How bad is hemorrhage on a brute?

[Deuce Spade]

I've been looking around through old threads, and I can't find a place where anyone has looked at hemorrhage's performance with fury-boosted bleeds.  I've read @Frosticus's excellent (though now dated) stalker SM guide, and I wonder if anything similar has been done for brutes?  Basically, I'd like to know if I can save testing time on this.  I suspect some of the hemorrhage hate comes down to how unsatisfying bleed damage is vs. seeing the big hit, but when I've tried it in the past I experienced the same sad trombones.

 

Anyone have solid info on this?

[Deuce Spade]

So after typing all that, I went and grabbed an old lvl 50 SM/Bio brute I'd scavenged the IOs out of and tested vs. Possessed Scientists in PI.  All were level 50, and all my powers were unslotted. 

 

My first attack was hemorrhage, to see what it did without blood frenzy and rage. The initial hit was 35.17, with five ticks of 15.08 after, for a total of 110.57 unenhanced damage.  Once I realized I should turn on a couple of defensive toggles to keep from being mezzed, I finished him off and built fury on another, then charged over and whacked a third with roughly 70% fury and no other enhancement.  The initial hit was 91.92, with five ticks of 45.73 after, for a total of 320.57.

 

I used Mids for comparison, since other powersets have the damage spelled out.  Assuming those numbers are close to correct, we get:

 

Greater Fire Sword, unenhanced 124.2,  298.1 at 70% fury.

 

At this point I see I'm not comparing apples to apples, as hemorrhage has a lower start and higher finish.  I only have vigor alpha and degenerative running on the brute, but there must be some other damage bonus I'm not seeing or a mistake in the Mids info.

 

I decide to pull out another brute with no damage-related incarnates running and compare organically, so my StJ/Inv comes out of retirement for a little PI action.  After convincing one helpful hero that I'm not actually dying, just trying to run a test, I manage to find a group of Possessed Scientist minions and start my experiment.  Crushing Uppercut doesn't land before I generate fury from their attacks, so my baseline is off, but I can get the top number and come back.  Getting to exactly 70% fury proves to be problematic, as I have to rely on their attacks for most of it so there will be minions to swing at when I'm finally ready, but I manage it with one left.  Crushing Uppercut...misses. F*** this.

 

Going back to SM/Bio, I get almost exactly  the same numbers at 70% fury, 92.75, with ticks of 47.27.  Next, I let blood frenzy max out, and try to time hemorrhage to hit at 70% fury.  Exhausting,  I get somewhat close, with an initial hit of 96.7 and six ticks, four of 52.37 and two of 48.71.  Odd.  Does that mean hemorrhage checks current damage bonus with each tick, or maybe with the bonus tick (though all previous were five identical, and previous 5 blood frenzy hemorrhage gave me six identical ticks).

 

My crappy methodology notwithstanding, it seems like we can make a few assumptions about hemorrhage from these results.

 

1. Hemorrhage is fairly endurance efficient on a brute.  The dot takes several seconds to play out, and you could fit in a number of attacks in that time that totaled more damage, but you'd spend a lot more endurance doing it.  Also, one hemorrhage plus those other attacks equals more overall damage in the same timespan, as it seems to be the heaviest hitting single target attack in the set by a slim margin.

 

2.  Spending five stacks of blood frenzy on hemorrhage is a big fat waste, assuming I haven't made a mistake.  If the ticks happen faster with + recharge or something it could make a big difference, but based on this test being accurate, you get way more mileage out of rending flurry, or even just maintaining your +recharge in a single target situation.

 

3.  Hemorrhage seems like it would make a difference on hard targets that take some time to bring down, but may not be worth the extra blood frenzy management.

 

 

 

 

[Outrider_01]

1 hour ago, Deuce Spade said:

 

2.  Spending five stacks of blood frenzy on hemorrhage is a big fat waste, assuming I haven't made a mistake.  If the ticks happen faster with + recharge or something it could make a big difference, but based on this test being accurate, you get way more mileage out of rending flurry, or even just maintaining your +recharge in a single target situation.

 

3.  Hemorrhage seems like it would make a difference on hard targets that take some time to bring down, but may not be worth the extra blood frenzy management.

This.  Hemorrhage is a waste of a power, you can use any other attack and do about the same number of damage.  And its not very useful for bosses or AV, can stack the ticks because of its duration but a waste of blood frenzy for the boost benefits.  At least with Rending Flurry you can hit multiple targets.

 

the tl;dr Hemorrhage needs front loaded damage to be useful.

[Deuce Spade]

8 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

the tl;dr Hemorrhage needs front loaded damage to be useful.

 

I'm not sure even changing a major portion of the damage to be frontloaded would make a difference.  It needs to hit harder.  If the expenditure of blood frenzy was worth something substantial, it might be more attractive.  That looks like where it could see some benefit in a redesign - whether you frontload the damage or keep the dot, make max BF worth spending.

 

Crushing Uppercut seems to get about 25% boost of total damage after bonuses for combo level 3.  Hemorrhage gets 14% bonus if you assume my example was flawed and give it the larger value for the last tick.  Worse, the 14% is *entirely* applied at the end of the dot, so is likely to occur after mob death, even solo.

[Outrider_01]

3 hours ago, Deuce Spade said:

 

I'm not sure even changing a major portion of the damage to be frontloaded would make a difference

With the way SM works, it would at least be an improvement.  You tried a stalker with SM?  Mines only 20 and lacks enough recharge but assassins strike grants blood frenzy, stack with the other attacks,, gets the orange circle and becomes an instant cast with some decent damagd.

 

Edit : I want to throw my phone some days, freaking auto correct or fat thumb if off by a pixel.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Outrider_01

[Deuce Spade]

@Outrider_01 Yeah, I took one to 50 in early 2020, back when hemorrhage was *awesome* on a stalker.  It's still a decent toon, but not as good as before.  I had hoped hemorrhage wasn't borked across ATs, and that brute might make it work, but apparently not.

[Outrider_01]

1 minute ago, Deuce Spade said:

@Outrider_01 Yeah, I took one to 50 in early 2020, back when hemorrhage was *awesome* on a stalker.  It's still a decent toon, but not as good as before.  I had hoped hemorrhage wasn't borked across ATs, and that brute might make it work, but apparently not.

What might make a decent replacement Feral Charge from dominator.  Range teleport attack, single target.  Sounds fun. Need to get that dominator leveld up, almost have it so not much experience.

 

Ultimately SM needs a pass, blood frenzy only works on 2 attacks so the side effects are tiny.  Endurance Reduction is covered with IO slotting and eventually even the hast becomes less useful.  It's not a bad set, just needs some improvement to get over the "meh" of hemorrhage.

[ZorkNemesis]

1 hour ago, Outrider_01 said:

Ultimately SM needs a pass, blood frenzy only works on 2 attacks so the side effects are tiny.  Endurance Reduction is covered with IO slotting and eventually even the hast becomes less useful.  It's not a bad set, just needs some improvement to get over the "meh" of hemorrhage.

 

If you compare the current set to what was originally planned (going off the old Paragon Wiki), Savage already got a fair bit of adjustments.  Shred ate frenzy, with a 20% chance to insta-recharge per stack, and Build Up was instead a self Heal/Regen that also ate your frenzy (Stalkers kept Build Up at the expense of Rending Flurry).  Shred should've kept the consuming effect if you ask me.

 

None of those changes make up for Hemmorage though, that's for sure.