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Proc Monsters - Tanker Edition


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What is a Proc Monster? A build type bent on maximizing proc opportunities within a singular AT through specific sets that have the most potential for proc chances. Typically this would narrow down to sets that can bend at least 2, up to 5, procs in a singular power to exceed the normal limitations of that power, and do this with multiple powers within a given set. Each AT has a handful of sets that provide the most opportunities to do this, and through this path will carry those sets to a new level of performance outside their original design. We do this by maximizing global recharge, and minimize enhanced recharge by as much as possible. The proc formula was studied by Bopper and he has the formulas posted here.

 

So Tankers now, Eh?

In the journey so far, I have visited the realms of Defenders and Controllers, studying both Primary and Secondary power sets and extrapolating from them unique opportunities for proc-maximization within the individual ATs. As a result Support Sets, Control Sets, and Blast Sets, along with Epics for Controllers and Defenders, have been analyzed and reviewed accordingly. The impact of that study uniquely plays in part to Corruptors--being the mirror reverse of Defenders--blast sets for Blasters/Sentinels, and Control sets for Dominators. The further down this pipe-line I go, the more each individualized study starts to overlap with other sets. It was requested by several that the next avenue I approach be Tankers in an attempt to find, and breathe, new life into the AT with this monstrous approach.

 

Tankers are to the Melee as Defenders are to Support: the biggest bang-for-buck investment in their focus area. For Tankers, that is Defensive Sets. Just as I did with Defenders, I'll go through the primary choices and look for sets that can optimize a Proc build in the most effective way possible, even potentially look for proc-capability within that primary to continue building upon the ability of a Tanker Proc Monster. To do this, there are a few key areas that have to be focused on:

  • The ability to maximize a defensive solution.
    • Can I find a path to cap Resistances or Soft Cap Defenses (or both) within the build, exclusively within the primary itself without relying (or minimizing reliance) on the secondary.
  • Develop a reasonable curve of Global Recharge.
    • Some secondary sets wont need a huge amount of viable global recharge, but in most cases there's a bottom line that has to be achieved to make a valid and justifiable attack chain. The most proc opportunities, the better.
    • Be as self-sustaining as possible without reliance on an Alpha slot or Ageless to modify recharge values within a set. In some cases Ageless becomes a necessity just to manage endurance, which may be unavoidable, but I prefer to look for every build avenue that provides the most flexibility to player choices when choosing those "end game" abilities. If a Proc Monster build can be made viable without forcing the use of Ageless, Agility, or Spiritual, then all the better; especially considering Agility and Spiritual both negatively impact proc probability.
  • Be viable in difficult content.
    • This is a bit of a "new rule" for this process as I was previously doing it as a standard practice, but also realized that some folks weren't looking at difficulty as part of the capacity, which could change viability of a build depending on how it gets slotted.
    • My process here has, and will be, viability against +4 content. Alpha slotting changes this to altering 90% of the game to a max potential of +3 until a player gets into Incarnate shifted content, but then they also get impacted by another level shift with additional abilities slotted. This difference causes a value shift of "can it play +4 without Incarnates" and "how does it perform with Incarnates."
    • My biggest thing is validity of the build in the leveling process, and how capping it off with Incarnate content gives it the next push. I want these builds to be playable all the way through. Given very little PvP or Catalyzed enhancements tend to get used, this makes it very possible to achieve.

 

In that process of how these builds get created, I will be looking at areas for Proc Opportunities that may be unique, untested, or "game breaking" in their effect. I will test for consistency of effect, as well as general viability of a build. Any oddities or interesting effects I report back, and we move on to the next test. Now, Tankers--and Melee sets in general--are typically a lot more straight forward about their abilities with Procs, there's a lot less "do we know how this works?" type of questions. The biggest thing here is going to be looking for how much, and in what means possible, can we improve damage performance, and/or general performance of Tanks to make them a more viable damage-dealing machine. Tankers will have the easiest path of success, and likely the largest benefit of building a Proc-centered build. They'll be less reliant on additional support powers like Maneuvers, Combat Jumping, etc, to fill in gaps, which is important. We're going to need every power pick we can get, and every slot we can spare. The average Proc Monster build for Tankers is going to need 30 slots just for attacks alone, which doesn't leave us with a lot of wiggle room on everything else.

 

The Shakedown

Lets take a look at the primary choices we have, and see where there's opportunity to maximize potential. We'll effectively have a Naughty or Nice list.

 

  • Bio Armor
    • Not gonna lie, this was one of the first sets I thought of. It has a lot of survival tools at its disposal, and Offensive Adaptation helps boost damage potential even further. The big hat-trick is going to be whether this set can be built to max potential without relying on crazy slotting or set bonuses.
  • Dark Armor
    • I know from detailed experience that Dark Armor can be made into a ridiculous power-house set, but a lot of that exaggerated performance comes from stacking a ton of set bonuses in weird places. This might not lend itself well to the utility of Procs. The set does, however, have four abilities within its grasp that have proc potential, and could be worth the exploration even if not full maximized.
  • Electric Armor
    • Just like Dark Armor, not a lot of defensive aspects here so very reliant on building up those Resistances, but EA has Lightning Reflexes which is a key power to helping build that global recharge. This set also has Energize, which if kept perma would help massively balance endurance usage across the set, along with Power Sink. If we can play to the strengths, there's a lot of useful tools here.
  • Fiery Aura
    • The classic farmer set. Consume, Burn, lot of proc tools, endurance boosting, damage, damage, damage. We'll see what we can do in maximizing Resistance sets.
  • Ice Armor
    • All it takes is faith, trust, and a little bit of icicle dust. Ice Armor is admittedly one of my favorite sets and I am fully knowledge that this set can reach soft cap defenses on SO's, let alone what IO's can bring to the table. This is an easy contender for making beastly Proc Monsters.
  • Invulnerability
    • A mixed bag of res and def based tools, but one of those tools is built-in +ToHit, which is super important in trying to supplement accuracy for these builds.
  • Radiation Armor
    • Not a fan of enemy dependent self-buffs, but this set does have a potentially big +Rech aspect with Beta Decay, and quite a few areas where procs can be dropped within the primary to have even further built-in booms. Plus a sprinkle of recovery options too, could be good. I've found that a lot of the "newer" sets that were designed in the late years of the game seem to be a lot more fluid with how they correspond with proc mechanics compared to earlier sets. This could be an interesting bit of research.
  • Regeneration
    • This set really sings with global recharge through the roof, but it tends to rely heavily on the attack set paired with it to get there. Also needs a lot more TLC to build those extra defense values that may make this too difficult to validate for Proc Monster use.
  • Shield Defense
    • A mixed bag of def and res, a worthwhile short-term T9 in a pinch, plus damage boosting? And an AoE?! There's some love coming out proc way with this set.
  • Stone Armor
    • One of the best abilities in the game: Granite. It comes with a -65% Recharge, that's a hard pass. Sorry Stone Armor, you're just flat-out not cut for this kind of work.
  • Super Reflexes
    • Super easy to hit soft cap. Super easy to build recharge with Quickness giving us a +20% push. Access to the full array of LotG +7.5%. This thing practically writes its own love letters to Proc Monsters.
  • Willpower
    • What we hoped for in Regen, maybe we can find here.

 

Breaking this list down into some core features: Ability to max performance, positive increases in needed stats, proc potential, I have a core initial list I expect to be more on the front-lines of "best choice."

  • Super Reflexes
  • Ice Armor
  • Shield Defense
  • Radiation Armor
  • Bio Armor

 

That CVS Receipt of Secondaries

There's a ton of options in attack sets for Melee players. 22 sets in total. Unlike Controllers and Defenders, that's a lot of data points to look at. Also much unlike Controllers and Defenders, most of those set operate pretty much the same way. A handful of core ST attacks, 1, maybe 2 AoE/Cone of some time, possibly a support/mez tool of some variant, and that's it. Given this fact, trying to scope through these will be a lot easier, especially considering Melee attacks, in particular ST ones, already have a huge bucket of procs they can take; being a Tank that adds another in the Taunt set, so we have more proc possibilities than we have slots. Told you we'd need 30 to get this thing done.

 

Given there's so. many. choices. available, I have to look more closely as the individual attacks within those sets and look for unique attributes that may not have common application, or to look at powers that typically are considered worthless/undervalued, and see what differences Procs may bring to the table. It's like Ice Arrow from the Trick Arrow support set, a non-damaging ability when slotted up with all the Hold procs suddenly does more damage per activation than a T1, T2, or T3 blast attack. That's nuts! I will also be looking more closely at known under performers, and seeing what Procs do to change the state of play on those sets. With how long a list of powers and sets that all is, I wont be breaking those down individually, but looking for those options and finding the unique cases and bringing those back here.

 

And when I say "unique" I'm looking at things like the recently discovered possibility of Radiation Melee's Contaminated effect spreading proc chances on the subsequent chained targets. Or making sure that Chain Induction works for Melee as Jolting Chain did for Controllers.

 

Footnote: With test being altered for the shift of a live-patch, certain items and abilities (Incarnates) are turned off. Since I'm reliant on doing the bulk of these tests on the Beta server, until these features get turned on, actual full-physical testing will be delayed. I will be working on builds to test in the mean time, of course, but actual posted feedback will be delayed.

 

I will also say that this run with Proc Monsters will be a lot more about showing how to build them, more than finding oddities in the ranks. Overall time span I spend on this run will be more dependant on building and reviewing potential, than really experimenting with every single set as that'd take a far more considerable length of time than anyone might be interested in sitting through. Controllers was broken down into four core tests with about eight core builds, and a slew of variant builds and still took about two weeks to roll through. If I did even half of the attack sets in variant builds, that'd be 3-4 weeks minimum, and probably a lot of redundancy in testing. So I'm looking for key experiences here.

 

Throw Your Hat Into The Ring

If you're a player with some extra time on your hands and want to run some trials with a Proc Monster build on the test server, give me a shout. I'd be happy to toss out a build here and there for folks to test drive and send back the logs. All I need is damage/combat logs to monitor procs, a few timed tests against a Pylon in the RWZ, and survival testing against 54's (typically Rikti since there's bunches of them in the RWZ anyway). I try and do this all myself, but if we really want to explore all 22 sets, I'll need the extra help.

 

Also, if you feel you've encountered a mechanic that seems off or weird, let me know on that too. Again, this boils down to there being so many secondaries to work with, even though I have experience with 80% of them, we're talking about bending and breaking Procs in new ways, so there might be something out there that wouldn't have been casually noticed or considered (ie: Rad Melee and Containment).

 

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While doing your research for potential melee sets, I wanted to throw in Titan Weapons for consideration. It has a lot of attacks with fairly large base recharges, and the cast times are very slow. But with Momentum, those cast times are reduced significantly. 

 

Defensive Sweep:   2.2 second cast time (reduced to 1 second with momentum)

Crushing Blow:   2 sec (1.2 sec)

Titan Sweep:   2.43 sec (1 sec)

Follow Through requires Momentum, 1 sec cast time

Rend Armor:   2.3 sec (1.3 sec)

Whirling Smash requires Momentum, 1 sec cast time

Arc of Destruction:   2.7 sec (1.5 sec)

 

The combination of fast cast times and long base recharges can result in very strong Proc attack chains. Plus, although Defensive Sweep will be one of the worst T1 powers for Procs (because it is an AoE, but you'll still be forced to use for the Bruised inherent), but it can slot a LotG and provide you some good melee/smash defense for 10 seconds (same duration as your Bruised power) which could be helpful if you are using a resistance focused armor.

 

Finally, the set has a blend of defense debuff and knockdown powers which could lend itself to some -Resistance debuff and +Recharge procs. The use of Defensive Sweep and Rend Armor with an Achilles proc will reliably give you a 50% resistance debuff on your target.

 

Anyways, it's food for thought.

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PPM Information Guide                Survivability Tool                  Interface DoT Procs Guide

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Movement Speed: Guide              Recharge Guide                   Base Empowerment: Temp Powers


Bopper's Tools & Formulas           RubyRed's API Tool              Mids' Reborn                       

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2 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Also much unlike Controllers and Defenders, most of those set operate pretty much the same way. A handful of core ST attacks, 1, maybe 2 AoE/Cone of some time, possibly a support/mez tool of some variant, and that's it. Given this fact, trying to scope through these will be a lot easier, especially considering Melee attacks, in particular ST ones, already have a huge bucket of procs they can take; being a Tank that adds another in the Taunt set, so we have more proc possibilities than we have slots. Told you we'd need 30 to get this thing done.

The primary doesn't actually matter nearly as much as the secondary.

 

What you're looking for:

  • A way to get a decent ranged attack and Hold attack, allowing you to slot Apocalypse and Unbreakable Constraint. Note that any Ranged attack can slot Javelin, Apocalypse and Decimination so it doesn't necessarily need any other special features (although it would be helpful).
  • The combination of Target AE, PBAoE and -def to permit slotting all three -res. Note that target AE can slot Annihilation, Javelin and Positron's, so it's in a situation akin to Ranged attacks.
  • AE that knockdown (and preferably not >= 1 MAG so you don't have to reduce it).
  • A long recharge first power. Tankers must take the first power. Moreover, because it has -20% resist attached, they must use it.

The sets:

  • Battle Axe (KD AE)
  • Broadsword (First Power, -Def)
  • Claws (-Def, KD Cone AE)
  • Dark Melee (none)
  • Dual Blades (-Def, KD Cone AE)
  • Electrical (KB/KD AE). Chain Induction likely works like Jolting Chain.
  • Energy (First Power)
  • Fire (none)
  • Ice (Hold, Target AE)
  • Katana (First power, -Def)
  • Kinetic (KB Target AE, Ranged)
  • Martial Arts (KD AE, -Def)
  • Psionic (KD AE, Hold)
  • Radiation (-Def). Note that the Contaminated Mechanic makes Radioactive Smash into a pseudo-AE while Contaminated Ground has double proc rate.
  • Savage (-Def)
  • Spines (Ranged)
  • Staff (KD AE, Ranged)
  • Stone (KD AE, Ranged, Hold)
  • Street Justice (KD AE)
  • Super Strength (KD AE, Ranged, Hold)
  • Titan Weapons (KD AE, -Def). First power is a Cone.
  • War Mace (KD Cone AE)

Epic/Patron pools can compensate for some of these issues. Without going through them all, I'd call out the following:

  • Earth. A Ranged -Def attack. Also a Hold and a target AE on excessively long recharges.
  • Energy. This provides Focused Accuracy to reduce accuracy/hit issues, a -def Ranged attack and endurance mitigation.
  • Mace Mastery. Focused Accuracy and a KB Target AE (on a regrettably long 32 sec recharge).
  • Pyre Mastery. This has all of the Blast set abilities (ranged, Hold, target AE), but they're on large recharges.
  • Soul Mastery. This has the best of the Ranged attacks from pools and arguably the best target AE (slightly less damage than Fireball, but with a -hit debuff attached for Cloud Senses).

The first problem arises from our desire to get a long recharge first power. All of the 'First Power' sets (by which I mean a first power with a longer recharge than their second power, although each of those sets also has a first power with a longer recharge than any non-First Power set) are otherwise awful for our purposes with few of the features we need. I'd argue that this probably means we need to strike "First Power" from our list of considerations since we can't realistically meet it. Moreover, it's not all that critical a concern because we need to slot full sets somewhere (accuracy/recharge bonuses, ATOs, etc.)

 

The next most rarefied ability is Hold. As I mentioned, this can be obtained from Epic/Patron pools. However, only one of the Holds is very competitive in terms of activation time (Char) and all of the Holds are on 32 sec recharges. Since we can't afford slots for internal recharge in our Hold, any Hold with longer than a 12 sec recharge will lose value on Unbreakable Constraint and any hold with longer than a 15.4 sec recharge will lose value on all procs (due to capped proc chance). Our 4 Holds:

  • Greater Psi Blade (15 sec recharge, 69.8 dpa)
  • Freezing Touch (16 sec recharge, 109.2 dpa)
  • Seismic Smash (20 sec recharge, 92.3 dpa). Note: This is a MAG 4 Hold
  • Knockout Blow (25 sec recharge, 66.6 dpa)

Ice's lack of KB AE makes it my least favorite choice on that list. Super Strength is otherwise a strong choice, but it's Hold is not. Given that, I'd argue that Psionic/Soul and Stone/Energy as a first-pass choice. Of those, I think Stone/Energy is the likely the better choice since it has multiple KB AE to keep near-permanent Force Feedback going.

 

On primaries, I think Bio is a standout. It has a damage aura, you can slot multiple non-accurate heal sets (provides significant boosts to recharge), and it provides a predictable hit bonus (unlike Invulnerability, whose hit bonus can't be relied upon since it scales with number of enemies). The biggest issue with Bio would be that it's not a particularly strong set from the standpoint of actually tanking (no defense debuff resistance, wonky mix of defense and resist).

 

An "I really wanted to be a Scrapper" (i.e. minimal emphasis on survivability) approach like so:

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Hero Hero Designer 2.23

https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

 

Click this DataLink to open the build!

 

Level 50 Magic Tanker

Primary Power Set: Bio Armor

Secondary Power Set: Stone Melee

Power Pool: Leaping

Power Pool: Fighting

Power Pool: Speed

Power Pool: Leadership

Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

 

Hero Profile:

Level 1: Hardened Carapace

  • (A) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
  • (3) Unbreakable Guard - +Max HP
  • (3) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance
  • (5) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance
     

Level 1: Stone Fist

  • (A) Superior Gauntleted Fist - Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime
  • (5) Superior Gauntleted Fist - Damage/RechargeTime
  • (7) Superior Gauntleted Fist - Accuracy/Damage/RechargeTime
  • (7) Superior Gauntleted Fist - RechargeTime/+Absorb
  • (9) Superior Gauntleted Fist - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime
  • (9) Superior Gauntleted Fist - Accuracy/Damage
     

Level 2: Inexhaustible

  • (A) Numina's Convalesence - +Regeneration/+Recovery
  • (11) Numina's Convalesence - Heal
  • (11) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End
  • (13) Performance Shifter - EndMod
     

Level 4: Environmental Modification

  • (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
  • (17) Kismet - Accuracy +6%
  • (17) Reactive Defenses - Scaling Resist Damage
  • (19) Reactive Defenses - Defense
  • (19) Reactive Defenses - Defense/Endurance
     

Level 6: Adaptation

 

Level 8: Ablative Carapace

  • (A) Preventive Medicine - Chance for +Absorb
  • (21) Preventive Medicine - Heal/RechargeTime/Endurance
  • (21) Preventive Medicine - Heal
  • (23) Preventive Medicine - Heal/Endurance
  • (23) Preventive Medicine - Endurance/RechargeTime
  • (25) Preventive Medicine - Heal/RechargeTime
     

Level 10: Taunt

  • (A) Perfect Zinger - Chance for Psi Damage
  • (43) Perfect Zinger - Accuracy/Recharge
  • (43) Perfect Zinger - Taunt/Recharge/Range
  • (43) Perfect Zinger - Taunt/Recharge
  • (46) Perfect Zinger - Taunt
  • (50) Perfect Zinger - Taunt/Range
     

Level 12: Evolving Armor

  • (A) Gladiator's Armor - Recharge/Resist
  • (25) Gladiator's Armor - Resistance
  • (27) Gladiator's Armor - End/Resist
     

Level 14: Combat Jumping

  • (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
     

Level 16: Build Up

  • (A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up
     

Level 18: Kick

  • (A) Empty
     

Level 20: Tough

  • (A) Aegis - Psionic/Status Resistance
  • (27) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance
  • (29) Aegis - Resistance
     

Level 22: Weave

  • (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
  • (34) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All)
  • (34) Shield Wall - Defense/Endurance
  • (34) Shield Wall - Defense
     

Level 24: Hasten

  • (A) Recharge Reduction IO
  • (29) Recharge Reduction IO
     

Level 26: Genetic Contamination

  • (A) Superior Might of the Tanker - Recharge/Chance for +Res(All)
  • (31) Superior Might of the Tanker - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
  • (31) Superior Might of the Tanker - Accuracy/Damage
  • (31) Superior Might of the Tanker - Damage/Recharge
  • (33) Superior Might of the Tanker - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
  • (33) Superior Might of the Tanker - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
     

Level 28: Maneuvers

  • (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
  • (37) Reactive Defenses - Defense
  • (40) Reactive Defenses - Defense/Endurance
     

Level 30: Tactics

  • (A) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff
  • (33) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff/Endurance
     

Level 32: DNA Siphon

  • (A) Empty
     

Level 35: Tremor

  • (A) Armageddon - Damage
  • (36) Armageddon - Damage/Endurance
  • (36) Armageddon - Chance for Fire Damage
  • (36) Fury of the Gladiator - Chance for Res Debuff
  • (37) Perfect Zinger - Chance for Psi Damage
  • (37) Force Feedback - Chance for +Recharge
     

Level 38: Seismic Smash

  • (A) Hecatomb - Damage
  • (39) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge
  • (39) Hecatomb - Chance of Damage(Negative)
  • (39) Neuronic Shutdown - Chance of Damage(Psionic)
  • (40) Ghost Widow's Embrace - Chance of Damage(Psionic)
  • (40) Unbreakable Constraint - Chance for Smashing Damage
     

Level 41: Focused Accuracy

  • (A) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff
  • (42) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff/Endurance
  • (42) Adjusted Targeting - Endurance/Recharge
  • (42) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff/Endurance/Recharge
     

Level 44: Laser Beam Eyes

  • (A) Apocalypse - Damage
  • (45) Apocalypse - Damage/Endurance
  • (45) Gladiator's Javelin - Chance of Damage(Toxic)
  • (45) Apocalypse - Chance of Damage(Negative)
  • (46) Touch of Lady Grey - Chance for Negative Damage
  • (46) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff
     

Level 47: Energy Torrent

  • (A) Ragnarok - Damage
  • (48) Ragnarok - Damage/Endurance
  • (48) Annihilation - Chance for Res Debuff
  • (48) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy)
  • (50) Explosive Strike - Chance for Smashing Damage
  • (50) Force Feedback - Chance for +Recharge
     

Level 49: Vengeance

  • (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
     

Level 2: Health

  • (A) Panacea - +Hit Points/Endurance
  • (13) Miracle - +Recovery
     

Level 2: Hurdle

  • (A) Empty
     

Level 2: Stamina

  • (A) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End
  • (15) Performance Shifter - EndMod
  • (15) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Recharge
     

Level 6: Defensive Adaptation

 

Level 6: Efficient Adaptation 

Level 6: Offensive Adaptation 

Level 50: Intuition Radial Paragon 

------------

 

Edited by Hjarki
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I'd probably start with an Elec/Stone/Soul. Why?

  • It's pretty easy to hard cap S/L/E/F/C Resistances on Elec Armor, especially on a Tank. +Res bonuses rarely require 5/6 slotting sets which also leaves room for procs.
  • Elec also provides you with Endurance management tools and global Rech, both of which are pretty useful if you want to focus on slotting procs
  • Stone melee gets a really good hold attack and it can slot several Force Feedbacks into an attack chain. 
  • Soul mostly for Gloom as it can take Apoc + proc or 3 damage procs + Decimation (4 + Deci if it can take taunt sets). You can also get Dark Oblit for a purple set opportunity.

Torchbearer:

Sunsinger - Fire/Time Corruptor

Cursebreaker - TW/Elec Brute

Coldheart - Ill/Cold Controller

Mythoclast - Rad/SD Scrapper

 

Give a man a build export and you feed him for a day, teach him to build and he's fed for a lifetime.

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1 hour ago, Bopper said:

While doing your research for potential melee sets, I wanted to throw in Titan Weapons for consideration. It has a lot of attacks with fairly large base recharges, and the cast times are very slow. But with Momentum, those cast times are reduced significantly. 

The problem with Titan Weapons is that it's an 'insular' set in the sense that it really pays to only use Titan Weapons attacks.

 

But that's not actually what you want to do if you're optimizing procs. One part of your ST attack chain should be ranged (for Apocalypse). Part of your AE attack chain should be target AE (for Annihilation).

 

I do think that Titan Weapons is such a strong overall set that it might simply out-damage a more carefully optimized 'proc monster', but I'm not sure I'd consider it a particularly proc-friendly set.

 

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One power I'd like examined that hasn't received much attention is Arctic Breath from Leviathan Mastery, as it has a base 88% proc rate for 3.5PPM, can fit two -res procs and 4 regular damage procs on top of having -res built in. It has a low enough cooldown to be usable almost every 10 seconds, which would fit perfectly with the duration of the -res debuffs and fits comfortably into a rotation, potentially adding a -55% resistance debuff to it (-50% on average). I think on sets that can't fit an achilles' proc like Super Strength and Stone Melee this has potential if you manage to build the recharge up high enough.

 

Here's a first draft, recharge might be enough between ageless and cross punch to run:

 

Stone Fist > Arctic Breath > Seismic Smash > Heavy Mallet > Cross Punch > Stone Fist > Seismic Smash > Heavy Mallet

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.1
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Bio Armor
Secondary Power Set: Stone Melee

Edited by Auroxis
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4 hours ago, Hjarki said:

The problem with Titan Weapons is that it's an 'insular' set in the sense that it really pays to only use Titan Weapons attacks.

 

But that's not actually what you want to do if you're optimizing procs. One part of your ST attack chain should be ranged (for Apocalypse). Part of your AE attack chain should be target AE (for Annihilation).

 

I do think that Titan Weapons is such a strong overall set that it might simply out-damage a more carefully optimized 'proc monster', but I'm not sure I'd consider it a particularly proc-friendly set.

 

I don't believe that's true. Unless I'm reading it wrong, Fast Mode lasts for 5 seconds which should provide you more than enough time to fit in another attack (Char, Fireball, etc) in between TW attacks and still keep Momentum going. 

 

I could be wrong, though. Perhaps using anything outside of TW will result in breaking Momentum. I just haven't seen that stated anywhere.


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5 hours ago, Hjarki said:

I do think that Titan Weapons is such a strong overall set that it might simply out-damage a more carefully optimized 'proc monster', but I'm not sure I'd consider it a particularly proc-friendly set.

 

I think that TW should be consider as a level of damage to reach cause it seems to just outperfom any other sets.

 

If OP can reach the dps of TW without procs by "customized" an attack set, it would be a performance.

Edited by Tsuko
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1 hour ago, Bopper said:

I don't believe that's true. Unless I'm reading it wrong, Fast Mode lasts for 5 seconds which should provide you more than enough time to fit in another attack (Char, Fireball, etc) in between TW attacks and still keep Momentum going. 

 

I could be wrong, though. Perhaps using anything outside of TW will result in breaking Momentum. I just haven't seen that stated anywhere.

No, this is the way it works.

 

But to make it work, you need a complete rotation that fits into that 5 second window - and then other elements compatible with using them outside of the 5 sec window. The timing just doesn't work very well since you need to synchronize both aspects.

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26 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

No, this is the way it works.

 

But to make it work, you need a complete rotation that fits into that 5 second window - and then other elements compatible with using them outside of the 5 sec window. The timing just doesn't work very well since you need to synchronize both aspects.

I haven't looked hard enough but I would think Rend Armor would be used on cooldown, which should be every 5 seconds when global recharge is high enough. If not, one of the other TW attacks that reset fast mode could be plugged in.


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3 hours ago, Bopper said:

I haven't looked hard enough but I would think Rend Armor would be used on cooldown, which should be every 5 seconds when global recharge is high enough. If not, one of the other TW attacks that reset fast mode could be plugged in.

To optimize dps, you want to trigger momentum and then spend the next 5 seconds exploiting it. This creates 'blocks' of time where you don't want to do anything else but use Titan Weapons attacks. However, in order to optimize procs, you need non-Titan Weapons attacks (it has no ranged attack or hold for Apoc/UB, for example) in your rotation - and that forces you to waste momentum on non-TW attacks.

 

 

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Just now, Hjarki said:

To optimize dps, you want to trigger momentum and then spend the next 5 seconds exploiting it. This creates 'blocks' of time where you don't want to do anything else but use Titan Weapons attacks. However, in order to optimize procs, you need non-Titan Weapons attacks (it has no ranged attack or hold for Apoc/UB, for example) in your rotation - and that forces you to waste momentum on non-TW attacks.

 

 

In a non-proc environment, sure, optimize dps by maximizing Momentum. But if Char can do more dps with its 2 purple procs and 4 other damage procs (+451 average proc damage), perhaps you can throw that into your attack chain. Unless sprinkling in attacks from other sets will break momentum, I don't see the issue. DPS optimization will always come from most average damage per second, no matter where that damage comes from.

 

Overall, a hierarchy attack chain should be used. The limfac will be Defensive Sweep which must be used every 10 seconds to keep up the -20% resistance debuff. Rend Armor should be used whenever on cooldown as it hits like a truck and will provide an additional 10% resistance debuff for 8 seconds. If you cannot fit 2 Rend Armor in a 10 second window (which is likely the case), incorporate Arc of Destruction in the attack chain to keep up the Momentum. So between DS, RA, and AoD, we will have a gapless momentum attack chain. From there, fill in the gaps of the attack chain with optimal dpa attacks like Char and Follow Through.

 

I'll need time to theory craft an entire attack chain, but those would be the key points of emphasis I'd look for. Maybe I use Fireball for extra AoE procs and resistance debuffs. Maybe I just use other TW attacks. Either way, I'll look for added value from any source, TW or not.

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7 hours ago, Bopper said:

The limfac will be Defensive Sweep which must be used every 10 seconds to keep up the -20% resistance debuff.

Basically build an attack chain that takes ~10s to animate all of the attacks RELIABLY and just work from there.

 

I was able to do this with Martial Arts for Tankers, which really wants to be running a ~10s attack rotation loop, where a complete "loop" of using each attack ONCE per rotation times out like this (sequencing order can be varied as desired):

  • Thunder Kick (1.056s) (10s -Resist debuff)
  • Storm Kick (1.056s) (10s +Defense buff)
  • Cobra Strike (1.848s)
  • Crippling Axe Kick (1.848s)
  • Dragon's Tail (1.716s)
  • Eagle's Claw (2.772s)
  •     = 10.296s total arcanatime used for animations

Work out something like that for Titan Weapons where you can "routinely" use Momentum for part of the ~10s rotation time and you'll be set for using Defensive Sweep on a "just in time" basis every 10s (or so) to refresh the Bruising debuff.

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19 hours ago, Hjarki said:

What you're looking for:

  • A way to get a decent ranged attack and Hold attack, allowing you to slot Apocalypse and Unbreakable Constraint. Note that any Ranged attack can slot Javelin, Apocalypse and Decimination so it doesn't necessarily need any other special features (although it would be helpful).
  • The combination of Target AE, PBAoE and -def to permit slotting all three -res. Note that target AE can slot Annihilation, Javelin and Positron's, so it's in a situation akin to Ranged attacks.
  • AE that knockdown (and preferably not >= 1 MAG so you don't have to reduce it).
  • A long recharge first power. Tankers must take the first power. Moreover, because it has -20% resist attached, they must use it.

Sure the purple procs have the higher PPM and damage scale, but if the only focus on any build is "go grab the epics for that ranged/hold" then it kind of defeats the point of looking at the set as a whole if you're just going to ignore everything. That build you posted flat out bypassed as much of Stone Melee as it could on its path to grab a ranged attack, totally skipping the fact that Hurl Boulder was in there. Longer animation or not, the whole point in the process is to explore how procs might change or impact those powers in better ways. I've already run into a couple of powers where Procs end up transforming a lower tier ability in a significant way that overshadow others.

 

Not saying one couldn't go down that path, but I'm not going to invalidate the entirety of a set, especially not on all of them, just to fit that mold. With Defenders grabbing Dominate or Char was an easy, casual option that was just one power to help frame out the rest of the attack chain for a handful of options because it was harder to find strong hitting ST attacks. Tankers will have a lot wider option of abilities and procs at their disposal that we need to evaluate.

 

20 hours ago, Bopper said:

While doing your research for potential melee sets, I wanted to throw in Titan Weapons for consideration. It has a lot of attacks with fairly large base recharges, and the cast times are very slow. But with Momentum, those cast times are reduced significantly. 

I agree that this will be an interesting set to evaluate. I'm currently working through the primary sets to find ones that have the best balance and optimal recharge I can pack in. If that set works with Titan Weapons, I'll have my go-to to figure out.

 

11 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Basically build an attack chain that takes ~10s to animate all of the attacks RELIABLY and just work from there.

Given that we already have a foundation for most of these sets for reliable attack-chain options, I plan on looking there for what "should be best" and reflecting how procs change that path. There are going to be oddities like with Holds and other random powers that spike attack options in unique ways.

 

18 hours ago, Auroxis said:

One power I'd like examined that hasn't received much attention is Arctic Breath from Leviathan Mastery, as it has a base 88% proc rate for 3.5PPM, can fit two -res procs and 4 regular damage procs on top of having -res built in. It has a low enough cooldown to be usable almost every 10 seconds, which would fit perfectly with the duration of the -res debuffs and fits comfortably into a rotation, potentially adding a -55% resistance debuff to it (-50% on average). I think on sets that can't fit an achilles' proc like Super Strength and Stone Melee this has potential if you manage to build the recharge up high enough.

I'll have to keep an eye out for testing this and seeing places it might be able to fit in. Any -Res that can get stacked in reasonably will be worth considering for sure.

 

 

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15 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Sure the purple procs have the higher PPM and damage scale, but if the only focus on any build is "go grab the epics for that ranged/hold" then it kind of defeats the point of looking at the set as a whole if you're just going to ignore everything. That build you posted flat out bypassed as much of Stone Melee as it could on its path to grab a ranged attack, totally skipping the fact that Hurl Boulder was in there. Longer animation or not, the whole point in the process is to explore how procs might change or impact those powers in better ways. I've already run into a couple of powers where Procs end up transforming a lower tier ability in a significant way that overshadow others.

I didn't really 'skip the fact'. Hurl Boulder is a better attack than X-Ray, but X-Ray brings -def and apoc proc. Nor, in fact, is it a build I would play since it largely disregards durability (while it's still a Tanker, it doesn't have the kind of comprehensive defenses you'd really want on a Tanker) - it's more proof-of-concept.

 

I'm not sure I agree with your 'whole point' either. We're really looking for key features, not the whole set - indeed, as I've mentioned with Titan Weapons, being force into set-specific mechanics can actually be a hindrance.

 

In terms of the lower tier powers, they're mostly all the same proc-wise. Any melee attack has plenty of slotting options - unlike Blast sets, you don't need specific secondary effects to get enough procs. That's why I made that breakdown of what was actually meaningful (purple procs, KB AE, -resist procs and slow recharge first power). What other significant distinctions do you believe exist?

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10 hours ago, Hjarki said:

I'm not sure I agree with your 'whole point' either. We're really looking for key features, not the whole set - indeed, as I've mentioned with Titan Weapons, being force into set-specific mechanics can actually be a hindrance.

I'm not disregarding that there can, and probably are, key powers or elements that can be sought and built around to find some "optimal specific build that's better than everything else" (not quoting, just emphasizing a general concept). This process I've gone through up to this point has been about finding the areas and sets that have the most significant use for procs within their set, where the most bang can occur, and how to maximize that bang. Some sets just naturally don't benefit from bending procs, like with many of the Blast sets, as they don't get a wide array of options. Many of the melee attack sets do get a ton of options though, so we have a lot more to weed through.

 

We could easily discount "well this doesn't get that, and that doesn't get this, so don't bother with here, here, and here," but your 'proof-of-concept' kind of showed how you just went straight for a specific targetted proc, and skipped anything else. Yeah, sure, packing in an extra -Res proc is going to make any build better, but is that option significantly outweighing the ability to maximize the powers that didn't get taken? "If you don't have a -Res proc in there, you gotta get that Epic!" That's too generalized, too cookie cutter, it doesn't show how a set can be improved if it just chases "that max DPS!" I mean, yeah, I want to show how we can improve that aspect, but also to contrast what things can be done without specifically jamming a power into the build to trigger one event.

 

Take Char as an example. I've looked at trying to toss that in a few times now in the builds I've been working out and theory crafting/prepping. I acknowledge that it can do some good in quite a few places, but its extra long recharge has me kind of going "Eh, this may not really be as significantly worthwhile at that recharge level for some people." Not saying someone shouldn't look at taking it, but some sets have a generally solid curve as lower recharge rates, and Char ends up being a "once in 10-12/s" kind of power. At least with Defenders I had the ability to see that more in the 5-7/s range it became a lot more reliable both as a hold, and an attack. The rest of Fire/Psionic for Defenders is also generally pretty useful, so the epic as a whole isn't really wasted. In many cases with Tankers, some of those options may not add a ton of value, or (as I'm experiencing in trying to find best slot choices), just not have enough slots to stretch them to significant value in conjunction with other abilities.

 

Heck, I thought Plant Control had slot issues. I'm feeling like a slot-starved Kheldian at this point.

 

If I look back at Stone Melee again, there's several powers that can fit a FF+Rech proc into them. Even if it isn't a guaranteed proc every time, cycling those events means there's a lot of opportunity to roll the dice and take advantage of that fact some how. I noticed this impact in just three powers in the Controller Epic. Hurl, Fissure, and Seismic Smash. I was getting FF+Rech procs bounced all over the place just by picking up a chunk of dirt and lobbing it through the air. Just imagine if we could build an attack chain that could take one of those in all its attacks and just speed-chain through things? That's the weirdness I want to find! I want to test that!
 

The thing that's kind of killing me is not having been able to do the full testing on what I rolled as my first test-subject to really show what I'm talking about, but until I can do the "full round" I don't want to let the cat out of the bag as it's been an interesting, and surprisingly fun, twist. I've been able to do (at least) fundamental survival and +4 mob testing as a standard 50 and come back with rate I honestly didn't expect.

 

I think there's going to be more interactions within a set that get missed on too much generalization that'll surprise some people. And like I mentioned before somewhere ...here or...somewhere, I've already fumbled across procs so dramatically changing one power over another that I'll be hitting things for 500-600 damage from a power that has no right to.

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OK

 

I'm kind of suprised nobody gets the AoE potential of  Rad Armor with proc.

Once you get capped res, do you really need to overslott your heal aka Radiation Therapy ? NO. Then what can you do with it ? Proc it up to 5 or 6 !

(it's base accuracy is pretty high and the debuff from Beta Decay, it'll hit every time and proc every time)

Same for  Ground Zero (3 Avalanches + 3 proc) and you got 2 potent mininuke with large area.

My Rad/SS/Soul tank was beastly :

-4 large aoe powers (Foot Stomp, Dark Obliteration, Radiation Therapy, Ground Zero)

-very good ST (Hello Gloom/KO/Haymaker)

 

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1 hour ago, Funkenstein said:

OK

 

I'm kind of suprised nobody gets the AoE potential of  Rad Armor with proc.

Once you get capped res, do you really need to overslott your heal aka Radiation Therapy ? NO. Then what can you do with it ? Proc it up to 5 or 6 !

(it's base accuracy is pretty high and the debuff from Beta Decay, it'll hit every time and proc every time)

Same for  Ground Zero (3 Avalanches + 3 proc) and you got 2 potent mininuke with large area.

My Rad/SS/Soul tank was beastly :

-4 large aoe powers (Foot Stomp, Dark Obliteration, Radiation Therapy, Ground Zero)

-very good ST (Hello Gloom/KO/Haymaker)

 

I think Rad & Bio look to be the immediate stand out primaries on paper.

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2 hours ago, Funkenstein said:

OK

 

I'm kind of suprised nobody gets the AoE potential of  Rad Armor with proc.

Once you get capped res, do you really need to overslott your heal aka Radiation Therapy ? NO. Then what can you do with it ? Proc it up to 5 or 6 !

(it's base accuracy is pretty high and the debuff from Beta Decay, it'll hit every time and proc every time)

Same for  Ground Zero (3 Avalanches + 3 proc) and you got 2 potent mininuke with large area.

My Rad/SS/Soul tank was beastly :

-4 large aoe powers (Foot Stomp, Dark Obliteration, Radiation Therapy, Ground Zero)

-very good ST (Hello Gloom/KO/Haymaker)

 

Dark Armor has a PBAoE damage-heal on a 30 sec recharge and two auras, so it's a strong candidate as well.

 

However, the Armor sets in general aren't nearly as important as the melee sets in terms of procs since most of their powers are simply auto or defensive toggles. Recharges longer than ~90 sec also tend to be a poor use of procs since they usually over-cap the proc chance.

 

You also run into the where-do-I-put-the-ATO issue. You want your armor proc and you probably want your set bonuses from it - but the ATO set has so much recharge that 6-slotting an actual attack power will compromise its effectiveness, so the damage auras are normally a dumping spot for them.

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Here's an Elec/Stone/Soul build I put together pretty quickly. It has capped S/L/E/F/C resists with respectable NE and Psi. Energize should be very close to perma with the Force Feedbacks. As an attack chain I'm pretty sure you should be able to run Seismic Smash > Gloom > Heavy Mallet > Stone Mallet > Gloom > Stone Fist > Stone Mallet.

 

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1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

Dark Armor has a PBAoE damage-heal on a 30 sec recharge and two auras, so it's a strong candidate as well.

 

However, the Armor sets in general aren't nearly as important as the melee sets in terms of procs since most of their powers are simply auto or defensive toggles. Recharges longer than ~90 sec also tend to be a poor use of procs since they usually over-cap the proc chance.

 

You also run into the where-do-I-put-the-ATO issue. You want your armor proc and you probably want your set bonuses from it - but the ATO set has so much recharge that 6-slotting an actual attack power will compromise its effectiveness, so the damage auras are normally a dumping spot for them.

 

No Rad armor is way ahead Dark armor. Dark badly suffer of end problems, Rad don't.  (I know Theft of the essence proc, but it's not enough in final balance). The small ticks from damage aura doesn't match with the burst potential of these proc'd pbaoe.

I tried both, wanted to love Dark but Rad is just better.

 

Anyway I'm just saying that many people miss the aoe potential of Rad armor because they don't get it:

you got 2 large (15ft and 20ft) fast animating pbaoe where put like 8 damages procs (chance to proc 90%), that recharge almost every pack (thanks to rech buff in beta decay). 

Consider the heal as a secondary effect of a mini nuke. (at 90% res almost everywhere, it's enough).

From the years of playing, this tank was the strongest scrappy/tanky combo i've run. After throwing 3 or 4 of these aoe, i just had to take care of bosses (+4/x8 oc).

And that kind of slotting doesn't interfer with the-where-to-put ATO sets problems, at all.

But, if it's Pylon numbers you're interest in, yeah maybe take another road.

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1 hour ago, Funkenstein said:

 

No Rad armor is way ahead Dark armor. Dark badly suffer of end problems, Rad don't.  (I know Theft of the essence proc, but it's not enough in final balance). The small ticks from damage aura doesn't match with the burst potential of these proc'd pbaoe.

I tried both, wanted to love Dark but Rad is just better.

 

Anyway I'm just saying that many people miss the aoe potential of Rad armor because they don't get it:

you got 2 large (15ft and 20ft) fast animating pbaoe where put like 8 damages procs (chance to proc 90%), that recharge almost every pack (thanks to rech buff in beta decay). 

Consider the heal as a secondary effect of a mini nuke. (at 90% res almost everywhere, it's enough).

From the years of playing, this tank was the strongest scrappy/tanky combo i've run. After throwing 3 or 4 of these aoe, i just had to take care of bosses (+4/x8 oc).

And that kind of slotting doesn't interfer with the-where-to-put ATO sets problems, at all.

But, if it's Pylon numbers you're interest in, yeah maybe take another road.

In the 30 sec recharge Dark Regeneration, you have a 57% proc chance for non-purple procs. If you place 6 of them, you'll end up with an average of 247 damage. At perma-Hasten, this yields 22.7 dps. At +150% damage, Death Shroud deals 11.1 dps. Each proc you non-purple proc you slot into it would yield another +4.2 dps. However, if you eat reds or have other damage buffs, the damage aura rapidly out-performs Dark Regeneration. You can also slot two procs into Cloak of Fear (for 8.4 dps).

 

Radiation Therapy does slightly worse than Dark Regeneration - the 6 proc method would yield a dps of 17.8 dps (largely due to proc chance capping). Beta Decay is a bit better than Cloak of Fear (3 procs for 12.6 dps). Ground Zero yields another 11.8 dps (again, proc chance capped), the major advantage being the larger target cap. So they're roughly equivalent, but Dark has better upside with buffs.

 

In terms of endurance, this is largely a non-issue with Ageless.

 

Bio Armor has similar potential with its AE.

 

However, none of this comes close to what you're doing with primary. The cumulative from Radiation Armor (42.2 dps) is beaten by Whirling Smash alone (54.5 dps) with Armageddon + 3xnon-purple.

 

 

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Hmm you're thinking in DPS which is relevant only against hard target like... AV/Pylon (!)

Against packs of mobs, on regular content DPA is a better metric, no ?

As i say, if your goal is ST DPS, ok for another road. 

But I repeat  i just wanted to point out the fact that most of ppl miss the AoE burst potential of Rad. 

As for the proc monster thing, that's another story... 

 

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6 minutes ago, Funkenstein said:

Hmm you're thinking in DPS which is relevant only against hard target like... AV/Pylon (!)

Against packs of mobs, on regular content DPA is a better metric, no ?

As i say, if your goal is ST DPS, ok for another road. 

But I repeat  i just wanted to point out the fact that most of ppl miss the AoE burst potential of Rad. 

As for the proc monster thing, that's another story... 

 

It's relevant in this case because the numbers we're talking about are too low to be effective 'burst'. Activating all of these proc'd-out long recharge powers would still leave most of the minions standing - as opposed to the burst attacks from Blast sets, which wipe out all the minions (and potentially the lieutenants with some builds). So you're really talking about using those abilities repeatedly over time - they're Fireball, not Inferno.

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