MA vs StJ

[drgantz]

I've read some posts that StJ is better because it is newer.  I've also read posts that StJ is mostly good as a Stalker, but not so much as a Scrapper.
There is a post in this forum comparing many Scrapper sets.  Most of the charts rank MA above StJ.  Of course, most of the testing was probably done in more controlled situations than regular playing, so it probably isn't that accurate.

Which do you think is better?

 

[StriderIV]

2 hours ago, drgantz said:

I've read some posts that StJ is better because it is newer.  I've also read posts that StJ is mostly good as a Stalker, but not so much as a Scrapper.
There is a post in this forum comparing many Scrapper sets.  Most of the charts rank MA above StJ.  Of course, most of the testing was probably done in more controlled situations than regular playing, so it probably isn't that accurate.

Which do you think is better?

 

It’s been quite a while since I’ve played MA, but I recently rolled at StJ/Bio scrapper and it is a beast. If you go down the forums a bit, you’ll find a thread discussing STJ on both a Stalker and a Scrapper.

 

The long and short of it is, it’s great on both. Better burst on Stalker, more sustained damage on scrappers.

[nihilii]

Scrapper StJ > Scrapper MA for single target damage at high level.

MA wins on AoE, but that's largely because StJ AoE is catastrophic. Dragon's Tail isn't anything special either; although it has a nice swift animation time and knockdown effect, so that's fun.

 

Another boon for MA against StJ specifically, it exemplars much better. Storm Kick is your best attack (lvl 1 pick), Cobra Strike and Crane Kick are both strong attacks at lvl 2 and 8, and Crippling Axe Kick comes at lvl 18. Eagle's Claw being optional, you can deal impressive damage output at low level. Whereas StJ really needs Crushing Uppercut to come together, and gets a lot out of Moonbeam/Zapp, making it a character best played at lvl 30 and above.

MA might be better overall, but there's a hard ceiling on performance due to lengthy animation times and smoothed out performance all over the set. StJ tends to pull ahead in the late game as it has basically 3 good attacks, so benefits heavily from recharge and epics; once it comes together, StJ has some VERY satisfying mechanics.

 

It's hard to give a clear winner, it will depend on your personal goals. You can't go wrong with either choice.

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, nihilii said:

Scrapper StJ > Scrapper MA for single target damage at high level.

 

Is it?  

 

Ive done STJ and MA at vet levels for Scrapper and Stalker 

 

For Stalker STJ is definitely better.   

 

For scrapper MA seems probably slightly better overall.   Maybe you are right about the ST idk, it can't be by much.   

 

For both ATs MA definitely is better at low level.  After they changed Cobra Strike, MA can get a great ST attack Chain at a very low level.   

Edited February 13, 2021 by Haijinx

[Hjarki]

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Is it? 

Storm -> Cobra -> Storm -> Axe would be (103.2 * 2 + 134.9 + 145.9) / (1.056 * 2 + 1.848 * 2) = 83.88 dpa

Rib Cracker -> Shin Breaker -> Rib Cracker -> Crushing Uppercut would be (90.84 * 2 + 112.9 + 248.62) / (1.584 * 3 + 2.376) = 76.21 dpa or 81.73 dpa once 7.5% resist debuff is factored in.

 

There are obviously many possible rotations - these are just achievable rotations near the limit of recharge you're likely to have.

 

The -7.5% resist debuff would obviously more useful for your team. Less obviously, Street Justice suffers far more than MA when you're talking about fights that aren't just a pylon. A key advantage of MA is that if the rotation is interrupted, it restarts at the high dpa point. Street Justice is a more conventional set where interruptions cause you to emphasize the low dpa parts of the rotations and compounds this with the disruption of the combo building mechanic. Street Justice also slightly underperforms the numbers above because only part of Crushing Uppcut can crit.

 

 

 

[nihilii]

8 hours ago, Haijinx said:

For scrapper MA seems probably slightly better overall.   Maybe you are right about the ST idk, it can't be by much.

MA is somewhat bound by animation times, and there's no high recharge attack to (ab)use the Critical Strikes proc. Even though the attacks start out great, this limits the ST juice you can squeeze somewhat.

 

You can pick EC and stuff the proc in it. EC is decent but not fantastic, even with no local recharge that's about a 70% chance to proc.

 

Storm Kick and CAK are must haves, Storm Kick for the DPA and CAK for the DPA and -res (Achilles' Heel).

 

Moonbeam is barely better than Cobra Strike/Crane Kick.

 

All MA attack chains seem to roughly end up at the same point. Whether SK CAK SK CS/MB, SK EC SK CAK MB, SK EC SK CAK CS... You deal great sustained DPS, topping in the 500ish range.

 

StJ gets a lot out of high level options. Crushing Uppercut easily makes for 90% chance to proc Critical Strikes, and Moonbeam lets you flesh out your attack chain into CU RC SB MB RC SB, for near guaranteed crits on half of the RCs and SBs, toying with the 600ish DPS range.

 

Those figures assume /bio, but I'm not sure any specificity of /bio would favor StJ more than MA to the point the gap would be closed elsewhere.

 

The near guaranteed crits on RC and SB are what make StJ pull ahead for me. They clear a +4 minion with one hit, making for a satisfying "one-and-done, move to the next one" in situations where stuff is scattered, rather than herd and wait. Opposite to Hjarki's opinion (big shocker, I know), I find StJ more enjoyable than MA in real play thanks to its up-down nature. You have a clear weak part of the attack chain to replace with misc clicks: one of the two RC SB in the second part of the attack chain. BU (Combat Readiness, whatever) also lets you initiate combo level 3 at will even if you take a big break (say you're getting hammered and use tons of defensive clicks).

 

MA has attacks that almost defeat targets in X hits but not quite, less deterministic crits and lots of overkill damage. Against tougher targets there's no clear slow part of the attack chain to use your clicks - somewhat "worse", Storm Kick is your best move and everything that isn't Storm Kick or Moonbeam is a 1.848s animation or above, yet more slight waste with many misc clicks being 1.32s or under.

 

It probably isn't the biggest deal and I'm likely conflating issues of personal feel with everything else here. Dragon's Tail likely makes MA better in overall play anyway.

[StrikerFox]

Obitus did a detailed comparison of MA vs StJ during live (For Scrappers). StJ was ahead a little. I'm not sure how much of it is still valid with changes implemented between 2012 to present. Addition of ATO2 and CAK being able to slot Achilles' Heel now.

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20120905235041/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=276359