Scrapper Primary DPS List?

[Stormwalker]

33 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Is it possible that BF, SS, AS, .5 sec to .17 sec pause is still better DPS than a clean BF, AS, SS, AS, repeat chain?

 

I was going to say no, just based on estimations in my head, but then I realized I was forgetting to account for the fact that you would theoretically occasionally be triple-stacking Blinding Feint for SS, and at that point I gave up because I can't be bothered to actually do math tonight.

 

EDIT: Thinking about it a little more, I think still no in pure single target.  But when you are getting multiple targets with your Sweeping Strike, maybe.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Stormwalker

[Stormwalker]

On 7/19/2022 at 11:46 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

BF, SS, AS, repeat?

 

BF 1.452 Acast and 12 sec rec

SS 1.452 Acast and 11 sec rec

AS 1.188 Acast and 6 sec rec

 

To get BF down to a 2.64 sec recharge requires 355% total recharge.

256% after enhancement.

186% after hasten

136% after 5 purples

98.5% after 5 LotGs

78.5% after quickness in SR

That is a lotta extra recharge needed.

Mids is showing on my db/nrg scrap with 10 foes in range of entropic aura +35% and BF recharging in 2.87 seconds, still short by .23 seconds. With only 1 enemy in range, EA only buffs 3.5% (again, as per mids) and BF's recharge is at 3.1 sec, a dead space of almost half a second. And yet, that's all I run on my db/nrg.

 

Is it possible that BF, SS, AS, .5 sec to .17 sec pause is still better DPS than a clean BF, AS, SS, AS, repeat chain?

 

So... I was still curious.  And I was having trouble sleeping tongiht due to my psoriatic arthritis acting up.  So... to occupy myself, I put together a DB/SR build in Mids that (using Ageless, which I would probably not be inclined to do in a real build probably, because I'd want to have Barrier for Incarnate content) is capable of actually running BF -> SS -> AS gapless.  It has 285%(!!) global recharge.

 

Mids says this is still slightly worse DPS (183.1443) than BF - > AS -> SS -> AS (187.5271).  Procs might change this, didn't test that.  And I don't know if Mids calculates the stacking damage buff correctly (I didn't bother checking the math, I'm not that bored).

 

Of course, even one additional target in SS's AoE would swing this in favor of BF -> SS -> AS.

 

Here's the build if you want to look at it yourself.  Note that Power Slice, Typhoon's Edge, and Energy Torrent are all present largely as set mules (Power Slice to get me over the ranged softcap, Typhoon's Edge and Energy Torrent for more 20% more global recharge and 30% more global accuracy), though Typhoon's Edge also provides a bit more AoE capability.

 

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.2.17
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Skyfencer (alt): Level 50 Mutation Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Dual Blades
Secondary Power Set: Super Reflexes
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Power Slice -- PlvFst-Acc/Dmg(A), PlvFst-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), PlvFst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(3)
Level 1: Focused Fighting -- RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFrt-Def(5), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(5), RedFrt-EndRdx(7), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(7), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(9)
Level 2: Ablating Strike -- Hct-Dmg(A), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), Hct-Dmg/Rchg(17), Hct-Acc/Rchg(17), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(19), Hct-Dam%(19)
Level 4: Agile -- ShlWal-Def(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(21), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(21), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(23)
Level 6: Focused Senses -- RedFrt-Def(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(23), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(25), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(25), RedFrt-EndRdx(27), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(27)
Level 8: Blinding Feint -- SprCrtStr-Dmg/Rchg(A), SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), SprCrtStr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(29), SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg(31), SprCrtStr-Rchg/+50% Crit(31)
Level 10: Practiced Brawler -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 12: Fly -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(33)
Level 16: Dodge -- ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(A), ShlWal-Def(33), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(33)
Level 18: Hover -- HypSnc-+Special(A), HypSnc-Fly(34)
Level 20: Quickness -- Flight-I(A)
Level 22: Kick -- Acc-I(A)
Level 24: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(34), UnbGrd-ResDam(34), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(36), UnbGrd-Max HP%(36)
Level 26: Sweeping Strike -- SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg(A), SprScrStr-Dmg/Rchg(36), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), SprScrStr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), SprScrStr-Rchg/+Crit(39)
Level 28: Lucky -- RedFrt-Def(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(39), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(39), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(40), RedFrt-EndRdx(40), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(40)
Level 30: Weave -- RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(42), RedFrt-Def(42), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(42), RedFrt-EndRdx(43)
Level 32: Typhoon's Edge -- Arm-Dmg(A), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(43), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), Arm-Acc/Rchg(45), Arm-Dam%(45)
Level 35: Evasion -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(45), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(46), Rct-EndRdx/Rchg(46), Rct-Def/Rchg(46), Rct-ResDam%(48)
Level 38: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 41: Physical Perfection -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(48)
Level 44: Evasive Maneuvers -- Flight-I(A)
Level 47: Energy Torrent -- Rgn-Dmg(A), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(48), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(50), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(50), Rgn-Knock%(50)
Level 49: Elude -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit 
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Heal-I(A)
Level 1: Swift -- Flight-I(A)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 1: Health -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(9), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(11), Prv-Heal/Rchg(11), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(13), Prv-Absorb%(13)
Level 1: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(15)
Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon 
Level 50: Vorpal Core Final Judgement 
Level 50: Reactive Core Flawless Interface 
Level 50: Robotic Drones Radial Superior Ally 
Level 50: Assault Core Embodiment 
Level 50: Freedom Phalanx Reserve 
Level 50: Portal Jockey 
Level 50: The Atlas Medallion 
Level 50: Task Force Commander 
Level 12: Afterburner 
Level 50: Ageless Core Epiphany 
------------

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Edited July 21, 2022 by Stormwalker

[Linea]

Mids is much much better these days on dps numbers, but I would still never trust it completely.

[Deathwish]

On 7/16/2022 at 9:59 AM, Lyrium said:

I could be wrong, but as far as I know, top ST is Energy Melee, top AoE is probably Claws

Ok. So you've been a part of the CoH community for 15 minutes and have never heard of spines. Claws is one of the better single target sets along with DM. But In no way can claws even compete with Spines. Period,

Edited Wednesday at 01:14 AM by Deathwish

[One IV All]

9 minutes ago, Deathwish said:

Ok. So you've been a part of the CoH community for 15 minutes and have never heard of spines. Claws is one of the better single target sets along with DM. But In no way can claws even compete with Spines. Period,

Holy necro Batman!

Edited Wednesday at 01:23 AM by One IV All

[Due Regard]

3 hours ago, One IV All said:

Holy necro Batman!

Wouldn't that be UNHOLY?

[Camel]

5 hours ago, Deathwish said:

Ok. So you've been a part of the CoH community for 15 minutes and have never heard of spines. Claws is one of the better single target sets along with DM. But In no way can claws even compete with Spines. Period,

Claws practically beats out Spines in every category. Spines is literally built to be an AoE machine, yet Claws can outperform it or is marginally worse than Spines. Follow-Up -> Shockwave -> Spin is an endless chain with a proper build. The +50% crit chance proc is also just BEGGING to be put in Follow-Up… it practically activates 90% of the time in that power. Meaning, every single time you enter “AoE” chain mode, your Shockwave and Spin both have a 50% increase to critical hit. And it’s ENDLESS. With proper positioning, it is sickeningly good.

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, Camel said:

Claws practically beats out Spines in every category. 

See also: Battle Axe. Spine's only real niche these days is standing there like a lemon and letting Quills tickle the mob to death... and even that's trounced by Rad Melee's Irradiated Ground.

[Hatchet_Manners]

I don't see many posts about staff in the scrapper forum. Is it really terrible? Considering a scrapper alt... 

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, Hatchet_Manners said:

I don't see many posts about staff in the scrapper forum. Is it really terrible?

Yes.

For Single-target damage it's passable on a Stalker.... and for AoE it actually veers into "decent" on Tankers as Gauntlet drastically buffs all three of its area attacks.
 

Edited Wednesday at 06:31 PM by Maelwys

[Due Regard]

1 hour ago, Hatchet_Manners said:

I don't see many posts about staff in the scrapper forum. Is it really terrible? Considering a scrapper alt... 

All Scrapper Primaries are viable... However, some of them are going to be worse than others, and Staff is near the bottom.

Still perfectly useful at flipping out and killing stuff.

[SomeGuy]

19 hours ago, Deathwish said:

Ok. So you've been a part of the CoH community for 15 minutes and have never heard of spines. Claws is one of the better single target sets along with DM. But In no way can claws even compete with Spines. Period,

 

 

I thought this was sarcasm. Spines isn't close to the best AOE. hahaha Claws dog walks spines in every category. DM isn't good ST DPS. Energy Melee isn't top dog ST DPS (it is good though, really good).

Edited Wednesday at 08:16 PM by SomeGuy

[Stormwalker]

5 hours ago, Due Regard said:

All Scrapper Primaries are viable... However, some of them are going to be worse than others, and Staff is near the bottom.

Still perfectly useful at flipping out and killing stuff.

 

Yep, Staff and Kinetic Melee are two perfect examples of a universal truth:  Every Scrapper set is capable.

 

Some are just more capable than others.

 

I recently solo'd Task Force Commander on my Staff/WP.  Having just checked her temp powers, she doesn't have Envenomed Daggers.  When I buy something like that, I buy a LOT, so if she'd had them, she'd still have them.  Which means I soloed Task Force Commander on a Staff/WP, including all the AV's that entails (Dr. V, Clockwork King, Clamor, Vandal, Countess Crey, Hopkins, and Jurassik), without needing Envenomed Daggers (or any other Temp powers, for that matter).  Doing this does require having at least passable DPS output.  And that was in a build which was not remotely optimized for exemplar play.

 

So, Staff is perfectly capable of demolishing your enemies.  Some other Scrapper sets (Ok, basically every other Scrapper set except KM) will do it faster, but on the flip side... very few of them will look nearly as cool doing it.  The Staff animations are some of my favorite in the game.

Edited Wednesday at 11:58 PM by Stormwalker

[SomeGuy]

Definitely have to agree with @Stormwalker. Staff does look really cool and has great animations. To bad it's like hitting stuff with an cardboard tube that would be better used for making lightsaber noises. But SW talking about solo-ing those TFs with their SF/WP is proof enough you can make every primary viable. yeah, Staff is fricking horrible when you look at the #s and compare it to anything else, but...is it fun? Yeah. Hell, I love DM and it's in a really bad place numerically. I've personally solo-ed every TF/SF in the game (yes, even Apex and Tin Mage...and excluding the villain Reichsman SF for obvious reason) with my DM/BIO.  I will NEVER do LGTF solo ever again.

[Hatchet_Manners]

I tried out staff.

For me, sustained DPS is not a very useful metric to measure powerset usefulness. I understand this is a thread about ST DPS but I would just question the assumed premise that this is a  useful metric for ranking powesets. Fine if you want to use it as a metric for measuring your own build optimization. I like 5s or 10s burst damage more, and quality of AoE attacks that can be integrated into the ST rotation. Sure Staff might also lack in burst damage but it seems like it would be fine for me and adds some interesting utility.

 

However I can't stand the animation for the pbaoe attack, the sounds are way to hollow and weak like a cardboard tube as SomeGuy described it, and I don't like seeing a bunch of brawl icons in my power tray. These "trivial" things make up the overall feel of the set and I don't like it. Gonna try something else. Maybe I lost my scrapper passion from the old days 2004-2007 when I played an ma/sr. I still remember ol' twinkle toes storm kick and SR at the bottom of the pile with regen on top. 

[Stormwalker]

11 hours ago, Hatchet_Manners said:

I tried out staff.

For me, sustained DPS is not a very useful metric to measure powerset usefulness. I understand this is a thread about ST DPS but I would just question the assumed premise that this is a  useful metric for ranking powesets. Fine if you want to use it as a metric for measuring your own build optimization. I like 5s or 10s burst damage more, and quality of AoE attacks that can be integrated into the ST rotation. Sure Staff might also lack in burst damage but it seems like it would be fine for me and adds some interesting utility.

 

However I can't stand the animation for the pbaoe attack, the sounds are way to hollow and weak like a cardboard tube as SomeGuy described it, and I don't like seeing a bunch of brawl icons in my power tray. These "trivial" things make up the overall feel of the set and I don't like it. Gonna try something else. Maybe I lost my scrapper passion from the old days 2004-2007 when I played an ma/sr. I still remember ol' twinkle toes storm kick and SR at the bottom of the pile with regen on top. 

Just a heads-up on that: there are mods available that change the sounds for many power sets.  There is at least one that I know of for staff which states that it makes the sounds more "solid".  Haven't gotten around to testing it myself yet, though.

[One IV All]

3 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

Just a heads-up on that: there are mods available that change the sounds for many power sets.  There is at least one that I know of for staff which states that it makes the sounds more "solid".  Haven't gotten around to testing it myself yet, though.

I have, and it’s awesome. Great sound effects.

[SomeGuy]

23 hours ago, Hatchet_Manners said:

I tried out staff.

For me, sustained DPS is not a very useful metric to measure powerset usefulness.

 

 

I'm going to assume the OVERALL contribution from a set is what you feel is. Like, Kinetic Melee applies a slow with every attack it does. Or Ice Mele has Ice Patch?

[Stormwalker]

On 2/20/2025 at 10:08 AM, Hatchet_Manners said:

However I can't stand the animation for the pbaoe attack.

 

I missed this in your original comment initially.

 

Yeah, if you don't like Eye of the Storm, that will probably kill Staff for you, because Eye of the Storm is kind of crucial to the set.

 

Of course, I have a similar problem with Kinetic Melee - I hate Concentrated Strike's animation and I refuse to take it.  Somehow, my KM/WP manages to get by without it, but I'm sure it's holding me back (on an already weak set) since I lose out on the Concetrated Strike crit = refresh Power Siphon cooldown mechanic.

 

(Incidentally, one of my favorite parts of playing Staff is hitting EotS after getting a Critical Strikes proc and "critting the neighborhood".  And I actually really like EotS's animation.  But it just goes to show you that what's great for one person isn't necessarily great for everyone).