Thugs/Traps - Is it good?

[Migatte]

(sorry not so good in english)

Some days ago my brother created a Thugs/Trap MM and he asked me if i could make one build for late game, and of course i accept, but instead of creating one (having some difficulty on how to slotting without a base-build) i like to "inspiring" and do some minor modifications usually (like this one), i taked it on this thread from @JayboH as a base

  And then i slotted according i learned a bit of everything in MMs, is it good or still need some adjustements that can be otimized?

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Question: is it worth to slot Gaussian Chance for build up in Enforcers or the defense IO is ok? 

[TheSpiritFox]

I would highly, highly suggest you switch maneuvers and super speed first off. You do not need maneuvers early game like you really honestly do not need that until past 32 at the earliest and super speed is useful in exemplar content. 

 

Second, softcapping yourself to smashing and lethal when you don't take provoke is kinda useless. Exchange scorpion shield and web envelope for a 6 slotted bonfire with procs and 1 endurance IO + sudden accel kb->kd, and burnout for double gang war. 

 

It's a solid build, honestly besides the two above changes I would personally just move some slots around a little bit but it's mostly about personal preference. I can't stand travel powers that don't have maxed move speed and 3 slot both SJ and SS on my thugs/traps. I took aid pool up to field medic because losing the interrupt on your aid other is fucking useful and the extra heal when you click field medic helps too in a pinch. Your build will do more damage than my build will by a bit, my build is more survivable than your build by a bit. 

 

Seriously though, take bonfire. The amount of incoming damage mitigation that provides FAR outstrips what scorpion shield provides not just you but your pets and it does damage on top of it. Take burnout, double gangwar is hilarious and burnout is also useful for double trapping right from the start of an AV encounter. 

[JayboH]

On 6/19/2020 at 12:50 PM, TheSpiritFox said:

I would highly, highly suggest you switch maneuvers and super speed first off. You do not need maneuvers early game like you really honestly do not need that until past 32 at the earliest and super speed is useful in exemplar content. 

 

Second, softcapping yourself to smashing and lethal when you don't take provoke is kinda useless. Exchange scorpion shield and web envelope for a 6 slotted bonfire with procs and 1 endurance IO + sudden accel kb->kd, and burnout for double gang war. 

 

It's a solid build, honestly besides the two above changes I would personally just move some slots around a little bit but it's mostly about personal preference. I can't stand travel powers that don't have maxed move speed and 3 slot both SJ and SS on my thugs/traps. I took aid pool up to field medic because losing the interrupt on your aid other is fucking useful and the extra heal when you click field medic helps too in a pinch. Your build will do more damage than my build will by a bit, my build is more survivable than your build by a bit. 

 

Seriously though, take bonfire. The amount of incoming damage mitigation that provides FAR outstrips what scorpion shield provides not just you but your pets and it does damage on top of it. Take burnout, double gangwar is hilarious and burnout is also useful for double trapping right from the start of an AV encounter. 

Have to disagree about provoke.  Secondary is Traps.  Provoke isn't necessary when you have Seeker Drones.  Fire them off, they take the alpha which allows you to walk up and drop Poison Trap with the Field following you.  Drop Acid Mortar, then Web Envelope everything (or just start with Web Envelope which will make them aggroed also) and the fire patches from your pyro will deal their full damage since they can't run away.  I thought a single Run Speed IO basically maxed out SS by the way, since it has a cap.  I can't imagine wasting 2 more slots on a movement speed that is capped, plus some people skip movement powers entirely for temp movement powers or even Ninja/Beast Run.

[killigraphy]

Thugs are second best in the game....traps on the other hand....

 

I have a twisted on and off love affair with traps.  To keep it short; Web Grenade, Caltrops and Trip mine, are pretty useless end game (web all game), if you're using them to mule, of course knock yourself, but as standalone powers, pure basura.

[JayboH]

Thugs/Traps is a great combo.

[Dixa]

it's an exellent combo, but get team teleport. 

[TheSpiritFox]

On 6/20/2020 at 10:57 PM, JayboH said:

Have to disagree about provoke.  Secondary is Traps.  Provoke isn't necessary when you have Seeker Drones.  Fire them off, they take the alpha which allows you to walk up and drop Poison Trap with the Field following you.  Drop Acid Mortar, then Web Envelope everything (or just start with Web Envelope which will make them aggroed also) and the fire patches from your pyro will deal their full damage since they can't run away.  I thought a single Run Speed IO basically maxed out SS by the way, since it has a cap.  I can't imagine wasting 2 more slots on a movement speed that is capped, plus some people skip movement powers entirely for temp movement powers or even Ninja/Beast Run.

No I was saying that if you don't take provoke, scorpion shield is basically useless as a power pick and web envelope is not worth taking on it's own when you can take electric fences instead and for a mastermind if you're going to take a shield especially on a /traps you'd do better with the mu resistance shield to help lower incoming damage to smaller numbers to get further broken up by bodyguard. 

 

I was saying that if you are NOT tankerminding, you should also not be trying to build to the personal softcap anywhere when you have bodyguard. 

[JayboH]

15 minutes ago, TheSpiritFox said:

No I was saying that if you don't take provoke, scorpion shield is basically useless as a power pick and web envelope is not worth taking on it's own when you can take electric fences instead and for a mastermind if you're going to take a shield especially on a /traps you'd do better with the mu resistance shield to help lower incoming damage to smaller numbers to get further broken up by bodyguard. 

 

I was saying that if you are NOT tankerminding, you should also not be trying to build to the personal softcap anywhere when you have bodyguard. 

For Thugs/Traps you can softcap yourself AND your pets though, so the bodyguard argument isn't as powerful as you think it might be.  I get what you are saying, but softcapping yourself instead of just going max resist protects against all the debuffs you would eat, which is also why Regen and Electric Armor have some issues in my opinion.

[TheSpiritFox]

1 hour ago, JayboH said:

For Thugs/Traps you can softcap yourself AND your pets though, so the bodyguard argument isn't as powerful as you think it might be.  I get what you are saying, but softcapping yourself instead of just going max resist protects against all the debuffs you would eat, which is also why Regen and Electric Armor have some issues in my opinion.

Softcapping yourself as a traps is pointless though. First off, traps are long enough recharge that getting mezzed is overall not a big deal and debuffs that aren't mez are even less of a deal, nothing should be spending much time attacking you UNLESS you take provoke and standing mezzed for a few seconds doesnt hurt much with a traps build, especially if it happens after your traps are down. The bodyguard argument is great because traps is the least busy secondary MMs have by far. If you were talking about time? Different story. Dark? Wayyyyyyy different story. But Traps? Softcapping yourself is about pointless unless you are tanking with your MM. 

 

And add to that, while your argument is about debuffs, scorpion shield is typed defense not positional, so you only avoid debuffs or mez that come with smashing/lethal attacks, literally everything else (most debuffs and mez do not have smashing or lethal damage attached to them) gets through. There are no debuffs to eat, the resistance is specifically to like allow you to target fire your thugs and drop bodyguard then pull it back up in defensive if you get aggro, and allows you to take less damage from Aoe attacks which in turn offloads less damage to your pets, since if you're going to softcap to a positional it is usually not AOE that you choose and it is absolutely going to gimp the rest of your build to forgo enough recharge with /traps to attempt to softcap both ranged and aoe. 

[JayboH]

Most incoming damage has a mix of smashing/lethal/energy and intentionally looking to getting debuffed/mezzed when you don't have to is frankly a weird argument in my opinion.  It has not been my experience that most debuffs have zero smashing/lethal/energy components. 

 

Least busy secondary - are we really going to compare Traps to Force Fields and say that with a straight face?  It's slightly less busy than Trick Arrow perhaps.  It's not like Traps doesn't benefit from bodyguard and the pet resist IOs - I'm just having a hard time believing that getting hit possibly 5% of the time with bodyguard and pet protection IOs plus other set bonuses is 'pointless' as you put it compared to getting hit with everything all the time for lesser damage with the same debuff resists as being defense softcapped, especially with how Triage works currently.

[Pherdnut]

Still not seeing a reason to take scorpion when positional soft cap is already in easy reach though. Why not get smash/lethal/energy resists from Mu on top of soft-capped MM and pets?

But yeah, absolutely want to be tough as !@#$ and mez/CC resistant if I'm wandering into the middle of a pile of carnies to set off poison traps. Caltrops can be nasty with a group immob and high recharge.

[Dixa]

as with all defense based options, there are enough enemy types end game that defenses fold against it's always worth it to have a respectable amount of resists if you can squeeze it in. 

 

the ony thug with any resists before io auras is the bruiser. electric fences will remove the need to slot kb-kd in the bruiser at all. 

 

there is no point to proc'ng out fences or caltrops. when they fire they wont fire on everything in the patch. 1, maybe 3 mobs if you are lucky. Be careful of information you get about procs on the old boards it's majorly outdated and before the ppm changes. 

[Pherdnut]

I thought you could still layer well-damage-boosted caltrops to good effect with a lot of recharge but haven't tried recently.