Future Content and Updates

[epictaco]

So I think it's safe to say that we all know the last update publicly made by Paragon was i24, and hopefully everyone now knows about the fan-made update i25 released by SCoRE by now, but my question that I can't seem to get a clear answer on is.... what next?

 

There's a lot of conflicting information around about who is working with who on what and the future of content development. I understand that some servers want the game as last seen in 2012 and have thus reverted back to i24, but for everyone else who is going to continue updating the game? Does SCoRE intend on rolling out "common" updates for non-i24 servers using Tequila/CreamSoda? Is Homecoming working on adding their own content/working on their own updates in the future, or at least any collaboration with SCoRE or other servers?

 

I understand if it is still too early to have a definite answer for any of these questions but I would greatly appreciate if you guys could provide any insight to this.

[_NOPE_]

Last I heard Project Ouroboros was working on a stable I24 to branch off from, and Homecoming was sticking with moving forward from I25.

[epictaco]

Guess that makes sense, from the sounds of the Ouroboros wiki they plan on making the stable i24 build but only as a "starting point" for other servers to make their own content and adjustments from the original game.

 

I'm really hoping that we at least have *some* system of common updates between the major private servers, or at least take advantage of a "differential" updating system with branching like git-- I don't want 10 different copies of the game to play on different servers.

[_NOPE_]

I'd like the Linux model. Having "Vanilla" CoH, and then Homecoming CoH, CoxG CoH, Titan Network CoH, etc. etc.

[epictaco]

My main complaint with that system is if your server gets taken down then the transition to another becomes all the more painful.

 

Speaking of Linux though, I wouldn't complain about an update system with one centralized group writing updates to fix bugs or major mechanics who can then push their fixes downstream to all the servers who have their own "branch" of the game. Either way git is almost certainly going to be utilized at some point to keep these builds loosely together and to make community contributions actually manageable, that is unless all the servers decide that they want to "compete" with each other instead of helping each other keep the community alive and interested which isn't impossible at this point...

 

Tequila already has the ability to keep multiple versions of the client and it knows which servers to associate which version with so that's a start. All Leo would need to do with my idea is essentially just make the launcher a server browser/git GUI client.

 

I know I'm preaching to the choir here but I would really love to see this community working together more on this development, the more like the open source community the better IMO.

[jubakumbi]

I know I'm preaching to the choir here but I would really love to see this community working together more on this development, the more like the open source community the better IMO.

 

Personally, I can see almost endless content being added once the tools are in place by the creative types that lost this in CoH, Neverwinter, and STO.

I think once there is a 'base' that can be easily modded by a non geek, the real fun begins.

 

But code updates are a whole different ballgame.

Software development 'by committee' does not even work when everyone is paid to make it happen, IME. :)

 

And the idea that the Open Source Community 'works together' is ... not exactly accurate from my PoV. :)

In general, OSS development is frantic and un-organized on lots of things.

 

We can already see 3-4 very distict groups of players emerging, some of whom refuse to give air to the others.

Traditionalists vs. Funchasers if you will.

 

The Sentinal, for example, is trashed a lot, being called a 'selfish' AT. Over and over I see the old, "What's the point?" line trying to bring it down.

The power proliferation terrifies some because 'players can never be trusted to balance things.'

Personally, I am plugging 'back to the real idea' of just being able to choose from all primaries and secondaries and a free from approach, which has definately invoked some ire.

 

I get that for a lot of people, the fun is in the busy servers.

People that 'just want to play with others' will have to deal with whatever the larger servers do or don't do for future updates.

As others have mentioned, many games in this state run successfully for years with no updates at all.

 

I will also add that persoanlly, I just like to play, and the idea of 'having to move to another server and start over' is not a bad thing to me, just another opportunity to make that next idea.

[epictaco]

I guess I'm just worries about the game becoming so deviated on each server that it essentially just becomes another "spiritual successor" type situation compared to the "continuation of the game" situation I think a lot of us were hoping for (me included).

 

And the idea that the Open Source Community 'works together' is ... not exactly accurate from my PoV. :)

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one because we probably have different definitions of "working together". I'm not talking about making one single, linear system of updating that would depend on a bunch of devs agreeing on the same changes, I'm talking about establishing a "baseline" update system that allows for easy modification so that forks can be made easily, and any bugfixes written by one server can be applied to other servers when the patch is applied upstream.

 

Re-reading my posts it does sound like I'm hoping for a single team of developers to continue development for us, but really I'm just hoping that this clusterf*** of information going on right now doesn't only worsen by having every server be running a completely different system. Right now we're at a crucial point where everyone is running one of two versions of the game, and the newer version is already directly evolved from the other version being used to patches can already be shared between them for the most part, but that can quickly change to the point where starting a new private server with updates becomes too cumbersome and convoluted for almost anyone to do, thus threatening the further existence of the game as a whole (as it reduces the number of targets for NCSoft).

 

Basically I just want to be able to start a "basic" server with the core game content and applied bugfixes/patches/optimizations, modify it to my liking (*ideally* using only config files), then release it on a launcher without the need for everyone to re-download the game for each server they want to join. At that point new content (missions, zones, ATs) could be loaded modularly so admins can pick and choose the content they like, thus allowing for multiple "flavors" of the game to exist without the need for major client-side changes or extensive coding to add server customizations.

[Jumbley]

As has been mentioned, there are groups of people that want different things for the future of the game.  At some point, the Homecoming team will have to make a choice between continuing to add to and tweak the game or not, which will disappoint some part of these groups in either case. These people will have to make a choice between sticking with Homecoming anyway, or transitioning to a different server that offers what they're looking for, which might have a smaller active population. There just won't be a way to please everybody, so I personally hope they don't try to.

 

I guess then I would agree with the argument against an open-source development for Homecoming's potential update content, if that's the direction they take. Absolutely listen the feedback of the community and outsource for help, but let the final say on what actually goes in the patches remain in the hands of a few individuals chosen by the live team. IMO, a player-run development committee will only run up against the problem of trying to accommodate everyone's wants, to the detriment of the entire project.

[Sothoth]

I'd like the Linux model. Having "Vanilla" CoH, and then Homecoming CoH, CoxG CoH, Titan Network CoH, etc. etc.

 

Fracturing an already small community.

You'll have plenty of servers, but they'll all be ghost towns.

[jkwak]

the Updates where like comic issues named so i dont know about the technic behind the whole thing but i bet someone will make a update and call it issue1^^

 

Because every time they bring a death Hero/Team/Universe back in Comics they start counting the issue numbers again

 

[epictaco]

IMO, a player-run development committee will only run up against the problem of trying to accommodate everyone's wants, to the detriment of the entire project.

 

That's not what I'm arguing for, though, I'm just saying we need have everyone currently working on the project to agree to certain foundational standards to establish a "base game" that can be added to and tweaked by the server admin using modular packs so instead of 25 full game clients with slight differences everywhere for 25 servers, we have 1 full game client that still receives baseline updates for core/backend features while allowing for modularity on the server end. This allows for the end users to only download the full client once and then only downloads additional assets/DLLs as needed, with the additional benefit of everyone receiving bugfix and optimization updates regardless of server/group affiliation.

 

Once again I'm not arguing for a central group of people to decide the development of the game, I'm arguing for a system that allows the servers to continue to work together easily as well as allowing crossover-development between the servers so the community doesn't continue to shatter further *and* so the next big server can be set up with ease if one is taken down by NCSoft. The way things are looking right now every major server has separate development priorities and teams with very little coordination between them, which is perfectly fine if the game is modular but in its current state I fear we'll end up just fragmenting the community again into a select few groups that have the technical skills and *underground know-how* to run a large public server, which is a very real threat if NCSoft decides to take action.

 

EDIT: so it looks like my idea is very very similar to what Ouroboros is planning to do-- release i24 as the "base game" and continue working on the backend/engine in the meantime, while letting individual servers add their own content and tweaks on top. Hopefully Homecoming comes to their senses and warms up to that idea so we don't end up with 2 entirely different game clients. I'm not saying they should dump all i25 stuff and jump on board with the Ouroboros team, but I hope they at least keep the clients mostly interchangeable.

[Zep]

There was an official I25 in Beta when things closed down. I believe it had new zones, a space station, or at least I read that back then.

 

I'm good with the new content.

 

Lots of things need to be updated and fixed, or so I hear, before features start to be added. Be nice when we get to that point. Take a lot of resources, writers, artists, animators, be nice to see COH go 'live' again and have it get the love we all want it to have.

[jubakumbi]

And the idea that the Open Source Community 'works together' is ... not exactly accurate from my PoV. :)

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one because we probably have different definitions of "working together". I'm not talking about making one single, linear system of updating that would depend on a bunch of devs agreeing on the same changes, I'm talking about establishing a "baseline" update system that allows for easy modification so that forks can be made easily, and any bugfixes written by one server can be applied to other servers when the patch is applied upstream.

 

Basically I just want to be able to start a "basic" server with the core game content and applied bugfixes/patches/optimizations, modify it to my liking (*ideally* using only config files), then release it on a launcher without the need for everyone to re-download the game for each server they want to join. At that point new content (missions, zones, ATs) could be loaded modularly so admins can pick and choose the content they like, thus allowing for multiple "flavors" of the game to exist without the need for major client-side changes or extensive coding to add server customizations.

 

Ok, we are on the same page. :)

 

I'd like the Linux model. Having "Vanilla" CoH, and then Homecoming CoH, CoxG CoH, Titan Network CoH, etc. etc.

 

Fracturing an already small community.

You'll have plenty of servers, but they'll all be ghost towns.

 

This is a very real possibility, IMO.

The larger populations are going to have to 'just get along' to be larger populations.

The next year will be interesting.

[Jumbley]

Hopefully Homecoming comes to their senses and warms up to that idea so we don't end up with 2 entirely different game clients. I'm not saying they should dump all i25 stuff and jump on board with the Ouroboros team, but I hope they at least keep the clients mostly interchangeable.

 

Well, until Ouroboros actually achieves what they're setting out to do (an intensely daunting project in the first place) then I don't think there's much sense for Homecoming to come to, yet.

 

If they do actually succeed at making a stable, modular baseline client for CoH, that won't break the existing infrastructure to replace, there'd be no real reason not to use it, right?

 

There was an official I25 in Beta when things closed down. I believe it had new zones, a space station, or at least I read that back then.

 

I'm good with the new content.

 

Lots of things need to be updated and fixed, or so I hear, before features start to be added. Be nice when we get to that point. Take a lot of resources, writers, artists, animators, be nice to see COH go 'live' again and have it get the love we all want it to have.

 

Hear hear. I'm very excited about the potential for the future.

[epictaco]

Well, until Ouroboros actually achieves what they're setting out to do (an intensely daunting project in the first place) then I don't think there's much sense for Homecoming to come to, yet.

 

...which would be much easier if Leo and the Homecoming team would lend assistance on that front instead of continuing adding stuff to i25. My main complaint right now is that not enough of the devs seem to be willing to establish a baseline before working on relatively minute tweaks to make their server slightly more appealing. Right now Ouroboros hasn't even started working on the Client architecture, only Server, and although that is continuing at a pretty good rate I feel like the priorities are all mixed up here and as a result there is a very real risk of a baseline never being established... The Homecoming team seems to have all the technical skills and the most intimate knowledge of the game's backend to make it happen in a reasonable timeframe but almost none of them are working on this AFAIK.

[jubakumbi]

...which would be much easier if Leo and the Homecoming team would lend assistance on that front instead of continuing adding stuff to i25. My main complaint right now is that not enough of the devs seem to be willing to establish a baseline before working on relatively minute tweaks to make their server slightly more appealing. Right now Ouroboros hasn't even started working on the Client architecture, only Server, and although that is continuing at a pretty good rate I feel like the priorities are all mixed up here and as a result there is a very real risk of a baseline never being established... The Homecoming team seems to have all the technical skills and the most intimate knowledge of the game's backend to make it happen in a reasonable timeframe but almost none of them are working on this AFAIK.

 

Are really going to bring that made up drama here?

People are allowed free will and trying to shame them into doing what you think is right sounds terribly controlling to me.

 

Is that how you meant to come across?

 

Do you think that it is not possible to contribute in more than one area at a time?

 

I am sorry, but you sound a lot like you are demanding a geek spend thier own time creating something you could just go get the code and do.

[jkwak]

There was an official I25 in Beta when things closed down. I believe it had new zones, a space station, or at least I read that back then.

they had plans for the official I25 nothing more, they didnt even finished the fine tuning for the I24 beta.

[_NOPE_]

Hear hear. I'm very excited about the potential for the future.

 

And I'm just excited that we have a future with potential.

[epictaco]

Are really going to bring that made up drama here?

People are allowed free will and trying to shame them into doing what you think is right sounds terribly controlling to me.

 

(1) Leo does work on the Homecoming team and they are currently working on advancing i25, I don't know what you consider "made up" in that claim...

 

(2) Complaining about the direction of the project is hardly "shaming", I'm just saying that it's a bit backwards that the people most qualified to take on the most difficult and arguably most essential task is caught up on the details instead of working toward the big picture.

 

Do you think that it is not possible to contribute in more than one area at a time?

 

No, but when the direction of the two projects in question conflict then it makes it very difficult.

 

I am sorry, but you sound a lot like you are demanding a geek spend thier own time creating something you could just go get the code and do.

 

Whew, and you're accusing me of spreading drama? Once again, disagreement is not a form of harassment, shaming, hate speech, demands, threat, etc that you seem to be interpreting it as. I'm just trying to get some clarification on where the direction of the game is going and if it has a viable future as an open platform. I think it's fair to want to at least want to know if a project/community is worth the time investment if it's just going to be taken down/fragmented into nothingness in a few months anyway. I'm not implying anyone on the team is obligated to do anything, but since they are doing things I would like to at least know what the general plan is before I get disappointed again... I think anyone considering investing in this community at least deserves that.

 

Much more well funded and popular projects have been killed by a lack of direction, I'd hate to see the same thing happen here simply because there seems to be a lack of communication or agreement in the community.

[_NOPE_]

Here's an idea:

 

[epictaco]

I don't know if I just come off as angry when typing or something but I actually do want to read all the replies, not just the ones that agree with me!

 

Not everything online has to be memes and agreements!

[jubakumbi]

(2) Complaining about the direction of the project is hardly "shaming", I'm just saying that it's a bit backwards that the people most qualified to take on the most difficult and arguably most essential task is caught up on the details instead of working toward the big picture.

 

Much more well funded and popular projects have been killed by a lack of direction, I'd hate to see the same thing happen here simply because there seems to be a lack of communication or agreement in the community.

 

That's why I _asked_ if that's what you meant, because to me it did (and does) sound like you are trying to tell them they need to do it your way.

Calling thier way backwards is _not_ an attempt to shame them into changing?

What word would prefer besides shame? Correct?

 

In case you did not know, there has been a consistant wailing agaist L and HC team for 'not helping other enough'.

I am a proffesional geek.

IME, from the data I have at hand, people are asking for things they need to figure out for themselves and I tire, in RL, of non-technical people expecting geeks to do their bidding and bossing them around, saying they are doing is 'backwards' for example. *shrug*

Call it a hot button.

 

If you think the Development community can communicate better, then you have the power to join that community as an information manager.

 

I see no lack of direction, I see many directions.

I also see people that want to see a 'dedicated plan' they can sail by though, like a retail game. :)

 

Nit picking where other people choose to spend thier time, for free, working on a passion project is rude, IMO. :)

 

These people got the game running for us and I don't feel like being quiet when I see some one tell them what they 'should' be doing.

[Frakk]

It seems to me that your "Big Picture"  is not what Leo and the other Dev's are working on,  For some reason they seem to be working on their "Big Picture". . .

 

How Dare they?

[jubakumbi]

Here's an idea:

 

PK, I am not putting anyone on ignore.

I am a big boy and I will happily hash out _anything_ this board can throw at me.

I don't come to message boards on the Internet not expecting to encounter people who don't like my PoV.

As I have posted just recently, if you don't understand me, just ask, I will try to explain.

If you take the worst view of my PoV and then attack, I will fight back...and still try to explain my viewpoint.

I try to use data and logic, but I am human and I have passions and emotions.

 

Everthing that occurs on boards like this is just idle speculative dribble anyway and besides, how else am I supposed to waste time at work?

[Skyhawke]

Here's an idea:

 

 

Best idea here so far. Thanks!  As for me, I'm just happy to be in the City again, taking it as I want and not rushing anything.  There's a metric butload of content in COH, COV and GR to keep me busy for quite a time to come...and that's just with a couple "mains".  Don't get me started on alts...