KD to KB IOs cancel each other out?

[SuperPlyx]

So I had an extra slot on my Blaster in Bonfire so tossed in a Overwhelming Force: Knockback to Knockdown.

Now this power already had a Sudden Acceleration: Knockback to Knockdown slotted in it. 

 

My thinking was if both were slotted it would mean 2 chances to knockdown, or that the ones the first IO didn't knockdown the second one would.

However, from my limited testing it appears to cancel each other out. It is a significant reduction of knockdown. Have almost no knockdown at all with both slotted.

[UltraAlt]

It isn't a proc. The effect is always happening.

 

sudden acceleration - "Converts any Knockback this power deals into Knockdown. Some powers may have their chance to Knockdown reduced when this enhancement is slotted"

 

I don't know about the effects of slotting the overwhelming force and sudden acceleration together. I have never done that.

 

My understanding is Knockdown is simply Knockback with knockback distance reduced to zero.

 

So you should be able to go into the manage screen and use the Show detailed info to look at the power and see what it is showing as the knockback distance on the power in question.

Edited May 25, 2021 by UltraAlt

[UltraAlt]

had to dig for the other enhancement

 

Overwhelming Force - Damage/Chance for Knockdown/Knockdown to Knockback.

"Provides a 20% chance to do knockdown on targets, enhances damage by X%, and converts any Knockback on this power to Knockdown. Some powers may have their chance to Knockdown reduced when this enhancement is slotted. This enhancement also has a penchant for the dramatic"

 

Thanks for having me look at this. I didn't realize it was "chance for knockdown". It means I can put it in powers to cause them to have a chance to knockdown even if they can't-slot/don't-do knockback. So this would be good in a damage field or AoE if it can be slotted in them.

 

[SuperPlyx]

Yes, the knockdown is what I was trying to get more of,lol

 

 It's a great way to mitigate some damage if you get surrounded by mobs,, drop Bonfire on your self. However it never gets all of them to knockdown, if your lucky you get half of them to knockdown. Why I was hoping adding Overwhelming would improve those odds.

The fact that it also carries the "chance to knockdown" would seem to help that.

 

Which is why it seems strange that instead I got virtually no knockdown at all. It went from half of the mobs to none or one

Edited May 25, 2021 by SuperPlyx

[Luminara]

I recall skimming through a rather lengthy discussion of KB to KD, with an emphasis on Bonfire's interaction, last year, though I can't name the thread or where it was here (i do remember it being here, because this is the only Co* group i bother with).  If memory serves, Bonfire doesn't play well with one of those IOs, going from guaranteed KB to unreliable KD.  I don't remember which IO caused that, but given the wording of the description for Overwhelming Force, and my personal experience with it (operates as described in some powers, complete waste of a slot in others), I'd guess that it's that one.

[LQT]

20 hours ago, SuperPlyx said:

So I had an extra slot on my Blaster in Bonfire so tossed in a Overwhelming Force: Knockback to Knockdown.

Now this power already had a Sudden Acceleration: Knockback to Knockdown slotted in it. 

 

My thinking was if both were slotted it would mean 2 chances to knockdown, or that the ones the first IO didn't knockdown the second one would.

However, from my limited testing it appears to cancel each other out. It is a significant reduction of knockdown. Have almost no knockdown at all with both slotted.

This isn't a bug, it's the OF proc overlapping with the SA modifier to KB.

 

KD is magnitude 0.67 KB. Slotting SA or OF into Bonfire [and any other KD power] will change every tick of KB into KD by changing whatever mag is in play from IOs to mag 0.67.

The problem you are encountering is that OF has a proc in addition to converting KB>KD for non KB powers you might want a KD in like pbaoes for example when you already used an Avalanche IO. In the case of powers that already with a KB component [Bonfire, Nova, Dawn Strike, Quasar, etc] this 0.67 mag proc will now and again stack with the mag 0.67 KD the power now uses. This becomes KB again due to the KB mechanic mag being greater than 1.00.

As for slotting Bonfire it can easily work with just an OF or SA KB>KD IO as it's used for soft CC and not damage in the first place. If you do have the spare slot and really want to use it on Bonfire put a RecRed in there for more regular use but slotting both OF and SA as you are now will just negate some KD ticks because of how KD can stack.

[SuperPlyx]

7 hours ago, LQT said:

This becomes KB again due to the KB mechanic

There is no KnockBack ....which I should have mentioned before but didn't think of it.

 

The mobs, stand in Bonfire taking damage, but they do not fall down (KnockDown) or go flying backwards (KnockBack) they just stand there.

 

This would seem to indicate the IOs are working to some degree, since the power is no longer doing KnockBack.

But why it is no longer doing KnockDown is the question.

[srmalloy]

16 hours ago, SuperPlyx said:

But why it is no longer doing KnockDown is the question.

I seem to recall that the KB->KD effect is managed by applying a multiplyer of .001 to the knockback magnitude, bringing most reasonable knockback values under 1, which makes them knockdown. If both IOs applied their multipliers, then multiplying the magnitude by .00001 might hit rounding that converts it to zero, removing the knockdown.