Mastermind Attack powers - Please take a look at them - The endurance is painful

[DreadShinobi]

I'd rather they just make it so all MM primary powerset attacks dealt -res as the demon summoning whip attacks do. The whip attacks deal only -9.38% res debuff and last 5 seconds (corruption) and 6 seconds (lash, crack whip). It honestly just makes sense to me that if your pets attack what you're actively attacking with your personal attacks that they will deal more damage. I'd honestly be fine with it even if they had reduced debuff duration on other primaries, but it feels pretty shitty that it is only demon summoning that has attacks that don't feel like garbage.

 

I don't care about the higher endurance cost.

Edited August 5, 2021 by DreadShinobi

[plainguy]

On 8/2/2021 at 2:14 PM, arcane said:

Pets do wipe fairly often at high difficulties, but, against +4x8, any other AT is still going to use way more endurance cleaning up the entire mob than the MM would just recasting their T1 summon a couple of times and re-upgrading. The T2 and T3 most likely don’t need to be resummoned every mob. 
 

As for running tests on SO’s or without using one’s secondary/pools, I have no interest in testing arbitrary conditions I literally never use. I have never slotted a single SO since live.

Of course you don't want to..

Answering backwards here
You never slotted a SO since live ?  Then how do you level up during regular game play ? Unless you Power level your way up and go straight to Inventions. 

You have to slot something ? SO or DO.. 

Well to be fair you don't but that must be some slow game play. 

 

If you are playing at 1/-1 setting then yea your pets will last forever.. 

But again this is about attack power endurance cost. 

 

I already did some simple testing. I was able to kill off the same mob type with just about the same endurance as it takes to summon and upgrade pets with another toon. The only difference was the kill was tons faster..  

 

Again I have countless of petless masterminds.. You cannot level a mastermind without pets and just attacks on a regular build even 6 slotting endurance because  the endurance drain is just too massive. I have attempted it several times. You need to buy P2P and base buffs to limp along.  

The only way is to Power level them to 50 and then work your IO build around endurance and the power sets along with incarnate choices.. EG Kin is a winner here. But some build require cardiac. 

 

Again there is something inherently wrong if the endurance drain is that massive. 

 

 

[plainguy]

On 7/28/2021 at 10:29 AM, Apparition said:

 

 

A Corruptor or Controller not using his or her primary is effectively a second class Defender, and would be better off as Defenders.  A Mastermind not using his or her primary is effectively a second class Corruptor or Controller, and would be better off as Defenders.

 

Plainguy plays petless Masterminds.  That's great.  But he effectively chose to shoot himself in the foot and then tie one arm behind his back, and wants the Mastermind AT balanced to make that equal to the other ATs.  It doesn't work that way.  You have to look at the whole picture to properly balance an AT, and as a whole, the Mastermind is a pet AT.

Negative..  You just pigeon holed me into a stereotype.. 

 

I play many masterminds. As a matter of fact this came from my Robot Trick Arrow Mastermind which is full pet. I was going for a Flying Fortress build, where they would group fly around attacking from the air but in the end it just looks nice outside going from mission to missions. Slightly useless and clunky inside missions especially building hallways which flying doesn't matter and caves in which pets get stuck on the ceiling.

 

Further I understand completely what is involved with creating a petless or semi petless mastermind build. These are my creations for my own fun.. I don't group with anyone, I solo. 
I know the limitations with them per say. 

I usually do not take the personal attacks and work with just supporting my pets.. But as I decided to venture into taking attack powers. I notice that there is no full tilt per say with a mastermind and attacking. Again, I use the num keypad method of controlling my pets. I command them all to attack one target, usually the bosses and I work on the lower con mobs. Again this all depends on the primary an secondary.  I usually open up with AOE attacks. Thus the Photon Grenade attack.  Thus the noticeable endurance drop.

 

Again I don't besmirch someone who decides they want to take every travel power or full medicine line or even both.. To me that is excessive and gimping the character.  In my defense of my petless mastermind builds I can solo 3/8 setting. The average player whom is also probably not even on these forums or looking at mids can't..

[plainguy]

On 7/29/2021 at 1:15 AM, TombTyrant said:

I don't think we should conflate boosting 3 powers with making a petless mastermind viable. No class that skips 5 powers in their primary is likely to be very good.

And see this is where you reading someone else's post now has turned this into a petless mastermind thread..

It has nothing to do with petless masterminds..  Please don't bring it in that direction

[plainguy]

On 7/28/2021 at 9:55 AM, arcane said:

This is not a commentary on the endurance question specifically, but it’s a mistake to frame the pets as only a burden and not a massive asset. You can’t get an accurate look at MM balance without considering the incredible things MM’s get. Such as having effectively more HP than tankers or having insane AV killing single target damage potential.

That is a one time deal those HP you are talking about..  Once the  pets get wiped your bodyguard mode is nothing.

 

Further you need the proper secondary to keep them alive to keep this ability going. Trick Arrow for example has no healing. Others sets like O2 from storm are single target. 

If you ever really played masterminds you know that you get wiped and then sometimes you loose the Tier 1s in a resummon after the pet wipe. 

 

They have the same single target potential as any other Arch Type against AV.. Just other Arch Types are paying less for their powers. 

[arcane]

45 minutes ago, plainguy said:

Of course you don't want to..

Answering backwards here
You never slotted a SO since live ?  Then how do you level up during regular game play ? Unless you Power level your way up and go straight to Inventions. 

You have to slot something ? SO or DO.. 

Well to be fair you don't but that must be some slow game play. 

 

If you are playing at 1/-1 setting then yea your pets will last forever.. 

But again this is about attack power endurance cost. 

 

I already did some simple testing. I was able to kill off the same mob type with just about the same endurance as it takes to summon and upgrade pets with another toon. The only difference was the kill was tons faster..  

 

Again I have countless of petless masterminds.. You cannot level a mastermind without pets and just attacks on a regular build even 6 slotting endurance because  the endurance drain is just too massive. I have attempted it several times. You need to buy P2P and base buffs to limp along.  

The only way is to Power level them to 50 and then work your IO build around endurance and the power sets along with incarnate choices.. EG Kin is a winner here. But some build require cardiac. 

 

Again there is something inherently wrong if the endurance drain is that massive. 

 

 

I don’t slot characters until they’re 50+1, yeah. 
 

But I’m done arguing fwiw. I was merely explaining with DPE why I thought the endurance penalty probably existed. Change or don’t change though, I doubt those attack powers are consequential enough to shift balance meaningfully either way.

 

Have a good one 🙂

[plainguy]

On 7/29/2021 at 10:32 AM, arcane said:

My Poison/Dark’s newest PvE build has 4 primary powers and 4 secondary powers and would like a word with this post 😉 

 

And then there’s Blaster secondaries that only have 3 mandatory powers generally speaking, etc.

 

Also, the OP literally mentioned petless masterminds as part of his motivation so not much conflation is going on, no.

I clearly said my petless mastermind are much better equipped than my other masterminds.

Don't be cheesy and try to spin this into something it isn't
I am picking you apart on you stating you really don't playing masterminds.

I have plenty of Masterminds in both directions. 

I have almost 4 pages of level 50 IO characters. One of those pages is Petless and Semi-Petless masterminds, I think it 2 characters short of a full page. Mind you also some of those masterminds are also full pet as well. I also have about 1 full page of full pet masterminds. I don't know what a full page is number wise.

[plainguy]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

I don’t slot characters until they’re 50+1, yeah. 
 

But I’m done arguing fwiw. I was merely explaining with DPE why I thought the endurance penalty probably existed. Change or don’t change though, I doubt those attack powers are consequential enough to shift balance meaningfully either way.

 

Have a good one 🙂

Ahh..

 

So basically your that player.. 

Which I don't mind, because a team only really needs 3 full defense capped players to just about run anything on what needs 8 people.

But the reality is you are not slotting anything and then having the team carry you. That means your just as good a Tier one pet on a 8/4 setting. 

 

It's funny. I switch builds once to make sure I had the right powers for a lower level task force to help out and then slotting everything with SO lighting fast to help out the team and you are running around with nothing.. 

[TombTyrant]

25 minutes ago, plainguy said:

And see this is where you reading someone else's post now has turned this into a petless mastermind thread..

It has nothing to do with petless masterminds..  Please don't bring it in that direction

 

That's what I said.

[plainguy]

Just now, TombTyrant said:

 

That's what I said.

Oh sorry mis-read..

Thank you

[arcane]

14 minutes ago, plainguy said:

Ahh..

 

So basically your that player.. 

Which I don't mind, because a team only really needs 3 full defense capped players to just about run anything on what needs 8 people.

But the reality is you are not slotting anything and then having the team carry you. That means your just as good a Tier one pet on a 8/4 setting. 

 

It's funny. I switch builds once to make sure I had the right powers for a lower level task force to help out and then slotting everything with SO lighting fast to help out the team and you are running around with nothing.. 

I’m not running around with nothing. What I meant is that I powerlevel my character myself. I don’t switch over from farmer to actually playing the new alt is at least 50+1 and at least mostly slotted IO’s.

[plainguy]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

I’m not running around with nothing. What I meant is that I powerlevel my character myself. I don’t switch over from farmer to actually playing the new alt is at least 50+1 and at least mostly slotted IO’s.

I thought you were done.

[plainguy]

2 minutes ago, arcane said:

I’m not running around with nothing. What I meant is that I powerlevel my character myself. I don’t switch over from farmer to actually playing the new alt is at least 50+1 and at least mostly slotted IO’s.

 

Just now, plainguy said:

I thought you were done.

Oh.. So its okay when you want to bring up my Petless mastermind builds and twist statement in my first post and make it into something I clearly didn't say. If it were true you would have quoted me. 

 

But now you are saying you PL to 50+1 and that give you game play experience, How ? 

So you never really leveled a toon to 50, you just automagically AE your way to 50 and then talk about the trials and tribulation of leveling up a character..  Basically war stories you were really never in. 

 

Maybe if you played a Mastermind to 50 and used the attack powers while leveling you will understand the game play for masterminds attacking and other arch types is different. If you actually played the game you would see the cadence for masterminds is much slower then other arch types.

 

Personally I have no time for you debating or discussing something you never really experience. Further it isn't fair that you come here talking like you have when you haven't. 

[plainguy]

On 8/2/2021 at 2:06 PM, plainguy said:

 

 

Hang your hat on this DPE nonsense all you want. The discord and the chat copied to the these forums from discord say a bit different. Thus the endurance and recharge changes on masterminds. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just posting this as evidence to what I am saying, so I am not saying something that isn't true

 

Mastermind Summons & Henchmen Buffs

• Mastermind Henchmen Summons have had their recharge times reduced:
  • T1 Henchmen: reduced from 60s to 5s (25s in PvP)
  • T2 Henchmen: reduced from 90s to 10s (35s in PvP)
  • T3 Henchmen: reduced from 120s to 15s (50s in PvP)
• These summon powers are no longer affected by recharge buffs or debuffs
• Mastermind Henchmen Summons have had their endurance costs reduced:
  • T1 Henchmen: reduced from 19.5 end to 5.46 end
  • T2 Henchmen: reduced from 19.5 end to 9.62 end
  • T3 Henchmen: reduced from 19.5 end to 13.18 end
• Henchmen upgrade end costs have been reduced from 22.75 to 11.375
• Note: This were some quick low hanging changes to help Masterminds out a bit, we are currently investigating further improvements to Masterminds for the future

[TombTyrant]

I've been playing my Thugs/Storm/Mu a bit the last few days. She's up to level 46 now, from a mix of team and solo play. She's a lot of fun, I am enjoying her. She's using mostly basic IOs, with the exceptions of what I have been able to earn. She has a couple set bonuses going and some of the cooler IO pet bonuses I could swing. I would say compared to an average new player, she is slightly above par compared to what a "new" player would experience.

 

Even though I have slotted reasonably for endurance redux, she is massively greedy. Like no Blaster or Brute I have ever played. She bottoms out all the time. The damage and chaos she brings are super fun. I actually found myself caught up in something I didn't think was possible to experience; Mastermindlock. I was just inputting pet commands so fast I was totally rolling mob to mob, and popping blue pills like Cypher from the Matrix with ED. But holy nuts you guys. I have heard the end crash noise so often you'd think my attack chain had an old school nuke in it.

 

I also notice as I approach the highest levels I see less and less fellow Masterminds around. It could be because it doesn't look like Incarnate stuff does much for the class. It could be because the nature of pets is less optimal for end game content. It could be because people switch to playing something that can actually use their powers. I dunno. When I started the average team had myself and 1 to 2 other MMs. Now I am usually the only one. Could be anecdotal.

 

On live, in the pre-incarnate days, I ran Thugs/Poison to 50. With him, the cost wasn't as much a problem because well, because calling back defeated pets and buffing them cost so much endurance that getting to make a personal attack was a silly luxury most of the time. He basically just hocked debuffs over the backs of the gunners. Apart from looking cool, his guns were just for show. Getting him to 50 was a slower, grindier, much less fun ride. I still enjoyed it, but would not do it again. 

 

So, we have gotten better, from my anecdotal experience. Now it is possible to have an attack chain with a Mastermind. Albeit one that crashes very quickly. For my part, I recommend taking a look at these costs or increasing the damage and effect values. 

 

Thanks for listening.