A modest proposal - Eliminate Sameness by removing the ability to Softcap. (Long)

[Voltak]

4 hours ago, Naraka said:

Would it have been accomplishable without IO def cap melees?

First, the fact, the vastly more important fact, which contradicts the call for a nerf ON THE BASIS that the game content is too easy when content is paired vs IOs , the fact that contradicts that is that the mission, the challenge could not succeed without heavy support 

Once it is established that uber builds with uber IO combinations cannot complete a challenge without support, then the whole claim that the game is broken due to IO sets being too powerful vs content is dead and defeated


Even defense capped characters died.  

We even resorted to having some players die on purpose so we can cast vengeance

The support team had to fill the holes that the enemy was making on the defenses/resists of the characters 

WITHOUT the SUPPORT anyone else was not accomplishing the mission

That fact refutes the claim made. 

[Voltak]

2 hours ago, Naraka said:

Farmers tend to saturate def and res, so fire farmers and s/l farms are still functional.

 

I think you exaggerate. I often play characters who don't sit at the soft cap but somehow my characters don't become vaporized like you predict. It's simply a matter of blending mitigation methods. You can have 0 def and walk out of some fights with nary a scratch by just utilizing KB. 

 

And I find it suspect that "melees are never in a tidal wave of enemies except in farms" but "support are subject to AoEs and PBAoEs". In the 2nd case, simple range can decrease the number you're subjected to. No squishy is helpless just because a melee can only taunt some of a group. 

 

Like I said before, a support is in the market of taking fewer dice rolls whether that's by debuffing/controlling or just not getting in the thick of things while the melees have fewer tricks to attempt the same sans a few specialty build. And if your squishies do get vaporized, try playing more blasters. It takes some practice but you can do it without soft cap 

The game already has content that poses a great challenge to any build that reaches the soft cap via IOs or power choices 
Those challenges will most likely not be overcome without support or without other combinations in the team make up or otherwise


Vast majority of players avoid that content or does not even know 

And, not only players can now or have already created the content, but the Devs can add new challenges to face the rise, a rise created by design, and from the natural outcome from playing and progress

The solution here is to do what is normally done --->  Bring new challenges, and direct players or lead players into those challenges 

No way a nerf to gear is needed at all. 

 

[Naraka]

41 minutes ago, Voltak said:

The statement specifically said -->

"Those games often don't have mitigation caps reached by their gear alone..." 

Gear in CoX is IOs.  IN fact it is the only gear you have 

Those IOs you placed in your powers and they get slotted

Sort of like you are wearing them, then. when you unslot them you don't "wear" them anymore

That is gear 



THat's what I mean by it. 


So, no, the statement I quote is wrong.  Power choices have to be made in order to reach that level 

 

No, "gear" in CoX is your *build* since you can't equip IOs without your powers.

 

If you really need a win them whatever. Exchange the word "gear" with "build". If you can't somehow take the logical step that what is literally equippable armor in other games are toggled on powers on this game then the same statement is true using build.

 

33 minutes ago, Voltak said:

First, the fact, the vastly more important fact, which contradicts the call for a nerf ON THE BASIS that the game content is too easy when content is paired vs IOs , the fact that contradicts that is that the mission, the challenge could not succeed without heavy support 

Ugly run-on sentence. If you have to add tangential or non-essential words in the middle of a statement, you can use parentheses or something... Anything but just drowning your sentence with commas.

 

36 minutes ago, Voltak said:

Once it is established that uber builds with uber IO combinations cannot complete a challenge without support, then the whole claim that the game is broken due to IO sets being too powerful vs content is dead and defeated

Firstly, your not proving anything with a simple anecdote. Secondly, you're attempting to push a solution for a problem you generated. That hardly addresses the points of the whole discussion. Thirdly, you dodged my question. I'll ask it rephrased:

 

Could you accomplish that mission if your melees did not have self-capped IO builds?

[Voltak]

No , your gear is what you put ON

The only thing you put on in CoX are your enhancements

You put those on and you take those off. 

When you put those on, your character transforms potentially into a much greater powerhouse

When you take that gear off, your character is gimped. 
That's a fact 

That's gear

Powers are increased or modified by your gear , being your Enhancements or bonuses etc. 

That's gear

Your powers , defenses, offenses are enhanced by your gear and so on 

______________________________________

I have no interest in changing the subject matter on to grammar. 

Stick to debating the subject matter or walk away. 

__________________________________________________

It is not one anecdote 

It is facts 

This has been happening since before IOs 

IT is happening during IOs and will continue to happen after IOs

The facts are that 

1.  There is content already in the game that make builds with great IO bonuses still needing plenty of help to be able to successfully beat challenges 

2.  The evidence is irrefutable that without the support, those IOs were not even close to making those characters represent anything close to breaking the game or be overpowered vs the game content, as long as the content is challenging enough 

3.  You are changing the subject matter , and I am not dodging anything  --> 
The fact is that those builds were not nearly enough to accomplish the mission successfully , they needed the support to do it. 
Why is this crucial ?   
Because the sentiment being expressed is that builds, those builds capped, they

A).  overmatch the game or
B) steam roll over the game content without much of a challenge
C) or it is being expressed that there is no content to match those powerhouses 

The evidence refutes those claims 
The game content can render those builds insufficient to succeed vs those challenges 
What was crucial and what was overpowering the challenges were the support sets/characters 

________________________________________________________

Even up to now, support characters can buff players far beyond what any combination of IOs can 

IOs have not and are not even close to negating that fact 

____________________________________________________
Additional facts --

Yes, many players decide to do easier content relative to their builds 

Thus I advocate adding new challenging content and driving those players to the new or more challenging and already existing content
How you drive those players?  That's totally another subject matter entirely 
_____________________________________


I created no problem 

IOs did not create a problem, similar to the fact that gear in other games do not break the game

Content is added to challenge new progression

It is the logical and factual course in any game in which gear is an integral part of progression and challenges. 

The nerfs to the gear is not the way to go

Edited April 1, 2021 by Voltak

[BrandX]

I'm curious.  Are the people saying this, also running high difficulty Incarnate content solo?

[Leogunner]

21 minutes ago, Voltak said:

No , your gear is what you put ON

What do you do with a toggle power?

 

22 minutes ago, Voltak said:

When you take that gear off, your character is gimped. 

What happens when you turn off your toggle armor?

 

23 minutes ago, Voltak said:

It is not one anecdote 

It is facts 

an·ec·dote | \ ˈa-nik-ˌdōt  \

plural anecdotes also anecdota\ ˌa-nik-ˈdō-tə  \

Definition of anecdote

: a usually short narrative of an interesting, amusing, or biographical incident

 

You didn't even give us a video, let alone a screenshot.  For all we know, you made that story up.

 

I'm not requesting you give us video or proof, just saying it *IS* an anecdote and to offer it up as fact (a fact of what would yet to be determined) means it can be dismissed by a counter-fact just as substantial (in this case, another anecdote).

 

28 minutes ago, Voltak said:

1.  There is content already in the game that make builds with great IO bonuses still needing plenty of help to be able to successfully beat challenges 

2.  The evidence is irrefutable that without the support, those IOs were not even close to making those characters represent anything close to breaking the game or be overpowered vs the game content, as long as the content is challenging enough 

3.  You are changing the subject matter , and I am not dodging anything  --> 
The fact is that those builds were not nearly enough to accomplish the mission successfully , they needed the support to do it. 
Why is this crucial ?   
Because the sentiment being expressed is that builds, those builds capped, they

A).  overmatch the game or
B) steam roll over the game content without much of a challenge
C) or it is being expressed that there is no content to match those powerhouses 

The evidence refutes those claims 
The game content can render those builds insufficient to succeed vs those challenges 
What was crucial and what was overpowering the challenges were the support sets/characters 

 

Your point can be self-defeating though.

 

You're claiming that the support builds were indispensable here.  So what role does the capped IO defense play?  Vengeance and some Maneuvers buffs can get you a lot of defense itself.  We even have rez and self-rez powers, that you proport to have used, in this so-called "hardcore AE mission".  So if this support plays such a key role in the hardest of content you can face while IO def likely only provided a minor boon in the situations armor wasn't fully up, why are you staunchly arguing for the status quo?

 

Or was the IO def pivotal in everyone's' survival and the support just made it possible to pull through?  If IO def had more diminishing returns, wouldn't that just mean more usage of unorthodox tactics like you describe and some encounters would just be super-hardcore?  Then the high-end content would just lean toward the tactics you had to use in your story.  IMO, that sounds far more entertaining than the majority of the content being steamrolled...and in the circumstances there are people with weaker builds, we have a notoriety system that can go to -1lvl.

[Leogunner]

3 minutes ago, BrandX said:

I'm curious.  Are the people saying this, also running high difficulty Incarnate content solo?

The game starts getting pretty repetitive around level 40ish.  Teaming in that range is more repetitive.

 

One can achieve a solid difficulty by just keeping a moderate build, not maxed without incarnates (adjust the notoriety to the enemy faction).  Basically, nerfing yourself (what everyone repeatedly suggests)...the game gets boring so I'd end up rolling a new character instead.

[GM Aurarius]

While we all feel strongly about the game and changes we want to see, please remember to be kind and treat each other with respect.

[Voltak]

Gear = enhancements

Traditionally, if you did not know, gear enhance or modify your selected powers/abilities.

A toggle, say like Leadership/Tactics, is a power, not a piece of gear.

Gear/enhancements is what you place or have on  (wear  in other games)  in the slots

Toggling on Tactics just toggle the tactics to activate and function. 
The IOs, they enhance the toggle or modify and so on

The combination of IOs and their bonuses, especially when all of them are
combined, that enhances your character significantly, and the character could become very potent.

They can enhance all your powers.

Your powers get enhanced by your gear/ IOs.

If I had to explain this…. I am surprised

__________________________________________________________________

What I narrate and state is used to demonstrate the FACT, that there is actually in the game challenges to any build with IOs.

There is challenge in AE and outside of AE for anyone trying to solo on difficulty rating +4 x 8

Yes, even outside of AE, you can find challenges to builds like for example, black knights in Night Ward, the Dominators with
perma domination will find those critters will render your perma domination only half as helpful because they are extremely difficult to hold. 
The only thing perma dom will help you 100% vs them is in giving increased dmg, the other part of domination.  

Same thing in an ITF, holding those critters are a bit of a challenge.

Builds that rely on defense to survive , they also face a challenge with Devouring Earth… once those little things hit the ground, they will hit ANYTHING any time.  

There are more things to list

These are facts.

In AE you can find extremely difficult missions that are extremely difficult for anyone to solo at +4 x 8, maybe just impossible.

Does this content get avoided by a vast amount of players?  Probably so.

The DEVs can certainly present or introduce more challenges to players in the form of content.

They can be a challenge to builds complete with IOs and any kind of set bonuses.
___________________________________________________________________________________


There is absolutely no need to nerf any bonuses nor sets nor the IOs.

There is a need or a want for new challenges and a need to direct or lead players to those higher challenges.

______________________________________________________________________________


The answer that settles decisively the question about wether IOs are breaking game content or not , PRESENT game content, can be answered. 
The answer is NO.

That is why I said that what matters in the example earlier is that the melee could NOT
survive or could complete the AE mission alone , and far away from soloing the missions.

That is what ultimately and decisively matters, that they alone and the uber builds could not succeed alone.

They needed the support. 


A team with full support will be an even easier endeavor.

The right support can make anyone a tanker while at the same time buffing them to the point of making decisive damage to succeed.

Support can and will always be able to buff anyone far more than any combination of IOs can do to your build.