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Hjarki

Poor Man's Brute: Fire/Poison

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Yet another build from the vaults.

 

Introduction

Fire is one of the more popular control sets, but most of the Fire builds I’ve seen are a bit clunky. They tend to involve a lot of remembering to click this and click that. This is a far more ‘Brute-like’ build than most - in theory, you can just stand there afk and watch things die (although such a strategy is far from optimal).

 

However, unlike conventional farming builds, it doesn’t simply fall apart when tasked to go into general content or up against AV/GM but rather holds its own, providing significant benefits to the group and well as meaningful damage.

 

Defenses

I went with positional defenses for the build (albeit not AoE defenses). Because the build runs Venomous Gas at all times, the effective soft-cap for Melee defenses is actually 28% against anything without heavy hit debuff resists. In practice, the sheer amount of -resist debuffing means that the build is effectively soft-capped against everything within the Venomous Gas that can’t resist hit debuffs.

 

For Ranged Defenses, I assumed that enemies would not be within Venomous Gas and just soft-capped it the normal way (note: Mids’ reports double the normal value for stealth powers because half is lost in combat, so it’s merely close to soft-cap rather than at soft-cap).

 

Other than this, the build has a fair amount of control to act as defense - the constant flopping from Bonfire, the Holds from Poison Trap and (to a small extent) the Confusion from World of Confusion.

 

Lastly, status protection is conferred via Indomitable Will. Even without Hasten, the constant +recharge buffs from Bonfire and Cross Punch give you a high likelihood of being able to keep it active as needed.

 

Offense

As noted above, the build can very rapidly chew through even +4/x8 crowds with damage auras and other area effect powers. While there is no taunt in the build, mobs tend not to scatter very far given the slow/immobilize/hold/knockdown effects.

 

Note: Pre-Incarnate, the endurance demands of this build can be a bit prohibitive.

 

How It Plays

Like a Brute, you simply dive in and burn everything down. You’re not nearly as indestructible, but your debuffing/control is significantly better. However, unlike a Brute or similar builds such as Fire/Kin, you’re not operating at the limit of your capabilities while solo. Popping +damage inspirations or benefitting from other player’s buffs can significantly improve your already exceptional performance in a way it can’t for those sorts of builds.

 

So, again, jump on Beta if you want to test out the build - or your variation of it - and see how potent this particular combo can be.

 

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7

https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

 

Click this DataLink to open the build!

 

Level 50 Mutation Controller

Primary Power Set: Fire Control

Secondary Power Set: Poison

Power Pool: Fighting

Power Pool: Leadership

Power Pool: Leaping

Power Pool: Concealment

Ancillary Pool: Psionic Mastery

 

Hero Profile:

Level 1: Char

  • (A) Apocalypse - Damage: Level 50
  • (3) Apocalypse - Damage/Endurance: Level 50
  • (3) Neuronic Shutdown - Chance of Damage(Psionic): Level 30
  • (5) Ghost Widow's Embrace - Chance of Damage(Psionic): Level 50
  • (5) Unbreakable Constraint - Chance for Smashing Damage: Level 50
  • (7) Apocalypse - Chance of Damage(Negative): Level 50

Level 1: Alkaloid

  • (A) Healing IO: Level 50

Level 2: Fire Cages

  • (A) Artillery - Endurance/Recharge/Range: Level 50
  • (7) Artillery - Accuracy/Recharge/Range: Level 50
  • (9) Artillery - Accuracy/Damage: Level 50
  • (9) Artillery - Damage/Endurance: Level 50
  • (11) Artillery - Damage/Recharge: Level 50
  • (11) Artillery - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 50

Level 4: Envenom

  • (A) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff: Level 20
  • (15) Touch of Lady Grey - Chance for Negative Damage: Level 50
  • (17) Shield Breaker - Chance for Lethal Damage: Level 30

Level 6: Weaken

  • (A) Cloud Senses - Chance for Negative Energy Damage: Level 30

Level 8: Hot Feet

  • (A) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
  • (17) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage: Level 50
  • (19) Superior Avalanche - Damage/Endurance: Level 50
  • (19) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance: Level 50
  • (21) Superior Avalanche - Recharge/Chance for Knockdown: Level 50
  • (21) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 50

Level 10: Boxing

  • (A) Empty

Level 12: Maneuvers

  • (A) Red Fortune - Defense: Level 50
  • (23) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance: Level 50
  • (23) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed: Level 50

Level 14: Combat Jumping

  • (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed: Level 50

Level 16: Tough

  • (A) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All): Level 50
  • (25) Unbreakable Guard - +Max HP: Level 50
  • (25) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance/RechargeTime: Level 50
  • (27) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance: Level 50
  • (27) Unbreakable Guard - RechargeTime/Resistance: Level 50

Level 18: Weave

  • (A) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All): Level 50
  • (29) Red Fortune - Defense: Level 50
  • (29) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance: Level 50
  • (31) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50

Level 20: Tactics

  • (A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up: Level 50
  • (31) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Endurance: Level 50

Level 22: Super Jump

  • (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Knockback Reduction (4 points): Level 50
  • (31) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range: Level 50

Level 24: Stealth

  • (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed: Level 50
  • (33) Red Fortune - Defense: Level 50
  • (33) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance: Level 50

Level 26: Bonfire

  • (A) Ragnarok - Damage: Level 50
  • (33) Ragnarok - Damage/Recharge: Level 50
  • (34) Ragnarok - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 50
  • (34) Ragnarok - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 50
  • (34) Overwhelming Force - Damage/Chance for Knockdown/Knockback to Knockdown: Level 50
  • (36) Force Feedback - Chance for +Recharge: Level 50

Level 28: Kick

  • (A) Empty

Level 30: Cross Punch

  • (A) Armageddon - Chance for Fire Damage: Level 50
  • (36) Armageddon - Damage/Endurance: Level 50
  • (36) Armageddon - Damage: Level 50
  • (37) Armageddon - Damage/Recharge: Level 50
  • (37) Armageddon - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 50

Level 32: Fire Imps

  • (A) Expedient Reinforcement - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 50
  • (43) Expedient Reinforcement - Accuracy/Damage: Level 50
  • (43) Expedient Reinforcement - Damage/Endurance: Level 50
  • (46) Expedient Reinforcement - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 50
  • (46) Expedient Reinforcement - Endurance/Damage/Recharge: Level 50
  • (50) Expedient Reinforcement - Resist Bonus Aura for Pets: Level 50

Level 35: Poison Trap

  • (A) Superior Will of the Controller - Recharge/Chance for Psionic Damage: Level 50
  • (37) Superior Will of the Controller - Accuracy/Confused/Hold/Immobilize/Sleep/Stun/Terrorized/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
  • (39) Superior Will of the Controller - Accuracy/Confused/Hold/Immobilize/Sleep/Stun/Terrorized: Level 50
  • (39) Superior Will of the Controller - Confused/Hold/Immobilize/Sleep/Stun/Terrorized/Recharge: Level 50
  • (39) Superior Will of the Controller - Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
  • (40) Superior Will of the Controller - Accuracy/Confused/Hold/Immobilize/Sleep/Stun/Terrorized/Endurance: Level 50

Level 38: Venomous Gas

  • (A) Dark Watcher's Despair - To Hit Debuff: Level 50
  • (40) Dark Watcher's Despair - To Hit Debuff/Recharge/Endurance: Level 50
  • (40) Dark Watcher's Despair - To Hit Debuff/Endurance: Level 50
  • (42) Dark Watcher's Despair - Recharge/Endurance: Level 50

Level 41: Indomitable Will

  • (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed: Level 50
  • (42) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Recharge: Level 50
  • (42) Luck of the Gambler - Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
  • (43) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50

Level 44: Mind Over Body

  • (A) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%: Level 30
  • (45) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance: Level 50
  • (45) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance: Level 50
  • (45) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance/RechargeTime: Level 50
  • (46) Unbreakable Guard - RechargeTime/Resistance: Level 50

Level 47: World of Confusion

  • (A) Coercive Persuasion  - Contagious Confusion: Level 50
  • (48) Coercive Persuasion  - Confused: Level 50
  • (48) Coercive Persuasion  - Confused/Endurance: Level 50
  • (48) Coercive Persuasion  - Confused/Recharge: Level 50
  • (50) Coercive Persuasion  - Accuracy/Confused/Recharge: Level 50
  • (50) Coercive Persuasion  - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 50

Level 49: Invisibility

  • (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed: Level 50

Level 1: Sprint

  • (A) Celerity - +Stealth: Level 50

Level 2: Health

  • (A) Panacea - +Hit Points/Endurance: Level 50
  • (13) Numina's Convalesence - +Regeneration/+Recovery: Level 50
  • (13) Miracle - +Recovery: Level 40

Level 2: Stamina

  • (A) Performance Shifter - EndMod: Level 50
  • (15) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End: Level 50

Level 50: Intuition Radial Paragon

 

Level 50: Ageless Core Epiphany 

------------

 

 

 

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I haven't had much luck with VG on my Elec/Poison but I also didn't build for 40% Range DEF.  Your Fire/Poison build gives one much to consider. After your build, the Frosticus Posion revelations (Plant/Poison), and my own personal experimentation trying to build the perfect sapper /POSION IS BACK ON THE MENU FOLKS! I still think /Poison as a set sucks from a set design perspective. IMO there aren't many compelling choices. I think VG and Poison Trap are the closest to being set defining.. The plus side is having many throw away powers opens up more power selection in other areas.

 

Anyway this thread isn't about /Poison. Good job and looking forward to seeing any other unusual builds you might share.


 


-Main Controllers-

Dark/Time/Primal   Earth/Thermal/Ice   Electric/Poison/Mu   Fire/Dark/Fire   Gravity/Kin/Mace   Ice/Rad/Ice   Illusion/Traps/Mace   Mind/TA/Psionic   Plant/Storm/Ice


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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

I haven't had much luck with VG on my Elec/Poison but I also didn't build for 40% Range DEF.  Your Fire/Poison build gives one much to consider. After your build, the Frosticus Posion revelations (Plant/Poison), and my own personal experimentation trying to build the perfect sapper /POSION IS BACK ON THE MENU FOLKS! I still think /Poison as a set sucks from a set design perspective. IMO there aren't many compelling choices. I think VG and Poison Trap are the closest to being set defining.. The plus side is having many throw away powers opens up more power selection in other areas.

 

Anyway this thread isn't about /Poison. Good job and looking forward to seeing any other unusual builds you might share.

While Plant/Poison is certainly more thematically appropriate, Carrion Creepers is a bit gimmicky in the spacing you need both between mobs in a spawn and the spawns - you can very easily run into situations where it's just not doing much for you. Likewise, the damage on all the AE Immobilizes is so weak that even having a double strength one isn't particularly worthwhile. In contrast, Hot Feet and Bonfire just work seamlessly and power the rest of the build - you can just go /afk like a Brute and things will die around you.

 

Also, I should point out that these builds aren't unusual-for-the-sake-of-unusual, but actually more potent than many conventional builds due to the synergies they exploit.

Edited by Hjarki

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3 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

Also, I should point out that these builds aren't unusual-for-the-sake-of-unusual, but actually more potent than many conventional builds due to the synergies they exploit.

Oh yeah. I get that. I wasn't trying to imply it was the case.


 


-Main Controllers-

Dark/Time/Primal   Earth/Thermal/Ice   Electric/Poison/Mu   Fire/Dark/Fire   Gravity/Kin/Mace   Ice/Rad/Ice   Illusion/Traps/Mace   Mind/TA/Psionic   Plant/Storm/Ice


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I think /Poison is one of the most underrated controller secondaries; so much -Res, -ToHit, -Def, -Dam, and even a decent amount of -Regen, -End, and -Rech. If people thought more about what it does, they'd have paired it with Fire right out the gate.  I don't even have half the inf invested in mine as the OP does, and it still melts through everything.    


Indom 50s: Burner Account (Fire/FF Ctrl) | Dr. Unconventional (Ill/Dark Ctrl) | Lawn Boy (Plant/Nat Ctrl) | Magma Lad (Fire/Kin Ctrl) | Metcalf (Grav/Kin Ctrl) | IcyBM (Ice/Trap Ctrl) | Jim With The Weather (Ice/Storm Ctrl) | Dr. Jonas (Mind/Poison Ctrl) | Coldwire (Elec/Cold Ctrl) | Pyrotoxin (Fire/Poison Ctrl) | Barry Mantle-o (Earth/Poison Ctrl) | Voltswagen (Dark/EA Ctrl) | Time Vampire (Grav/Time Ctrl) | Tootboy (Fire/FF Ctrl) | Polarrhoid (Ice/TA Ctrl) | LoLEnEn (En/En Blast) | Draw (Rad/Rad Def) | Destroyo (Bots/Trap MM) | Con Carne (Rad/Bio Brute) | Senor Smoke (Rad/Fire Brute) | Something Else (TW/Bio Scrap) | Thermador (Rad/Fire Brute) | Electrovox (EA/Son Def) Danzigawatt (Demons/EA MM) | Ohm Skillet (Fire/EA Ctrl) | Obscured Face Guy (Dark/Storm Ctrl) | Negative Feedback (EA/Dark Def) | Overspray (Fire/Storm Ctrl) Spacegrass (Fire/Nat Ctrl) Embarrassing Wetness (Water/EA Corr) Weather Permitting (Ill/Storm Ctrl) Herr Fryer (Fire/Traps Ctrl) Rainiac (Grav/Storm Ctrl) more on the way...

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Posted (edited)

I have yet to try poison and this concept intrigues me as a way to give it a go. I would likely change up the build a bit to suit my tastes but it looks fun. Do you think Fire is the best pairing or would there be another primary to go with it? If I’m going to try a new secondary I might as well put it with the best primary for it.

Edited by Doc Ranger

Willie Wonka: Dk/Dk Troller. Natural Mystic: Dark/Nature Troller. Fabsolute Zero: Ice/Atomic Blaster. Quantum Cowboy: Kin/Rad Corruptor. Mr Green Dreams: Plant/Dark Troller. Grandmaster Flash: Rad/Bio Brute.  Dread Pirate Faraday: Elec/Dark Troller

All on Excelsior. 

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5 hours ago, Doc Ranger said:

I have yet to try poison and this concept intrigues me as a way to give it a go. I would likely change up the build a bit to suit my tastes but it looks fun. Do you think Fire is the best pairing or would there be another primary to go with it? If I’m going to try a new secondary I might as well put it with the best primary for it.

Venomous Gas implies you'll be in melee range. This makes anything Cone-based problematic (you really don't want to move your PBAoE aura around all that much).

 

It also places an unusually high value on other PBAoE effects since you're there anyway.

 

I chose FIre simply because it did the most damage and I don't place a particularly high value on the 'Control' aspects of Control sets. Having enemies debuffed and flopping around is enough Control for 99% of situations I find myself in.

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Yeah it looks like fun. How is it with end game content beyond your basic PI Av mishes etc? BAF, ITF, DA etc? Looks like I will have to rely on inspirations, Incarnates or Epic pools for getting regen or recovery issues taken care of in emergencies. Which is fine...but I like to know what I'm getting into. I have a Fire/Dark which is somewhat fun but I don't really play much anymore so I'm familiar with Fire Control.

 


Willie Wonka: Dk/Dk Troller. Natural Mystic: Dark/Nature Troller. Fabsolute Zero: Ice/Atomic Blaster. Quantum Cowboy: Kin/Rad Corruptor. Mr Green Dreams: Plant/Dark Troller. Grandmaster Flash: Rad/Bio Brute.  Dread Pirate Faraday: Elec/Dark Troller

All on Excelsior. 

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46 minutes ago, Doc Ranger said:

Yeah it looks like fun. How is it with end game content beyond your basic PI Av mishes etc? BAF, ITF, DA etc? Looks like I will have to rely on inspirations, Incarnates or Epic pools for getting regen or recovery issues taken care of in emergencies. Which is fine...but I like to know what I'm getting into. I have a Fire/Dark which is somewhat fun but I don't really play much anymore so I'm familiar with Fire Control.

 

It's mainly built for grinding, with poor single target damage. You'd also run into issues with AV/GM resisting the -hit buffs - if they can close to melee range, your melee def isn't capped. In theory, you can just Immobilize them and stand at close-but-not-melee range. So if you're anticipating solo'ing x8/+4 LRSF, it's probably not a good choice. However, on a team your lack of personal single target dps is compensated for by your excellent -resist debuffs.

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What ancillaries or patrons work well?  Seems like a lot of good options.  Maybe you need the status from Psionic to make it work?

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On 4/8/2020 at 9:03 PM, Hjarki said:

(note: Mids’ reports double the normal value for stealth powers because half is lost in combat, so it’s merely close to soft-cap rather than at soft-cap).

You can actually turn that off.  Go to Option-> Configurations ->Effects & Maths and click on "HitByFoe, MissionObjectiveClick, ActiveAttackClick under suppression and that will show you the actual in-combat defense numbers.

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What this team needs is more Defenders

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