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Dark/SR - First kinda-sorta proc build

Cutter

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Cutter

Cutter

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So I'm used to building my Sentinels the "traditional" way, as in chasing set bonii and leveraging straight damage in attacks. However, seeing recent threads about /SR, and how (relatively) easy it is to cap defenses without needing too many sets, I thought I would take the opportunity (ha!) to rejig my fledgling Dark/SR and see what I can do with her. I'm going into this knowing that Dark has a fairly limited selection of procs, outside of loading up Abyssal Gaze, so I've chosen to aim for passive damage bonii on top of what procs seemed to make sense.

 

Big question: Can any of my primary attacks be subbed out for epics instead, and in doing so provide a better return on the investment? I'm loath to give up my T1 and T2 for now, due to the way their timing lets me stack both Opportunities at once. I think everything else but Blackstar is fair game tho.

 

The other target I'd be interested in hitting is shaving the last 12 seconds off Hasten to get it perma. Preferably without Alpha - Spiritual will do it, but its other aspects are pretty much wasted, and it also messes with proc math.

 

Also note that I don't chase solo ITFs or any of the major metrics, so I'm not shooting for bleeding edge here. However, I do like to feel like I'm contributing on teams, and would like to be able to solo something like +1/x8 at reasonable speed.

 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions to improve on this!

 

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Edited by Cutter
speeling is hrad

@Cutter

 

So many alts, so little time...

oldskool

oldskool

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Posted (edited)

Some food for thought.  

 

Passive +damage from sets is something you add to base damage.  Now, look over the two hardest hitters besides Blackstar which are Abyssal Gaze (112 dmg) and Antumbral Beam (145 dmg).  

 

Work backwards and remove a 4pc Devastation set.  You just lost 3% damage to all.  That's a loss of just over 4 pts of damage on Antumbral Beam.  Worth it? 

 

Now, remove the Acc/Dmg/Rch Apocalypse from Antumbral Beam and swap in some Acc/Dmg instead.  Notice the damage go up because the proc average changes.  You can repeat that with Abyssal Gaze by removing the recharge carrier in the PvP set and just replace it with Ghost Widow Acc/End.  

 

You could gain some more damage in Abyssal Gaze with Unbreakable Constraint: Chance for Smashing.  

 

You could gain around +30 pts of average damage in Life Drain by using the PvP proc, Touch of the Nictus, and Cloud Senses procs.  For good measure you could have the Theft of Essence.  A Nucleolus Exposure +3 could go there for Acc/Dmg and a Thunderstrike Acc/Dmg/End could also work.  You could of course mix and match.  

Sentinel Life Drain has the lowest healing modifier out of all of the ATs.  What Mid's is showing as 6.67% is not a typo.  The other ATs have Life Drain that heals 10%.  That includes Masterminds.  Compound a baseline 6.67% health return on top of an AT with fairly low hit points and SR has no other measures of building that up.  Life Drain used for healing on Sentinels kinda sucks.  I think a fair point can be made that Life Drain, slotted how you have it, when combined with Master Brawler can pull more weight than it may with some other combos.  So that's something to think about, but I'm not real sure it is worth it.  I have a couple of /SR Sentinels and the lack of a heal, even without Defensive Opportunity which I don't bother with, hasn't been a problem.  

 

Its also kind of a shame to not see the Gaussian's proc in Aim.  That proc in Tactics won't check often if you run solo more than you team.  If you team more, then just ignore this concern because there can be a solid case where it can be better.  Still, one more thing to think about.  

I'd think you'd end up doing more damage scrapping the entire mentality behind chasing +damage bonuses.  I know it was something I did earlier on last year, and I was wrong.  With SR there is a very high potential to hit very high recharge (well over 170%) and I think there is room to grow in the build there.  The defense side is fairly easy to deal with and this is where the magic happens.  SR gives you room to play with procs because your defense and recharge have innate boosts few other sets can even hope to get (Energy Aura being the runner up).  

 

What you have is totally fine if that is what you want.  You do you and all that.  However, if you're wanting to push it further there is certainly room to explore more options. 

 

P.S. And I see no reason why the build as is couldn't handle +2/x8 or better once you get your Alpha slot to T3.  

Edited by oldskool
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Cutter

Cutter

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Posted

Thanks @oldskool for weighing in. And for pointing out where my thought process wasn't giving me as much bang for the buck as I thought it was! (And for the encouragement that my build could do more than I think it could 🙂 )

 

Gonna take some time to noodle around a rebuild and see how far I can push it.

 

Quickly tho:

  • I just noticed, while looking at the numbers in more detail, that Gloom and Life Drain have almost identical stats. Gloom has a slightly faster cast time and shows a 20% -RES; LD has a very slightly higher base damage, the wee heal, and ability to slot accurate healing procs. If I were to look at dropping one of those in favour of an epic attack that can slot Force Feedback +rech (assuming that's enough to make the difference for perma-hasten), does that sound like a recommendable approach? Looks like KO Blow or Thunder Strike could both fill the bill as 1-dip wonders.
  • I could look at changing the slotting of Dark Obliteration, replacing Oppo Strikes with 5x Ragnaraok + Oppo proc. Might be worth it for the extra proc and couple % more recharge?

@Cutter

 

So many alts, so little time...

plainguy

plainguy

Posted
Posted

Just comparing the numbers to my Sentinel DP/SR Build and numerically we are almost the same.. 
That being said I am doing 3/8 out of the box without incarnates on my build.. 

 

Posted here for comparison 

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Why Softcap is important: https://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011/01/why-is-softcap-so-important.html

Limits: https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits

Attack Mechanics: https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics

Semi & Petless Mastermind Builds: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/10994-petless-and-semi-petless-masterminds/

 

oldskool

oldskool

Posted
Posted
  On 7/26/2020 at 7:52 PM, Cutter said:

Quickly tho:

  • I just noticed, while looking at the numbers in more detail, that Gloom and Life Drain have almost identical stats. Gloom has a slightly faster cast time and shows a 20% -RES; LD has a very slightly higher base damage, the wee heal, and ability to slot accurate healing procs. If I were to look at dropping one of those in favour of an epic attack that can slot Force Feedback +rech (assuming that's enough to make the difference for perma-hasten), does that sound like a recommendable approach? Looks like KO Blow or Thunder Strike could both fill the bill as 1-dip wonders.
  • I could look at changing the slotting of Dark Obliteration, replacing Oppo Strikes with 5x Ragnaraok + Oppo proc. Might be worth it for the extra proc and couple % more recharge?
Expand  

You're welcome! 

 

Gloom's 20% res debuff is Defensive Opportunity.  It will be available on a single target for 15 seconds and have a downtime related to how long it takes to rebuild to 90% in the meter.  So its not nearly as reliable as something like Achilles' Heel would be, but it is still a good effect on tough targets.  I don't want to get into a drawn out discussion on the failures and merits of the inherent though.  Gloom's base damage is actually higher than Life Drain (90 vs 86).  The higher base damage and faster cast time makes it have better DPA.  However, Life Drain has more proc potential and that slightly favors Life Drain.  So if you went with a proc LD it becomes a viable replacement to Gloom.  

 

Why chase FF procs when you can just build for perma-Hasten?  I'd think that's the entire point behind picking Super Reflexes, Energy Aura, Electric Armor, or Radiation.  Take a gander at the build in the block below.  It has 185% global recharge which is more than enough to perma your Hastens.  I didn't change any powers to do it.  I just changed the slotting.  BTW, KO Blow has a base 40 second recharge which really puts a hurt on that plan.  Thunderstrike isn't much better at 36 seconds.  The Epic pools with some Goldilocks zone potential would be Psychic Mastery, Dark Mastery, and Fire Mastery.  Those sets have a melee power which animates and recharges within reasonable ranges while also doing respectable damage.  The holds in those sets can be made to work but Dominate is the best for the whole Goldilocks zone set of attributes.  What I mean by this is the animation and recharge impacts to proc chance are juuuuuuust right.  Not too long and not too short.  

Opportunity Strikes is hot crap for the proc.  The entire set bonus is pretty good though.  The Sentinel Ward set is the same way.  The bonuses are pretty good and the proc itself is absolute garbage.  That said, the build below includes both because the set benefits can be worth it.  Its also how the build goes slightly above 45% defense while also attaining 185% global recharge.  Anyway, I don't think you'd gain much for using Ragnarok since the point of that set is 10% recharge which is already included.  

 

I don't want to tell you how you should build or play.  So everything below is 100% up for revision by you or anyone else.  Its not intended to be considered "perfect".  However, the slotting strategies should serve as an illustration of what I am talking about.  

 

Couple other points... 

 

In the originally posted build a conceptual attack routine of Antumbral Beam, Abyssal Gaze, Gloom, Dark Blast sounds fantastic on paper.  However, there is a pretty significant gap there before Antumbral Beam becomes available again.  So if you went into the Window options and clicked "DPS" Mids will tell you that attack chain does 191 DPS.  Its also bull$h!t.  Abyssal Gaze to DB is 4.884 seconds of animation and that gap (0.39 seconds) before the next AB will lower the DPS which isn't accounted for.  Still, this is actually a good chain to shoot for because Gloom is a really good T2 and Dark Blast, despite is low per target damage, is a good T1.  

However, if you up the recharge you can dump Gloom for Life Drain.  You can run Antumbral Beam, Abyssal Gaze, Life Drain, Dark Blast (Mid's won't count DB in the routine which is silly).  There is still a gap, but it is significantly smaller (0.12 seconds).  More damage is loaded into Abyssal Gaze and damage from Antumbral Beam is spread into Life Drain.  You could still use Gloom if you like, but it will likely lower some damage over time.  That just hypothetical napkin mathing and in real play you probably won't notice.  The only time really nitpicking this kind of rotation counts is if you're gunning for AVs where piling on that much damage can matter.  You could tinker with the slotting in DB and Gloom.  Sometimes I mule Apocalypse 5pc for the recharge and put the proc into a power that has no recharge modification (i.e., Antumbral Beam in this example).  You could change that up and go a different direction.  The difference is likely going to be small. 

 

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oldskool

oldskool

Posted
Posted
  On 7/27/2020 at 4:28 AM, plainguy said:

Just comparing the numbers to my Sentinel DP/SR Build and numerically we are almost the same.. 
That being said I am doing 3/8 out of the box without incarnates on my build.. 

Expand  

I didn't chime in on your other thread about it, but since you bring it up here... 

Dual Pistols can run around 205-215 DPS prior to getting your Alpha slot unlocked.  That's considering a build with procs and the more you stack the higher the DPS gets up to a point.  This has been tested by 3 different folks, my self included, and the results on builds have been pretty consistent.  

 

The damage is "low" when compared with builds that are pushing meta combinations.  However, if one bothered to look at some builds earlier on the Pylon thread they'd find some results of 180+ even on ATs known to be doing more damage.  

Its a whole beauty is in the eye of the behold thing while simultaneously reinforcing the idea that procs are very powerful and build decisions matter. 

plainguy

plainguy

Posted
Posted
  On 7/27/2020 at 12:00 PM, oldskool said:

I didn't chime in on your other thread about it, but since you bring it up here... 

Dual Pistols can run around 205-215 DPS prior to getting your Alpha slot unlocked.  That's considering a build with procs and the more you stack the higher the DPS gets up to a point.  This has been tested by 3 different folks, my self included, and the results on builds have been pretty consistent.  

 

The damage is "low" when compared with builds that are pushing meta combinations.  However, if one bothered to look at some builds earlier on the Pylon thread they'd find some results of 180+ even on ATs known to be doing more damage.  

Its a whole beauty is in the eye of the behold thing while simultaneously reinforcing the idea that procs are very powerful and build decisions matter. 

Expand  

I didn't look at the procs.. I was just looking at the defense and status info. Cutter has better numbers than I do. Thus I think he is short changing himself some extra xp and inf on not going to 3/8

Why Softcap is important: https://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011/01/why-is-softcap-so-important.html

Limits: https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits

Attack Mechanics: https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics

Semi & Petless Mastermind Builds: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/10994-petless-and-semi-petless-masterminds/

 

oldskool

oldskool

Posted
Posted
  On 7/27/2020 at 1:35 PM, plainguy said:

I didn't look at the procs.. I was just looking at the defense and status info. Cutter has better numbers than I do. Thus I think he is short changing himself some extra xp and inf on not going to 3/8

Expand  

I don't disagree.  BTW, I actually think it is great that you're enjoying the DP/SR build you have and I also think it is great that you're expressing how it runs in +3/x8.  I think it is incredibly helpful to have another voice saying "yes this AT can perform on this level" beyond my own.    

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Cutter

Cutter

Posted
  • Author
Posted
  On 7/27/2020 at 4:28 AM, plainguy said:

Just comparing the numbers to my Sentinel DP/SR Build and numerically we are almost the same.. 
That being said I am doing 3/8 out of the box without incarnates on my build.. 

 

Posted here for comparison 

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Now that I look at it, I'm 99% sure that the bulk of the /SR side of my build was lifted from yours. Mine came out of a few different posts but your build sticks out most as one I remember looking at. So some big thanks there!

@Cutter

 

So many alts, so little time...

Cutter

Cutter

Posted
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  On 7/27/2020 at 11:49 AM, oldskool said:

~a pile of info~

 

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Many thanks for this. I did a rebuild on my own last night that hits just over 181% recharge, which almost makes it. I see your hypothetical slims down to only AB and LD with procs. It looks like that's the difference here - you're getting some extra 10% recharge in favour of removing procs from the low percentage attacks.

 

More to think about!

@Cutter

 

So many alts, so little time...

Cutter

Cutter

Posted
  • Author
Posted
  On 7/27/2020 at 1:35 PM, plainguy said:

I didn't look at the procs.. I was just looking at the defense and status info. Cutter has better numbers than I do. Thus I think he is short changing himself some extra xp and inf on not going to 3/8

Expand  

Ugh yes triple post...

 

Dark vs DP seems to swing wildly in favour of DP in terms of AOE, which in my experience has been the driving force behind pushing to the /x8 side of the difficulty slider. Dark feels very single-target focused. Is that actually true in practice at the high end? And if so, is there value in looking at Umbral Torrent or an epic AOE to shore that up? Can Dark at 180+ recharge get away with a single-target chain in the vein of DB > AG > LD > AB > repeat? If so that would free a slot for another AOE to complement Dark Obliteration.

@Cutter

 

So many alts, so little time...

oldskool

oldskool

Posted
Posted
  On 7/27/2020 at 2:54 PM, Cutter said:

I see your hypothetical slims down to only AB and LD with procs.

Expand  

Not quite.

 

Abyssal Gaze has 5 procs.  You could easily swap something for Cloud Senses if you don't want two with Psi damage.  You could, potentially, go with all 6 slots as procs.  

 

Antumbral Beam has the three damage procs that are available to it.  I opted not to put Decimation: Chance for Build-Up, but I definitely thought about it.  

 

Life Drain has 3 common damage procs and those are there as the purple proc is in Antumbral Beam.  You could potentially put a Decimation: Chance for Build-Up or Theft of Essence here.  I'm not sure it is worth doing that.  

Dark Blast has a rough 30% chance to trigger a PPM 3.5 proc if it had zero recharge in it at all.  Frankly, the average damage boost for that isn't really worth giving up the set bonus in my opinion.  You could totally do it if you wanted, but you'd drop 10% recharge, and 2.5% ranged defense in process of picking up a small amount of DPS.  

 

Gloom isn't necessary for regular use here as Life Drain's average damage supersedes it.  So stuffing it full of procs doesn't make a lot of sense if its only use is to exploit double Opportunity.  

Cutter

Cutter

Posted
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  On 7/27/2020 at 7:07 PM, oldskool said:

Not quite.

 

Abyssal Gaze has 5 procs.  You could easily swap something for Cloud Senses if you don't want two with Psi damage.  You could, potentially, go with all 6 slots as procs.  

 

Antumbral Beam has the three damage procs that are available to it.  I opted not to put Decimation: Chance for Build-Up, but I definitely thought about it.  

 

Life Drain has 3 common damage procs and those are there as the purple proc is in Antumbral Beam.  You could potentially put a Decimation: Chance for Build-Up or Theft of Essence here.  I'm not sure it is worth doing that.  

Dark Blast has a rough 30% chance to trigger a PPM 3.5 proc if it had zero recharge in it at all.  Frankly, the average damage boost for that isn't really worth giving up the set bonus in my opinion.  You could totally do it if you wanted, but you'd drop 10% recharge, and 2.5% ranged defense in process of picking up a small amount of DPS.  

 

Gloom isn't necessary for regular use here as Life Drain's average damage supersedes it.  So stuffing it full of procs doesn't make a lot of sense if its only use is to exploit double Opportunity.  

Expand  

Derp, don't know how I missed AG! And I appreciate the reasoning behind Dark Blast and Gloom - I get the basics of number theory but struggle with proc math.

 

Once I get her slotted out (and finish leveling) I'll revisit this with tales of my exploits!

@Cutter

 

So many alts, so little time...

  • 1 year later
Gammos

Gammos

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 7/27/2020 at 11:49 AM, oldskool said:

You're welcome! 

 

Gloom's 20% res debuff is Defensive Opportunity.  It will be available on a single target for 15 seconds and have a downtime related to how long it takes to rebuild to 90% in the meter.  So its not nearly as reliable as something like Achilles' Heel would be, but it is still a good effect on tough targets.  I don't want to get into a drawn out discussion on the failures and merits of the inherent though.  Gloom's base damage is actually higher than Life Drain (90 vs 86).  The higher base damage and faster cast time makes it have better DPA.  However, Life Drain has more proc potential and that slightly favors Life Drain.  So if you went with a proc LD it becomes a viable replacement to Gloom.  

 

Why chase FF procs when you can just build for perma-Hasten?  I'd think that's the entire point behind picking Super Reflexes, Energy Aura, Electric Armor, or Radiation.  Take a gander at the build in the block below.  It has 185% global recharge which is more than enough to perma your Hastens.  I didn't change any powers to do it.  I just changed the slotting.  BTW, KO Blow has a base 40 second recharge which really puts a hurt on that plan.  Thunderstrike isn't much better at 36 seconds.  The Epic pools with some Goldilocks zone potential would be Psychic Mastery, Dark Mastery, and Fire Mastery.  Those sets have a melee power which animates and recharges within reasonable ranges while also doing respectable damage.  The holds in those sets can be made to work but Dominate is the best for the whole Goldilocks zone set of attributes.  What I mean by this is the animation and recharge impacts to proc chance are juuuuuuust right.  Not too long and not too short.  

Opportunity Strikes is hot crap for the proc.  The entire set bonus is pretty good though.  The Sentinel Ward set is the same way.  The bonuses are pretty good and the proc itself is absolute garbage.  That said, the build below includes both because the set benefits can be worth it.  Its also how the build goes slightly above 45% defense while also attaining 185% global recharge.  Anyway, I don't think you'd gain much for using Ragnarok since the point of that set is 10% recharge which is already included.  

 

I don't want to tell you how you should build or play.  So everything below is 100% up for revision by you or anyone else.  Its not intended to be considered "perfect".  However, the slotting strategies should serve as an illustration of what I am talking about.  

 

Couple other points... 

 

In the originally posted build a conceptual attack routine of Antumbral Beam, Abyssal Gaze, Gloom, Dark Blast sounds fantastic on paper.  However, there is a pretty significant gap there before Antumbral Beam becomes available again.  So if you went into the Window options and clicked "DPS" Mids will tell you that attack chain does 191 DPS.  Its also bull$h!t.  Abyssal Gaze to DB is 4.884 seconds of animation and that gap (0.39 seconds) before the next AB will lower the DPS which isn't accounted for.  Still, this is actually a good chain to shoot for because Gloom is a really good T2 and Dark Blast, despite is low per target damage, is a good T1.  

However, if you up the recharge you can dump Gloom for Life Drain.  You can run Antumbral Beam, Abyssal Gaze, Life Drain, Dark Blast (Mid's won't count DB in the routine which is silly).  There is still a gap, but it is significantly smaller (0.12 seconds).  More damage is loaded into Abyssal Gaze and damage from Antumbral Beam is spread into Life Drain.  You could still use Gloom if you like, but it will likely lower some damage over time.  That just hypothetical napkin mathing and in real play you probably won't notice.  The only time really nitpicking this kind of rotation counts is if you're gunning for AVs where piling on that much damage can matter.  You could tinker with the slotting in DB and Gloom.  Sometimes I mule Apocalypse 5pc for the recharge and put the proc into a power that has no recharge modification (i.e., Antumbral Beam in this example).  You could change that up and go a different direction.  The difference is likely going to be small. 

 

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So, I took the basis of your suggestions (because numbers make my head hurt haha) and tweaked it a little more to my interests, which might provide an alternate perspective for the OP. I've been looking for a good Dark/SR build since I got mine to 50 ages ago but he's been shelved until recently. I was tempted to get rid of SS since I usually ninja run everywhere and there's a lot of movement bonuses built in. I also decided not to take any APP attacks since I believe my attack chain is full enough as is. Plus, while Dominate was tempting, it wasn't strictly necessary to complete an attack chain (I don't think). My calculations may be off, but here's my attempt. On paper it looks good but feel free to pick it apart hehe 🙂

 

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  • (A) Empty
  • (A) Empty
  • (A) Run Speed IO
  • (A) Numina's Convalesence - +Regeneration/+Recovery
  • (11) Miracle - +Recovery
  • (50) Panacea - +Hit Points/Endurance
  • (A) Jumping IO
  • (A) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End
  • (13) Performance Shifter - EndMod

------------

 

Edited by Gammos
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