A room for bosses?

[Jiro Ito]

I'm really looking to torture my players and I can't seem to find a room that will allow me to spawn 8-16 unique bosses within the same room.  Does this exist, and if so can you point me to it?  Or is this merely wishful thinking on my part?

[Frozen Burn]

On 4/6/2022 at 1:54 AM, Jiro Ito said:

I'm really looking to torture my players and I can't seem to find a room that will allow me to spawn 8-16 unique bosses within the same room.  Does this exist, and if so can you point me to it?  Or is this merely wishful thinking on my part?

 

Out door maps are your best bet for that many bosses in one area.  For something indoors, you may not get to 16 - that might be asking too much - but I didn't look at every map.  Take a look at Large warehouse maps, Arachnos maps, Unique maps, and such.  I found these: 

• Praetorian Bio Tech Set (Medium, Maps #2-4) = 8 in back room
• Praetorian Power Tech set (Medium, Maps #3-5) = 8 in back room
• Cargo Ship Outdoor (small, map #4) = 18 in middle split between 2 rooms, so I would assume that would be 9 in each middle room.
• Unique / Arachnos / Sub Base = 12 in back

Again, there may be more.  You'll just have to keep looking.  

[Jiro Ito]

Thanks for looking into it.  I guess I could also create a group of just bosses; I just hate it when they get duplicated throughout the mob.  I'll keep checking!

[Frozen Burn]

2 hours ago, Jiro Ito said:

Thanks for looking into it.  I guess I could also create a group of just bosses; I just hate it when they get duplicated throughout the mob.  I'll keep checking!

 

Since you're concerned about duplicate names, I'm guessing this is for an actual story arc and not a farm, correct?  

 

You can create a group of all bosses, have your named boss in the group, and then have another boss in the group named "underboss" or something generic to separate them from the named bosses.  Then create seaparte group with your 2nd named boss + generic bosses, and so forth.  But that means a lot of separate groups for what you want to do.  

 

Also to note:  a group of just Bosses will not yield max XP for the player.  A group needs to have mins, LTs, and bosses in it to give the player max XP.  

[Jiro Ito]

Correct this is for an actual story, not a farm.  XP generated isn't a consideration at all.  I want players to walk into a room similar to Aeon where they fight all of the Vanguard Heroes at once, but I don't want a qty of 3 Incandescents running around, you know?

[Ankylosaur]

Well if you are doing Vanguard - the Vanguard base allows 9 in the back but they will be pretty spread out - not sure anything can accommodate the "at once" part. The Bulge could be a cool outdoor location. The Portal cavern allows 9 in the back - not sure I have ever explored this map - now I have to go see what it looks like. 🙂

[Jiro Ito]

I have, sort of, found a way to do it with Arachnos:  all of the signature villains are available to populate a custom group so I made a custom group of only Arachnos Archvillains, then dropped Recluse in a map with his group as my custom group and BAM, Recluse and all his major lieutenants are there waiting.  BUT, I've got 2 Kalindas, 2 Ghost Widows, etc.  Less than ideal, as it kind of breaks the immersion right?

 

As for hero side, there's no way to even use this wonky mechanic as the Freedom Phalanx, Vindicators, WISDOM, Paragon Heroes groups are not available to pull from to create custom groups.  Same goes for the Rogue Isles Villains.

 

The only way to really make this work like I'm picturing in my head is to create all custom Archvillains, at least 10-12 so they don't duplicate, and my own custom group.  Then Custom Archvillain and his spawn of Other Custom Archvillains can huddle together making Plots™ when Player Hero arrives to save the day.  I guess that's the point of AE, to make our own stories, but I have a sweet arc in my head that I want to torture my friends with and can't make it work.

[GM Impervium]

Sadly, when you have a "group", the AE will pull from that group semi-randomly to fill the player's difficulty needs.

So if someone's playing at +0/x1, then all they're gonna see is 3 minions; LR et al won't spawn. And if you do force it, he'll probably just spawn as an EB with only 1 or 2 minions (and I mean minion-class critters, so it won't be GW and Mako next to him).

FYI, the max mob size is 17, so you'd probably want 18+ critters to make sure you don't get duplicates. For instance, The "Comic Con" farm maps have nearly a HUNDRED different characters to make sure there's no duplication within the mobs!

[Linea]

MOST AE maps approximately spawn by:

{(Minion, Random Index, Linear 8 to 10), (Lt, Random Index, Linear 4 to 6), (Boss, Random Index, Linear 2 to 4), (Optional EB/AV, Random Index, Linear (probably 4)),} Loop until the spawn is full.  Full at +4x8 is usually 16, with 2 to 4 bosses, 4 to 6 lts, and 8 to 10 minions. 

EB/AV only spawn if there are no minions, lts, nor bosses.

If you do not have at least 1 minion, lt, and boss, XP is nerfed.

If you are missing minions, then it runs addtional loops on lts and bosses.  the same for the other subgroups.

It re-random_indexs for each subset itteration

+4x8 all bosses in a group, you'll get effectively 4 linear groups of 4 bosses, but with 4 random starting indexes, so overlaps are effectively guaranteed unless you have a very high number of bosses in the group.  (Random Index, 4 Linear Bosses), (Random Index, 4 Linear Bosses), (Random Index, 4 Linear Bosses), (Random Index, 4 Linear Bosses), done.  This can look like (A,B,C,D), (B,C,D,E),(D,E,F,G),(G,H,I,J); and many other similar variations.  Overlap is neither guaranteed, nor not guaranteed, but it will be related to the odds of a random index roll landing inside your previous linear selection(s).

 

This is why 801 groups typically have 120 or more entities, and those entities are carefully arranged in subsets of 4.  The subsets of 4 ensure the ratio of Debuff, DPS, Support, Tank mobs within the spawn.  It doesn't enfore any exact mob, but it enforces the random statistical ratios.

 

 

[huang3721]

Is there a way to predict the mob's size? Do the number of minion/lieutenants/bosses type in the group affect its composition?

 

I ran a few tests.
My custom enemy group consists of four bosses, four lieutenants, and four minions. I ran my mission several times, and the mob's size and line-up seemed consistent for each test.

 

Team size: Solo
Mob 1 (size 3) Mi=3
Mob 2 (size 2) Mi=1,Lt=1
Mob 3 (size 1) Lt=1

 

Team size: x2
Mob1 (size 5) Mi=4,Lt=1
Mob2 (size 3) Mi=1,Lt=2
Mob3 (size 2) Mi=1,Bo=1

 

Team size: x3
Mob1 (size 8 ) Mi=7,Lt=1
Mob2 (size 7) Mi=5,Lt=2
Mob3 (size 5) Mi=3,Lt=2
Mob4 (size 5) Mi=4,Bo=1

 

Team size: x4
Mob1 (size 11)Mi=10,Lt=1
Mob2 (size 9) Mi=6,Lt=3
Mob3 (size 8 ) Mi=7,Bo=1
Mob4 (size 7) Mi=5,Lt=2

 

Team size: x5
Mob1 (size 15) Mi=14, Lt=1
Mob2 (size 11) Mi=7,Lt=4
Mob3 (size 10) Mi=6, Lt=4
Mob4 (size 10) Mi=8, Lt=1, Bo=1
Mob5 (size 9) Mi=6,Lt=3

 

Team size x6

Mob1 (size18) Mi=17, Lt=1
Mob2 (size 12) Mi=9,Lt=2,Bo=1
Mob3 (size 13) Mi=8, Lt=5
Mob4 (size 11) Mi=8, Lt=3

 

Team size x7

Mob1 (size 20) Mi=18, Lt=2

Mob2 (size 12) Mi=7, Lt=4,Bo=1

Mob3 (size 12) Mi=8, Lt=3,Bo=1

Mob4 (size 11) Mi=5, Lt=5,Bo=1

Mob5 (size 10) Mi=6, Lt=2,Bo=2

 

Team size x8 

Mob1 (size 20) Mi=16,Lt=4

Mob1 (size 13) Mi=6,Lt=6,Bo=1

Mob1 (size 12) Mi=7,Lt=3,Bo=2
Mob2 (size 11) Mi=6,Lt=3,Bo=2
 

18 critters and it was still x6. Probably, x7 and x8 would be messier.

Edited April 14, 2022 by huang3721
8) smiley

[Linea]

For alpha testing of generic group make up, I'd suggest older generic maps that spawn much more consistently than the newer map sets.  Then once you get your group fairly well balanced, transition it to the newer more erratic mapsets, understanding further adjustments will need to be made.  I tend to use smaller old warehouse maps at first, then once I'm fairly confident, I use the troll cave with 99 spawn points, and cruise around checking each spawn.   If 99 +4x8 spawns look good, then you probably have the first pass of your group in good shape.

 

Spawn composition varies by map and spawn point type, and every spawn point will not always be used every time, even if you max out usage.  

10+6+4 is 20.  I'd guess Your map isn't limiting the top end to 16 like most of the older maps, but instead letting it max out randomly.  The only way to know for sure is to spawn it multiple times in test mode.  PLEASE do make sure to spawn it and test it +4x8 at least a few times, using test mode.  Otherwise you could easily and unknowingly create an absolute horror that no team can run.  

 

MOST of the maps, and particularly most of the older maps are very generic, similar, and boringly predictable.  The newest maps are the most diverse and most likely to vary, and even use different mechanics.   I can tell from the screen shot that's one of the newer maps.   But it should be consistent within that map, once you learn it, understanding there is a bit of randomness tossed in.  The fun part here is, the next map in the same set may have completely different spawn points and rules too. 

 

There are a few map sets that I've never been able to use effectively due to map or spawndef odditities, so be aware, there may be a small number of mapsets that just simply won't work for what you want.  This is most common in the newest mapsets.

 

On a similar note, each 801 spawn is intended to test something specific, meet both a maximum and minimum combat time, and some other factors.  This also severely limits that number of maps that are 801 compatible, but THAT particular limitation is as much on MY end as it is the map itself.  Some maps were originally designed with the intent of being extra easy, low triangle count, etc .... these don't work well for 801.  This is most common in the oldest mapsets.

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Linea

[huang3721]

I want to know whatever variables to predict mob size and composition. Does anyone know the source code or the docs from previous devs? If different maps impose different rules, does anyone knows the rules? OP and I can leverage this info to fine-tune the mob. 

 

Changing the difficulty level does not alter mob size. -1, 0, +1, +2, +3, and +4 mobs have identical line-up. 

 

The custom enemy test may be irrelevant to this thread, but my SOP is to only test a mission on +0/x1 and -1/x1. If people want to suffer an elevated difficulty level, I'll let them suffer.

[Jiro Ito]

One thing you can do to affect mob size, instead of setting enemies in your mission, set the map enemy to "empty" and then populate a bunch of boss spawns and set the boss spawn to easy, medium, hard to your preference, and this will affect the number and rank of the spawns.  This multiplies by the team size to set the number of mobs in your group.  This gives you more control over your map.