

2 hours ago, War_L0ck said:

Thanks for the explanation of Preventive Medicine. As for my other question, I often do use attuned IOs--but my point is, if FF lvl 20 IO is 2 procs per minute--and the lvl 50 is 2 procs per minute, then might as well get the lvl 20 version--right--especially if cheaper? This is a specific case to proc based IO that gives a set % recharge.

Well, it shouldn't be cheaper. I'm pretty sure that all the io recipes are the same from 1-50, this was a change homecoming made for ease of use. I'm also pretty sure that buying it attuned or not, is the same io and price. The reason to buy non-attuned ios is to +5 them. The reason to buy a lvl 20 io is to +5 it and keep the set bonuses up to lvl 15 exemplared. While we are on the subject though, never buy attuned purple IOs, they never stop giving their bonuses and so there is no reason to attune them and negate their ability to be +5'd. The only reason to not +5 purple IOs, beyond money, is to not increase +recharge and therefore not mess with proc chances. 

Edited May 23, 2020 by Darkir

[War_L0ck]

1 minute ago, Darkir said:

Well, it shouldn't be cheaper. I thought that all the io recipes were the same from 1-50, that was a change homecoming made for ease of use. I'm also pretty sure that buying it attuned or not, is the same io and price. The reason to buy non-attuned ios is to +5 them. While we are on the subject though, never buy attuned purple IOs, they never stop giving their bonuses and so there is no reason to attune them and negat their ability to be +5'd. The only reason to not +5 purple IOs, beyond money, is to not increase +recharge and therefore not mess with proc chances. 

Yes, recipes are the same regardless of level, but attuned already crafted enhancements can be comparable to recipe price---or vastly more expensive. I got the FF recipe earlier for 20K, and the Attuned FF was 2-3 million. Anyway, thanks for the tip on the purples.

[Sir Myshkin]

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Edited May 26, 2020 by Sir Myshkin
snipped out, not sure why the forum posted the same thing three times.

[Sir Myshkin]

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Edited May 26, 2020 by Sir Myshkin
snipped out, not sure why the forum posted the same thing three times.

[Sir Myshkin]

On 5/22/2020 at 3:33 PM, Darkir said:

Ah, ok. Well, wall of force will proc FF, but not at the rate of water burst (10 second recharge vs water burst's 16 second recharge). Shockwave has the same problem, it's 8 second recharge is not ideal for proccing FF either. Compare this to Water burst's 16 second recharge (it goes down to about 4 seconds) and geyser's 125 recharge (which you can get down to a little more or a little less than 30 seconds depending on recharge). So it will work to replace it to some extent, but not that well. Another problem is getting the same overall recharge and still getting to the def softcap without combat jumping/stealth/hover. Defense powers serve as a kind of double use in today's IO world, you get recharge and defense out of them (7.5% for LoTG or 5% for red fortune 5 slotted or both for 12.5%). So I would say shockwave and wall of force are poor FF proc replacements for water's options.

Cones and (T/P)AoE's factor in more than just recharge they also take into consideration range, radius, and how many targets are inside the effect zone. Essentially my simplest way of breaking those abilities down is: If there are less than 5, you've got a 40-ish% likelihood of proccing, if there's 10+ in the effect, it's almost gauranteed.

 

Now that's not a mathematical rule of thumb, but when testing something so often the pattern starts to be more relevant and my experiences showed that so long as I caught at least 10 targets within any effect there was a pretty strong chance for it to go off, regardless of what the base values were (although in most of those cases I was also avoiding recharge enhancement as best possible) body count matters more than any of the other factors for those types of attacks.

 

Also, just having one solid Cone/AoE with FF+Rech that can be fired off regularly will suffice, but can be very tedious to spam the same thing, and if body count drops there's lowered chances to proc, so being able to at least spam two back to back is more helpful, but not really necessary.