KB to KD toggle

[thunderforce]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Neither does that mean that a change should be blindly implemented because of the inevitably of others becoming upset.

I'm not "reaching" when I say this is a straw man. You've literally just made it up (just like all the stuff about how the OP, me, just wants a free advantage); I never said anything like that would be a good idea. It's not a useful contribution here to just make stuff up and then argue with that.

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Slotting a proc, which is the solution I've been saying to use, is not the same thing as simply opening a menu and toggling a setting. Toggling a setting that imposes a functional downgrade on a power is the concern I am talking about.

What you actually said was, quote, taking a loss in one aspect of the game, in this case damage, for the sake of another option, is typically regarded as being punishment for using that option, unquote. (Note that I can quote your exact words rather than making something up.)

 

If I slot a Devastation Chance for Hold rather than a damage proc, I am taking a loss in one aspect of the game, in this case damage, for the sake of another option, sometimes being able to hold people I attack. Typically, you say, that is regarded as being punishment.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, thunderforce said:

What you actually said was, quote, taking a loss in one aspect of the game, in this case damage, for the sake of another option, is typically regarded as being punishment for using that option, unquote. (Note that I can quote your exact words rather than making something up.)

Then try actually using my argument. You are comparing a player chosen slotted enhancement that is part of a set and can be slotted as part of the set and so gain the full set bonuses depending on how much of the set is slotted in that power to a toggle. They are not the same. They are not comparable.

 

I'm taking a break.

 

Just to be clear: Yes, I will be back on the forum. Even in this thread.

[thunderforce]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Then try actually using my argument. You are comparing a player chosen slotted enhancement that is part of a set and can be slotted as part of the set and so gain the full set bonuses depending on how much of the set is slotted in that power to a toggle. They are not the same. They are not comparable.

As discussed, you said that quote, taking a loss in one aspect of the game, in this case damage, for the sake of another option, is typically regarded as being punishment for using that option, unquote. I gave an example of doing that very thing, which of course is not seen as punishment, and there are plenty of other obvious examples (carrying purple insps not reds, slotting an attack that takes hold or damage sets with a hold set, not taking Assault when offered a power selection) to the point where it's pretty clear that that is not "typically" regarded as punishment; you were talking nonsense.

 

We should instead consider the specific question of whether having a whole new way to control KB/KD in addition to the existing proc would be seen as "punishment", given that a player could just continue doing whatever they did before and not interact with the new option and its damage penalty. I think the idea that it would needs a bit more substantiation than an obviously false statement about what "typically" happens.

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Just to be clear: Yes, I will be back on the forum. Even in this thread.

Next time please respond to what I write, not obvious straw men.

[PeregrineFalcon]

18 minutes ago, Rudra said:

*sigh* Welcome to the forums where people will debate every suggestion made. I just happen to be a more vocal person than others.

What? How dare you "gatekeep" other people's perfectly awesome suggestions!

 

Oh, wait. I forgot that a GM already posted, in this forum, that we're allowed to disagree with suggestions. Weird, it's almost like everyone has forgotten that, or like the rule doesn't apply to you, or something.

 

😁

[Rudra]

Enhancements, inspirations, and power choices are not system toggles. When you set a system toggle or change a system setting, which is what you are doing when you use the menu, it is with the assumption that the toggle does not carry penalties for its use.

 

Changing a graphics setting? Such as increasing the setting, does not affect what your powers do. Decreasing the setting also does not affect what your powers do. It changes how you perceive the game based on your system's capabilities.

 

Changing your chat bubble? Changes how you and others see your character's chat. It does not impact what your powers do.

 

ANY OTHER menu setting? Does not impact what your powers do. At all.

 

Using Null the Gull? For group travel effects, he grants you an unlisted power preventing those effects from affecting you. I'm not going to get into a Null the Gull debate. Too frustrating to deal with.

 

Using P2W? I guess I'd be fine with the character paying the expected average cost of the procs for all possible powers any character could have with KB that they may want converted for an auto-power to convert all KB from the character to KD. And then pay that price again to change it back. That is going to be insanely expensive though, and I'm willing to bet will never fly.

 

Choosing a power? That changes what your character can do. You want a new pool power that auto-converts all KB to KD for a set amount of time and is the final power available in the pool? Fine. Let's hear the pitch. (Depending on how the pool is set up, I may agree with it, disagree with it, or think you are asking for an easy mode I Win button. Possibly even two of the three.)

 

Slotting enhancements? That changes what your powers can do. And we already have two sets that convert KB to KD. One of which is not unique and has set bonuses that are competitive with every non-superior damage set out there. It just doesn't give the bonuses you apparently want.

 

Using inspirations? That can affect what your powers do. For a brief amount of time. Otherwise, they give a temporary effect you may be lacking such as a Breakfree, Awaken, or even a temporary level up I think in the case of Ultimates. (I don't look for Ultimates, let alone use them, so not sure what they do. I was told they give a temporary boost to your combat level though.)

 

Adding a toggle to the menu to change what your powers can do is not comparable to anything already in the game. Unless you want to put it in P2W for the insane cost or have only Null the Gull be able to effect the requested change. It is something wholly new. Having it impose a damage reduction on powers will be perceived negatively by others because it is a system setting as proposed. Especially if it only affects some powers that do knockback.

 

Your arguments are flawed. And so you are reaching for arguments that are neither comparable or relevant for the sake of trying to find an argument you think will stick. And then you turn around and argue "straw man".

[thunderforce]

That's a lot of words to say that "I'm taking a break" wasn't true.

 

You've backed off a long way from "taking a loss in one aspect of the game, in this case damage, for the sake of another option, is typically regarded as being punishment for using that option", which as discussed was obviously wrong, to the idea that somehow there is something highly specific about it being a menu option which will cause it to be seen as "punishment". You've no actual justification for that, but let's pretend that's a real issue (and furthermore that I suggested it be a menu option, when in fact I suggested it be "somewhere"); have the toggle be something you can put in your power tray.

 

I say "straw man" when you write "Neither does that mean that a change should be blindly implemented because of the inevitably of others becoming upset" as if I had suggested anything of the kind. That's what a "straw man" _is_; when you make up something the other party didn't say and then argue against it.

3 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

that we're allowed to disagree with suggestions

It's allowed, but I don't think it's useful or productive to make up stuff the author of a suggestion didn't actually say and then argue with that.

 

I don't propose to engage with Rudra anymore, since they seem now completely detached from any commentary on the actual proposal.

 

I think I've made three reasonable proposals for how the supposed game mechanical advantage could be overcome and am perfectly happy to discuss those.

Edited August 26, 2022 by thunderforce

[PeregrineFalcon]

4 minutes ago, thunderforce said:

It's allowed, but I don't think it's useful or productive to make up stuff the author of a suggestion didn't actually say and then argue with that.

Agreed. Although I wasn't responding to something that you'd said to Rudra, but something that another post said to him.

 

In any case, I'd personally prefer it if things remained exactly as is, at least in regards to Energy Blast. But that's because I don't believe that knockback is a problem. I agree with the dev that adding a KB>KD toggle would actually cause more problems than it solves.

 

And while I wouldn't have an issue with the devs adding ACC or DAM to a KB>KD IO, I also don't think it's necessary.

 

Personally I'd rather the devs spend their time on fixing "more broken" things, like MM Mercenaries or the Assault Rifle powerset.

[Rudra]

28 minutes ago, thunderforce said:

That's a lot of words to say that "I'm taking a break" wasn't true.

How so? I walked away from the computer, made myself some lunch, ate it, then came back. Sounds like a break to me.

 

29 minutes ago, thunderforce said:

You've backed off a long way from "taking a loss in one aspect of the game, in this case damage, for the sake of another option, is typically regarded as being punishment for using that option",

No, I haven't. That is specifically addressed in that response. You know, where I said "Having it impose a damage reduction on powers will be perceived negatively by others because it is a system setting as proposed. Especially if it only affects some powers that do knockback."

 

 

30 minutes ago, thunderforce said:

I say "straw man" when you write "Neither does that mean that a change should be blindly implemented because of the inevitably of others becoming upset" as if I had suggested anything of the kind.

I never said you did. I was making a point. Not attributing a comment to you.

 

33 minutes ago, thunderforce said:

since they seem now completely detached from any commentary on the actual proposal.

Funny. I was thinking the same thing about your comments.

 

[espectro]

3 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Oh, wait. I forgot that a GM already posted, in this forum, that we're allowed to disagree with suggestions. Weird, it's almost like everyone has forgotten that, or like the rule doesn't apply to you, or something.

okay lemme tell you a story funny guy, maybe you will understand.

 

There is a big underground city full of dwarfs. Each of these dwarfs is like an idea. They gotta get across the bridge to share the idea to smiths who are going to make things. Then a BALROG shows up (Rude-ra, Ruderog) and parks his flaming ass on the bridge and starts smacking the dwarves around and taking up space. Until it's not cool to use the bridge.

Stupid idea. Stupid idea. I don't like this. I don't like this. Over and Over.

And some of the ideas ARE stupid. Mary and Pipin are really stupid but thATs ok because later the stupid idea is needed to talk to the tree men for the war.

 

Anyway the god of the city doesn't tell the Balrog to stop being a balrog. That doesn't mean the balrog is cool. That doesn't mean the god wants a balrog on the bridge. Get it? The balrog just has no common sense. 

 

So Gandalf shows up and kicks the balrog off the bridge, throws him in a pool, and tps him up and pokes him with a taser on the side of the ski slope. People pay money to see that! 

And the worst part is the balrog never learns his lesson. He keeps lying TO THE PEOPLE.

I'm done.

No I'm not.

I'm taking a break.

No I'm not.

 

No one has time for that.

[Rudra]

46 minutes ago, thunderforce said:

when in fact I suggested it be "somewhere"); have the toggle be something you can put in your power tray.

So are you asking for a menu toggle?

 

"Making Null do it has been suggested, and it's a better option - but ideally it would just be a toggle somewhere, so that in-mission people could turn it on and off to keep the team happy. "

 

There are only 2 ways to be able to toggle something while in a mission. Option 1: It is a menu setting. Option 2: It is a toggle power. (Edit: Well 3. Option 3: Have an alternate build that you can pop in and out of with the selectbuild command. Which has been offered as a solution, but keeps getting told NO to.)

 

My arguments are predicated on option 1. Are you now saying you want it to be option 2? If so, what power in what power set would it be?

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Choosing a power? That changes what your character can do. You want a new pool power that auto-converts all KB to KD for a set amount of time and is the final power available in the pool? Fine. Let's hear the pitch. (Depending on how the pool is set up, I may agree with it, disagree with it, or think you are asking for an easy mode I Win button. Possibly even two of the three.)

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Rudra

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, espectro said:

He keeps lying TO THE PEOPLE.

I'm done.

No I'm not.

I'm taking a break.

No I'm not.

 

No one has time for that.

I have never once lied to anyone on the forums. It does not matter how little you think of my comments or how much you hate them. Have I been mistaken? Yes. And when told so, I apologize for it.

 

And how long of a break do I have to take before you think it is a break. I said I was taking a break, not going away on a months long journey.

 

And why should I have to justify to you or anyone else how long I will not be involved in any discussion on these forums?

 

I'd say I was sorry that my time away did not meet your criteria for a break, but then I'd be lying.

[espectro]

On 7/19/2022 at 7:35 PM, Rudra said:

I'm done bashing my brains out just to be ignored. I made my case. You chose to ignore it. What happens, happens.

#1

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

I have never once lied to anyone on the forums.

#2

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Have I been mistaken? Yes. And when told so, I apologize for it.

#3?

 

It's okay man everyone has issues. Maybe reflect? 

 

edit-I was talking to PFALCON btw.

Edited August 27, 2022 by espectro

[Rudra]

You specifically mentioned me and called me a liar. I don't care who you were talking to. I am going to respond to that.

 

6 minutes ago, espectro said:

On 7/19/2022 at 6:35 PM, Rudra said:

I'm done bashing my brains out just to be ignored. I made my case. You chose to ignore it. What happens, happens.

#1

Yes, at that point in time, I was done. Fed up. Decided it was not worth the aggravation. Stopped responding for a while. Then comments were made that I felt needed to be responded to. People are allowed to do that.

 

7 minutes ago, espectro said:

25 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I have never once lied to anyone on the forums.

#2

 

What is your point with that quote? I haven't lied. Changing my stance based on things that happen after does not constitute a lie.

 

8 minutes ago, espectro said:

26 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Have I been mistaken? Yes. And when told so, I apologize for it.

#3?

 

It's okay man everyone has issues. Maybe reflect? 

And what are you saying I am mistaken on?

[espectro]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

You specifically mentioned me and called me a liar. I don't care who you were talking to. I am going to respond to that.

 

Bro, pm me if you got issues. The idea is not to have you talk more. You made at least 2 lies. Minimum. And I did not call you a liar. That's another one.

Get it together. namaste. chill out.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, espectro said:

And I did not call you a liar. That's another one.

Get it together. namaste. chill out.

 

2 hours ago, espectro said:

okay lemme tell you a story funny guy, maybe you will understand.

 

There is a big underground city full of dwarfs. Each of these dwarfs is like an idea. They gotta get across the bridge to share the idea to smiths who are going to make things. Then a BALROG shows up (Rude-ra, Ruderog) and parks his flaming ass on the bridge and starts smacking the dwarves around and taking up space. Until it's not cool to use the bridge.

Stupid idea. Stupid idea. I don't like this. I don't like this. Over and Over.

And some of the ideas ARE stupid. Mary and Pipin are really stupid but thATs ok because later the stupid idea is needed to talk to the tree men for the war.

 

Anyway the god of the city doesn't tell the Balrog to stop being a balrog. That doesn't mean the balrog is cool. That doesn't mean the god wants a balrog on the bridge. Get it? The balrog just has no common sense. 

 

So Gandalf shows up and kicks the balrog off the bridge, throws him in a pool, and tps him up and pokes him with a taser on the side of the ski slope. People pay money to see that! 

And the worst part is the balrog never learns his lesson. He keeps lying TO THE PEOPLE.

I'm done.

No I'm not.

I'm taking a break.

No I'm not.

 

No one has time for that.

What was that about not calling me a liar? If you don't intend to implicate someone in your stories, then don't name drop.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add last line.

[espectro]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

What was that about not calling me a liar?

I did not call you a liar. Fact. 

You have lied, but it's not for me to judge you about that. 

Chopping wood sometimes don't make you a lumberjack. 

Pm me if you wanna talk. Stop derailing this thread.

 

[GM Impervium]

Okay I think we're done here.