Arch type normalization within class

[MTeague]

You will however, *hemmorage* endurance at first with Dark Armor. 

Definitely need to be strategic on what toggles to run vs not until you slot up some.

[r0y]

21 hours ago, kenlon said:

 

Hah. Try Tanker SR sometime - that'll break you of those silly notions right quick. But even for the lesser versions of the set, you still have staggeringly good Defense Debuff resistance. With only a pair of common defense IOs in each power: 93.23% resist for Brutes and Scrappers, 82.87% for Stalkers. Defense cascades are not a problem for SR. And there's a lot less untyped damage around than there used to be.

I made an SR/dark melee tank (build posted above).  He's currently level 40 and IO'd out as best can be for the level; he works when he works, but every now-and-then:  BAM!  Alpha strike death.  It's embarrassing for a tank.  Most tanks you can see you're failing and can react.  SR often gives no indication when a colossal fail is imminent.  The scaling resist sucks, as you have to already have low health for it to kick in, so it does literally nothing for the alpha that gets through (5%).

 

Then you go fight things like Rikti, Arachnos, etc. and you'll REALLY feel the pain.  It's not a BAD set for tanks, but it's FAR from the "OP" that others describe it as.  Again, unless one's idea of end game is running scanner missions in PI and cherry-picking council...   I was doing an Mothership Raid with my SR/Dark, and the +4 rikti were working him.  So it leads me to think that SR is also not so great with +4 mobs as a tank.  I'll find out.  All I can say is what I have experienced.

 

(probably should have had CJ instead of SJ on, but you get the idea).  Looks good on paper (even in game's paper) but actual performance has not been as survivable as other tanks I have (bio, WP, it is better than Rad, but resist-only sets are worse than defense-only ones!)

Edited May 16, 2020 by r0y
added screenie of combatnumbers

[r0y]

15 hours ago, MTeague said:

You will however, *hemmorage* endurance at first with Dark Armor. 

Definitely need to be strategic on what toggles to run vs not until you slot up some.

Best way around that is the Theft of Essence proc in the Dark Regen:  end problems go away.

 

I love dark armor.  In fact, if I become really disheartened at this new SR/Dark Melee tank I just made (currently level 40), I'm making a Dark Armor/something tank (MA would be brutal for the defense in T2 kick).  I had at least 2 DA tanks, and a DA scrapper on live (Spines/DA - the blender build!).  Dark is an excellent armor set, but not for the new or feint of heart.

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, r0y said:

I made an SR/dark melee tank (build posted above).  He's currently level 40 and IO'd out as best can be for the level; he works when he works, but every now-and-then:  BAM!  Alpha strike death.  It's embarrassing for a tank.  Most tanks you can see you're failing and can react.  SR often gives no indication when a colossal fail is imminent.  The scaling resist sucks, as you have to already have low health for it to kick in, so it does literally nothing for the alpha that gets through (5%).

 

Then you go fight things like Rikti, Arachnos, etc. and you'll REALLY feel the pain.  It's not a BAD set for tanks, but it's FAR from the "OP" that others describe it as.  Again, unless one's idea of end game is running scanner missions in PI and cherry-picking council...   I was doing an Mothership Raid with my SR/Dark, and the +4 rikti were working him.  So it leads me to think that SR is also not so great with +4 mobs as a tank.  I'll find out.  All I can say is what I have experienced.

 

(probably should have had CJ instead of SJ on, but you get the idea).  Looks good on paper (even in game's paper) but actual performance has not been as survivable as other tanks I have (bio, WP, it is better than Rad, but resist-only sets are worse than defense-only ones!)

What's your max HP at?  I always assumed having a higher base HP value means you'd have more HP when your scaling resists kick in.  That and outside buffs for +HP aren't as common as other defensive buffs.

 

I also personally never saw Dark Melee as a great pairing for SR.  Sure, there's the heal but usually players don't slot that aspect.  The -ToHit is more of a help to sets that only have a bit of extra def and the control is ST.  I think, if they ever revisit changes to DM, they'll go through with the changes to Dark Consumption but shift it to also have defensive utility, making it a short duration moderate damage DoT with a long duration -ToHit.

 

As for SR, I always felt control was a better assist to the set as just stopping incoming attacks is superior than lowering the already low chance of hitting you.  Things like the swords or ice would be far more effective.

 

Whether the set is OP or not really depends on the build, IMO.  What the set can accomplish with the slots and power choices and combos you make of it.  It can get capped defense easily (particularly for Tankers) which frees up slotting for other stuff or picking powers specifically for certain niches like getting extra control (Wall of Force is a decent AoE KD) or a heal.  It may not be up the alley for a Tanker since it was originally designed for other ATs, but I don't think it performs badly. 

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, r0y said:

I made an SR/dark melee tank (build posted above).  He's currently level 40 and IO'd out as best can be for the level; he works when he works, but every now-and-then:  BAM!  Alpha strike death.  It's embarrassing for a tank.  Most tanks you can see you're failing and can react.  SR often gives no indication when a colossal fail is imminent.  The scaling resist sucks, as you have to already have low health for it to kick in, so it does literally nothing for the alpha that gets through (5%).

 

Then you go fight things like Rikti, Arachnos, etc. and you'll REALLY feel the pain.  It's not a BAD set for tanks, but it's FAR from the "OP" that others describe it as.  Again, unless one's idea of end game is running scanner missions in PI and cherry-picking council...   I was doing an Mothership Raid with my SR/Dark, and the +4 rikti were working him.  So it leads me to think that SR is also not so great with +4 mobs as a tank.  I'll find out.  All I can say is what I have experienced.

 

(probably should have had CJ instead of SJ on, but you get the idea).  Looks good on paper (even in game's paper) but actual performance has not been as survivable as other tanks I have (bio, WP, it is better than Rad, but resist-only sets are worse than defense-only ones!)

Roy, by that level your defenses are far too low. You're getting hit much more often than you should. You're not at softcap yet, and actually should be over cap. By 40 you should be at 50% resist to m/r/a.

 

S/l resist look good, but I think you're focusing too heavily on resist and not enough on defense.

 

Hit 50% defenses and you're not going to sweat +4s or anything but tohit buffs, like nemmie vengeance, which is tough for everything anyway.

 

To compare apples to apples, i can afk in the middle of a group alone, at 40, and never worry on a Kat/SR scrap, which has lower HP pool, so, you should get defenses up 10% more. And add in the reactive scaling DR. That and the built in scaling adds a ton.

Edited May 16, 2020 by SwitchFade

[kenlon]

17 hours ago, r0y said:

 

 

How are your defenses that low at 40? I don't have a low level version of my SR/Katana build lying around, so I whipped up a quick test build in Mids (with the unofficial updates) and at level 40, using mostly level 25 common IOs, I had 57.7% Melee/Ranged/AoE defense. Three Defense buffs and one EndRx per toggle, Three Defense per auto, using Weave and Combat Jumping in addition to powerset powers. The only set IOs I used were the uniques from Steadfast Protection and Gladiator's Armor, slotted into Tough. And I didn't gimp the rest of the slotting - three attacks six-slotted, two five-slotted, three slots in PB for easy perma, two slots in Build Up.

 

I have to assume that you a) skipped getting any pool defense powers (which is a mistake) and b) didn't actually fully enhance your powers. This isn't a SR issue, this is a build issue.

[Zeraphia]

On 5/15/2020 at 9:44 AM, Psyonico said:

Blasters out-damage brutes, end of sentence.

Titan Weapons/Anything on a Brute pretty unilaterally will out-damage just about every kind of Blaster combo except those that have fire/ as primary or fire/ as secondary. Be very careful with how you phrase things. Although, TW is such an outlier I don't think it's fair to compare.

But I wouldn't go around saying Blasters out-damage Brutes end of sentence... There are a lot of combinations of Brutes that will greatly out-DPS a lot of Blasters, especially the ones who investigate and abuse procs like -res and DPA's of the faster sets versus more "average" sets like AR/DP/Water.

[r0y]

17 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Roy, by that level your defenses are far too low. You're getting hit much more often than you should. You're not at softcap yet, and actually should be over cap. By 40 you should be at 50% resist to m/r/a.

 

S/l resist look good, but I think you're focusing too heavily on resist and not enough on defense.

 

Hit 50% defenses and you're not going to sweat +4s or anything but tohit buffs, like nemmie vengeance, which is tough for everything anyway.

 

To compare apples to apples, i can afk in the middle of a group alone, at 40, and never worry on a Kat/SR scrap, which has lower HP pool, so, you should get defenses up 10% more. And add in the reactive scaling DR. That and the built in scaling adds a ton.

 

1 hour ago, kenlon said:

 

How are your defenses that low at 40? I don't have a low level version of my SR/Katana build lying around, so I whipped up a quick test build in Mids (with the unofficial updates) and at level 40, using mostly level 25 common IOs, I had 57.7% Melee/Ranged/AoE defense. Three Defense buffs and one EndRx per toggle, Three Defense per auto, using Weave and Combat Jumping in addition to powerset powers. The only set IOs I used were the uniques from Steadfast Protection and Gladiator's Armor, slotted into Tough. And I didn't gimp the rest of the slotting - three attacks six-slotted, two five-slotted, three slots in PB for easy perma, two slots in Build Up.

 

I have to assume that you a) skipped getting any pool defense powers (which is a mistake) and b) didn't actually fully enhance your powers. This isn't a SR issue, this is a build issue.

To answer both of these (essentially) same questions, the build was just done on the fly as I just made the toon in response to this very thread.   By the evening of the day (yesterday, about 6 hours later) I hit 50 with it and reformulated the build.   Originally, I only had 1 slot in the auto defense powers (LotG globals) so Agile, Dodge, Lucky were not working as hard as they should have.

 

So now, at level 50 (just unlocked alpha, no slotting), it looks like this:

 

I did end up dropping Midnight Grasp and Dark Consumption, as they were not really adding anything and I'd much rather have a real heal for "just in case" situations.  My current, and possibly final build, is this:

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Roo Oy-v2_aidself: Level 50 Natural Tanker
Primary Power Set: Super Reflexes
Secondary Power Set: Dark Melee
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Medicine
Power Pool: Sorcery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Focused Fighting -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(39), Rct-EndRdx/Rchg(40), Rct-Def/Rchg(40), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(40), Rct-ResDam%(43)
Level 1: Shadow Punch -- SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg(34), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(39)
Level 2: Focused Senses -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(9), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(15), LucoftheG-EndRdx/Rchg(21), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(43), LucoftheG-Def(43)
Level 4: Shadow Maul -- Arm-Dmg(A), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(5), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), Arm-Acc/Rchg(7), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(7), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(15)
Level 6: Practiced Brawler -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Combat Jumping -- Ksm-ToHit+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(9)
Level 10: Taunt -- MckBrt-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(A), MckBrt-Taunt/Rchg(11), MckBrt-Taunt/Rng(11), PrfZng-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(45), PrfZng-Dam%(45)
Level 12: Evasion -- RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(13), RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(13), RedFrt-EndRdx(27), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(46), RedFrt-Def(46)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Jump-I(A)
Level 16: Siphon Life -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(17), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(17), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(19), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(19), Prv-Heal/Rchg(21)
Level 18: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 20: Injection -- CldSns-Acc/ToHitDeb(A), CldSns-Acc/Rchg(42), CldSns-ToHitDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(42), CldSns-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 22: Aid Self -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(23), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(23), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(33), Pnc-Heal(33), IntRdx-I(34)
Level 24: Tough -- Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(A), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(25), Ags-EndRdx/Rchg(25), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(27), GldArm-3defTpProc(33), ImpSki-Status(37)
Level 26: Quickness -- Run-I(A)
Level 28: Soul Drain -- SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg(A), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg(29), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb(31)
Level 30: Agile -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(36)
Level 32: Dodge -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 35: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(36), LucoftheG-Def(36), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(37)
Level 38: Lucky -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(42), DefBuff-I(46)
Level 41: Touch of Fear -- CldSns-Acc/ToHitDeb(A), CldSns-Acc/Rchg(48), CldSns-ToHitDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(48), CldSns-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 44: Spirit Ward -- Prv-Absorb%(A)
Level 47: Mystic Flight -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 49: Rune of Protection -- UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(50), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- HO:Nucle(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- RgnTss-Regen+(A), Pnc-Heal/+End(3), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(45)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PwrTrns-+Heal(A), PrfShf-End%(3)
------------

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by r0y

[kenlon]

That's, uh, certainly an interesting build you have there. Why on earth would you take Injection/Aid Self, especially on a set with self-healing that you will be hitting on cooldown? You're getting 26% healing every 3.5 seconds while doing damage, and Aid Self isn't actually much stronger as a heal at 38.7% with a 4.48 second cast time, and has an interrupt time to boot. You've got eight enhancement slots wasted between those powers!