Request: Tremor

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, nihilii said:

Be as it may, some people prefer to have full free reign over their attack chain. It's not useful to insist the difference is meaningless when it clearly matters to a part of the population.

You still have free reign over your attack chain on every set with the exception of TW.

 

The next question points to playing optimal or not.  For example even if you did not play new EM to take advantage of focus it is still an improvement.

 

There are already built in walls that will corrall you to where the optimization lies even on sets without a mechanic - recharge is a big one that will eventially force a direction on what attacks can be up and when forcing choices on when to use what power anyway.

 

But as I have said many times being optimal is not a prereq.  Sets that require 1 power that you would/should use anyway to unlock a feature - I wouldn't call it an issue at that point, but it does corrall you to what is optimal faster.

 

1 hour ago, nihilii said:

A 1-2 combo where special effect 2 only happens if 1 happened first, and 2 cannot be replaced by 3, ... is a gimmick. Using a debuff before using an attack is not a gimmick.

That really kinda is the same thing, if you know that a power in the set has a debuff that makes the other powers after it more powerful, while not being required - goes back to playing optimal.  Its still a feature of the set - mechanic -that makes what follows it more potent.

[nihilii]

8 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

That really kinda is the same thing

Pick one of two:

 

1) It is most definitely not the same thing, and I think even you are aware of that, hence words like "kind of". X + any != X + Y.

2) If it is the same thing, then there's no reason to tie conditions to specific powers. Open up the special effects to every power to the point it's as generic as debuff + attack. For people who believe it is the same thing, nothing changes. And for people who don't and are upset about the changes, they won't get to complain anymore. Win/win.

 

Basically, any argument CoH combos/conditionals don't differ from regular power design is self-defeating if you're actually pro combos, because it's essentially arguing for a solution that offers no subjective benefit to the speaker yet upsets another part of the population. Whether that other part of the population is misguided or not doesn't matter. The moment you posit combos/conditionals are "irrelevant", you've got one group where the two solutions are good and one group where only one of the two solutions is good. Common sense and empathy dictate you pick the solution that is good for everyone.

 

(Less tongue in cheek? Let's put to rest that silly pretense combos don't matter. Some people like them, some people don't like them. Some people may be lucky enough that their own particular playstyle means there's no difference and genuinely may not understand there is a difference, but I suspect it would take a very self-centered person to be active on the forums and yet ignore all the evidence of other people feeling differently.)

 

 

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, nihilii said:

Pick one of two:

 

1) It is most definitely not the same thing, and I think even you are aware of that, hence words like "kind of". X + any != X + Y.

2) If it is the same thing, then there's no reason to tie conditions to specific powers. Open up the special effects to every power to the point it's as generic as debuff + attack. For people who believe it is the same thing, nothing changes. And for people who don't and are upset about the changes, they won't get to complain anymore. Win/win.

 

Basically, any argument CoH combos/conditionals don't differ from regular power design is self-defeating if you're actually pro combos, because it's essentially arguing for a solution that offers no subjective benefit to the speaker yet upsets another part of the population. Whether that other part of the population is misguided or not doesn't matter. The moment you posit combos/conditionals are "irrelevant", you've got one group where the two solutions are good and one group where only one of the two solutions is good. Common sense and empathy dictate you pick the solution that is good for everyone.

 

(Less tongue in cheek? Let's put to rest that silly pretense combos don't matter. Some people like them, some people don't like them. Some people may be lucky enough that their own particular playstyle means there's no difference and genuinely may not understand there is a difference, but I suspect it would take a very self-centered person to be active on the forums and yet ignore all the evidence of other people feeling differently.)

 

 

What you are describing is the same scenario.

 

I dont know how else to put it.

 

Feature X buffs Y in either scenario, but neither are required.

 

Neither are world breakingly difficult.

 

I'm not saying people have to like it, just the reason that is being used of it being a disruption to play style isn't logically valid because

 

1. You dont have to use it, its not like momentum that locks powers out.

2. Its part of how a normal attack chain would flow anyway - the major disruption to the attack chain in the case of EM was BS and they removed the focus mechanic from it.

 

Its just hard to buy not liking it under those scenarios and take it any other way than not giving it a fair trial.

[Troo]

3 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Edit to add: DO expect special mechanics on completely new sets, though.

I think this is great! (just to be clear)

[Galaxy Brain]

(Forum goof)
 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Epoch Paradox]

7 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

Sorry. I main Kinetic Melee, so there is nowhere to go except up.😉

I was looking for an account wide nerf, not a powerset nerf! You're just too OP. ;D

 

[Galaxy Brain]

  

2 hours ago, nihilii said:

Be as it may, some people prefer to have full free reign over their attack chain. It's not useful to insist the difference is meaningless when it clearly matters to a part of the population.

 

I feel we all know what "gimmick" entails within this context. An attack having higher numbers one way or another is not a gimmick. A 1-2 combo where special effect 2 only happens if 1 happened first, and 2 cannot be replaced by 3, ... is a gimmick. Using a debuff before using an attack is not a gimmick.

 

"conditional" as C_P says is a good way to put it too. People unhappy about the introduction of conditional mechanics on their beloved sets are likely to use more pejorative words. Being pedantic won't convince anyone who isn't already on board.

 

The debuff example I feel hits these two points. Sure, you can choose not to apply (debuff) on your target and just start swinging, much like how with most all Conditional sets you can do the same. Its not *optimal* to disregard these interactions but you are free to do so in nearly every case.

 

 

Off the top of my head:

Psy Melee: literally only matters for 1 power, and it's a "big finisher" style power anyways you won't always whip out. Any power can also trigger this, so its a lot more free form.

 

Staff: two powers can spend combo points here, and luckily said powers do not spend unless you have max stacks! Technically even more free form than Psy Melee else you have max stacks, but its incredibly easy to regain stacks.

 

Street Justice: All powers that are not "Spenders" actively build up your combo meter. There is no penalty for unleashing a finisher early or with no Combo Meter at all aside from "wasting" meter when it could have been better.

 

Water Blast: All powers that are not "Spenders" actively build up your combo meter. There is no penalty for unleashing a finisher early or with no Combo Meter at all aside from "wasting" meter when it could have been better.

 

Titan Weapons: Two powers can only be used when you have momentum. This is the only set that straight-up prevents you from playing a certain way unless you engage the mechanic, but literally playing the set lets you use said mechanic 80% of the time in combat.

 

Energy Melee: Power A can buff powers B, C, or D in a 1-2 combo choice depending on your situation. This does sort of railroad you into a 1-2 choice, but thats sort of all combat in CoH anyways where you have a few powers you'd always whip out in a fight.

 

Dual Blades: This one is admittedly complex as hell with several different combo-trees that require specific power queues that all also have to hit. (Please apply TW logic to this where it's auto hit 😄 ). Ironically, the "Best" use of DB ignores combos.

 

Gravity Control: Gravity's Impact mechanic is a legit combo where you need to set up an enemy to take added effects. You technically don't need to do this though.

 

Beam Rifle: Like Gravity, you can mark a foe with Disintegration to "combo" into more effects. You technically don't need to do this though.

 

Rad Melee/Assault and Atomic Manipulation: Another very self-contained mechanic, Rad powers can proc off each other to either proc Splash Damage or bonus effects if you match a Negative and Positive Ion power.

 

Time: You select two targets to either take added debuffs or added buffs. Again, you can theoretically skip these and do ok.

 

Elec Affinity: Elec's stacking mechanic is only spent by 1 power IIRC, which while a cool move is not 100% needed.

 

Martial Arts: Eagle's Claw has a hidden critical or damage multiplier depending on the AT for the next attack you immediately queue up. This can be ignored and you still do well.

 

Savage Melee: Blood Frenzy is unique in that it actually gives you a legit choice between holding onto stacks for the passive buffs they give, or spending them on one of two finishers that do get significant boosts from the cost. This one is a little different as there is a lock-out before you can regain stacks unlike other Builder + Spender sets, but outside of Staff the others do not give you passive bonuses per stack nor is the payoff as drastic when spent. That said, you can still not spend stacks here and IIRC if you do not have max stacks the spenders do not lock you out?

 

Sentinels: This one is legit where you suddenly have a mini-dilemma when it comes to using your T1 or T2 power at the wrong time. The opportunity (hehe) cost here feels out of whack for me during normal play when its like... oh crap, I gotta pick a target worthy of marking with Opportunity else I waste it for the next couple minutes.

 

Stalkers: Similar to sentinels with Assassin's Focus but nowhere near as bad due to how it works, in combat you can build up to 3 stacks of focus which give Assassin's Strike +33% crit rate each (which makes it guaranteed IIRC at 3 stacks), making Fast AS hit very hard in a controlled manner. You have to build up to this, but the fun bit is that you can gamble a little with trying to land a crit at 1 stack since it ends up being like 43% right away, and in a team it can be even better.

 

 

 

So, off the top of my head, out of the existing combo mechanics the only ones that really "force" you to use them are Titan Weapons (which isn't really forceful as its hard NOT to get momentum, though it does lock out 2 powers as openers without the BU power), and Sentinels with how you suddenly have to use your starter powers a different way on a select target. With everything else, you are allowed to play a different way if you wish and with many you even have multiple options and flexibility with how to use said combos. 

 

One of those things are a whole AT so you kind of sign up for it, and it is up for review anyways. The other is a set that will be even easier to use in the very near future (auto Momentum hype). Ignoring Stalkers and Sentinels, that is roughly ~17 powersets out of the easily 120+ or so total sets in the game, and of that 17 only 1 actually "forces" you to do X before Y. Other sets do not lock out powers, sure they may be worse without the combo (or in Dual Blade's case better if you ignore it lol) but you still have the option to ignore the combo system and play your way.

 

This is why it is similar to the choice of Debuff or Self Buff -> Power vs just letting it rip right away. Just like how nothing is forcing you to Debuff/Buff before attacking, you are still better off for doing so.

 

 

[nihilii]

19 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Ironically, the "Best" use of DB ignores combos.

Nitpick largely irrelevant to the topic at hand: on Tankers at least, going for BF -> AV gives you better DPS than BF -> AS -> SS -> AS, provided you go without local recharge. DB attacks being fast recharge low damage to start with, the lenient requirements of BF -> AV really make that proc rate shoot up.