KB to KD toggle

[thunderforce]

I know we've been around a few suggestions on this, but I was thinking about it today.

 

Some people hate knockback. Some people, myself included, think it's hilarious fun. People in the first group get annoyed if they team with people in the second group who start having hilarious fun; people in the second group get annoyed because people in the first group want them to buy an IO and slot it, which - unless they've got an unlimited budget for unslotters - means they can't have hilarious fun even when they're off by themselves.

 

The IO isn't a good answer; both groups would be happier if people could go back and forth at will. Making Null do it has been suggested, and it's a better option - but ideally it would just be a toggle somewhere, so that in-mission people could turn it on and off to keep the team happy.

 

Yes, Hypothetically Optimal Man will find some way to toggle it on and off a bunch to gain a 2% advantage in some scenario. I think we can live with that.

 

Yes, jerks would toggle it on unexpectedly in order to be jerks to people in the first group, but there are many ways a jerk can annoy their mission team already and they can't possibly all be eliminated.

[Luminara]

 

 

 

 

The toggle suggestion has been discussed.  Thoroughly.  Repeatedly.  Heatedly.

[Psyonico]

I tell you what: I'll give you a KB->KD toggle IF I get more damage the further an enemy gets knocked back.

[Oklahoman]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

The toggle suggestion has been discussed.  Thoroughly.  Repeatedly.  Heatedly.

 

Yeah, but not since, like, a year ago, right? That horse might be moving again.

[Troo]

[Black Zot]

4 minutes ago, Oklahoman said:

 

Yeah, but not since, like, a year ago, right? That horse might be moving again.

 

Pretty sure that horse won't be allowed a peaceful death until KD becomes the default, like it should have been when the game launched.

[Apparition]

37 minutes ago, Oklahoman said:

 

Yeah, but not since, like, a year ago, right? That horse might be moving again.

 

Plus, we now have numeric evidence that shows that knockback is detrimental to DPS.  Just slotting a KB to KD IO enhancement in powers that do KB removes a minute or more of mission completion time.  People can no longer say that knockback doesn’t actively harm teams.

 

 

Using SOs on Blasters at 0x8:

 

 

 

Using SOs and KB to KD IO enhancements on Blasters at 0x8:

 

[TheZag]

But i like reading about knockback arguments.  Its like the next episode of my show and i havent got to watch in awhile.  Luminara linked a bunch of reruns,  i need fresh content.

[Andreah]

Knockback can be excellent for solo survival. Converting it to Knockdown can be pretty good on teams. Use two builds, have both.

 

I also wish Knockback did damage to the enemies depending on what they hit, so that knocking a foe back into a wall or heavy object damaged them, but knocking them back along the floor much less so.

 

And attacking a foe who is helpless/flailing on the ground ought to be at an accuracy or to-hit advantage.  Although I'm happy they're not abvle to attack my team while they're in this state as it is.

 

I don't want knockback removed. I want it to be made more useful tactically on a team, which is a challenge given the nature of the game.

[Bionic_Flea]

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

 

Plus, we now have numeric evidence that shows that knockback is detrimental to DPS.  Just slotting a KB to KD IO enhancement in powers that do KB removes a minute or more of mission completion time.  People can no longer say that knockback doesn’t actively harm teams.

 

 

Using SOs on Blasters at 0x8:

 

 

 

Using SOs and KB to KD IO enhancements on Blasters at 0x8:

 

 

Those look like GalaxyBrain charts and I believe that was each blaster (with same secondary) solo running the same mission.  If so, that really doesn't convert to evidence that team play is affected the same as the soloist as many in a spawn might either be annihilated by the team or locked in place by some CC.

 

And even if the times carried through exactly the same, it's only a minute or so.  If all you are looking at is time, no one should team with any blaster that isn't fire.  Can we have a toggle that turns all damage into fire blast damage?

[Rudra]

As @Andreah said, you have 2 builds on each character. Your solo build does not have the KB-KD IOs for hilarious fun. Your team build does. Now there is no need for an infinite budget for unslotters. Simple solution, easy fix.

[Andreah]

I'll go a little further. You can swap builds anywhere, not just from a trainer. 

 

To be extra convenient, on your first build make this macro: /macro BUILD2 select_build 2

 

On your second build, make this macro: /macro BUILD1 select_build 1

 

You can swap to the other build by clicking the macro. You can arrange everything on your toolbars identically in each build, except you have this one macro.

 

Boom. You have a toggle to turn knockback on or off.

[Bill Z Bubba]

7 minutes ago, Andreah said:

Boom. You have a toggle to turn knockback on or off.

 

And it only costs you 2 billion inf instead of the 1 billion you spend on a single build.

[JasperStone]

15 minutes ago, Andreah said:

I'll go a little further. You can swap builds anywhere, not just from a trainer. 

 

To be extra convenient, on your first build make this macro: /macro BUILD2 select_build 2

 

On your second build, make this macro: /macro BUILD1 select_build 1

 

You can swap to the other build by clicking the macro. You can arrange everything on your toolbars identically in each build, except you have this one macro.

 

Boom. You have a toggle to turn knockback on or off.

Give up a slot or give up a build?

I typically use all my builds, so ... saying no to this.

 

Unless!

 

Ah!!!

All characters with knockback get an extra build slot.

Excellent decision, make it so.

[Andreah]

5 minutes ago, JasperStone said:

Excellent decision, make it so.

I think the KB->KD set pieces are all those for whom KB is a problem are going to get.

 

These set pieces exist because of years of asking for a solution. I don't think there's going to be a "page 2" for this.

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, JasperStone said:

Give up a slot or give up a build?

I typically use all my builds, so ... saying no to this.

 

Unless!

 

Ah!!!

All characters with knockback get an extra build slot.

Excellent decision, make it so.

How about just make a thread asking for a 3rd build for characters? I would agree with that. As opposed to the OP which I disagree with.

[Andreah]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

How about just make a thread asking for a 3rd build for characters? I would agree with that. As opposed to the OP which I disagree with.

We do get a third build already. When you unlock your Alpha slot, you also unlock your third build.

[JasperStone]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

How about just make a thread asking for a 3rd build for characters? I would agree with that. As opposed to the OP which I disagree with.

We have three build option.

I also agree that a Global toggle is not a good option as some powers are great with KB. I usually leave with it as an emergency "Get away from me" button

 

What if every power had a baked-in option so you can select what it does.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Andreah said:

We do get a third build already. When you unlock your Alpha slot, you also unlock your third build.

I did not know that. Thanks.

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, JasperStone said:

We have three build option.

I also agree that a Global toggle is not a good option as some powers are great with KB. I usually leave with it as an emergency "Get away from me" button

 

What if every power had a baked-in option so you can select what it does.

If every power had a baked-in option so you could select what it did, then you would just delete every power set but 1 for every AT's primary and secondary. Hells, you could just delete the ATs and have 1 primary set and 1 secondary set. A rather extreme option for what looks to be a non-issue given the tools we already have.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to correct I to A.

[Andreah]

1 minute ago, JasperStone said:

We have three build option.

I also agree that a Global toggle is not a good option as some powers are great with KB. I usually leave with it as an emergency "Get away from me" button

 

What if every power had a baked-in option so you can select what it does.

Another, somewhat kludgy, solution is to use unslotters to remove your KB->KD set pieces and put them to the far right of your last enhancement tray, and temporarily put in the damage/etc maximizing enhancements one would prefer to use instead. Unslotters are only 120K each. Carry a few hundred.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Andreah said:

Another, somewhat kludgy, solution is to use unslotters to remove your KB->KD set pieces and put them to the far right of your last enhancement tray, and temporarily put in the damage/etc maximizing enhancements one would prefer to use instead. Unslotters are only 120K each. Carry a few hundred.

 

6 hours ago, thunderforce said:

unless they've got an unlimited budget for unslotters - means they can't have hilarious fun even when they're off by themselves.

The OP opened with not wanting to do that.

[Andreah]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

The OP opened with not wanting to do that.

I think understand the feeling, but it's wrong. Unslotters are cheap. Consider if there were such a on-demand toggle, it would certainly have a cooldown that's fairly long. At most then, the player would use a half dozen unslotters to swap in equivalent. Cheap. This game dumps influence and merits galore for things like this. Use them instead of asking developers to spend their scarce efforts on something that's already been fixed once, even if not fully to one's liking.

 

Or, and this is my last suggestion, volunteer to work on the development team and offer to do all the game changes necessary to make a toggle work. 

 

Teams of volunteer developers often don't rigorously follow a task priority list. Often, the things that get worked on are the ones one of the volunteers is motivated for. Be that developer for the thing you care about. If you don't have the talents and skills, find someone who shares your motivation who does and get them to volunteer. 

 

If the team's management doesn't accept that task at all, then they must feel it's one that's actually harmful to the game in some way. 

[Oklahoman]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

If all you are looking at is time, no one should team with any blaster that isn't fire.

 

I agree, it doesn't help to zoom in on one specific metric then blow that up to something larger than that. Better, with this game right now anyway, to foster an acceptance among the community that knockback is simply part of the game and you may need to chase down flying bad guys that someone else knocked back. In everything I run, there is only 1 badge run (BAF Strong and Pretty) where I specifically ask for one team to not use knockback. I just don't see it as meriting this many threads on the subject.

[Troo]

2 hours ago, Apparition said:

People can no longer say that knockback doesn’t actively harm teams.

 

Immobilizes and Holds could have the same affect on a team's efficiency, couldn't they?