Make Mastermind Attacks Not a Liability

[Lost Deep]

The current Beta Mastermind attack changes are, by and large, good. At least, they're a start in the right direction. But they don't actually solve the core issue with them, and that is that Mastermind attacks are often a liability to use in a fight because they cost too much to offer too little.

 

By and large, most Mastermind Attacks fall into this kind of setup:
A light attack: 6.5 Endurance
A medium attack: 10.66 Endurance

A basic AoE attack: 18.98 Endurance

 

Details vary, the exact damage to endurance ratio varies, but these are the core values. First off, these are high values. Here, at a glace, is the general costs for blasters:

 

A light attack: 5.2 Endurance

A medium attack: 8.528 Endurance

A basic AoE attack: 15.184 Endurance

 

The Blaster versions also do more damage, as they should, but the truth of the matter is that Mastermind just spends more End for comparable effects.

 

Now, I'm not going to claim Mastermind attacks should get a damage buff. They shouldn't. When you want to do damage as a Mastermind, what you do is you tell all your Henchmen to attack that target. Your personal contribution to damage is, even at the best of times, negligible much after level 20.

Well, then, what are they for?

They're buttons to hit during combat. They're little things to do so that you don't get bored herding the henchmen. The issue is that if they're used this way, basically just pushing one whenever you feel like it because you want to contribute to the fight, they can be dangerous.

 

Masterminds want to spend Endurance on a lot of things. Assault, Maneuvers, and Tactics are no-brainers: they're basically toggles that give your henchmen free stats. Tough and Weave are VERY common, as they're the main way that Masterminds can build for survivability. That's a baseline of five toggles, not counting potential costs from the secondary set. Even with conscientious endurance slotting that adds up.

 

Secondary sets are harder to factor in. Some are hugely click-hungry, and if you use it you're not liable to have a lot of spare time to use your Mastermind attacks in any case. Some are End-hungry, they have support toggles and debuffs that need to be applied regularly. A select, blessed, cursed few are both. (I love you Poison, but you're a bit needy.) This all makes using Mastermind attacks hard; not only does not every set give the player time for them, but a number of sets use a lot of endurance, making other endurance expenditures dangerous.

 

Yes, you could take the Mastermind Attacks, but they take a lot of Endurance and give little back. What are your alternatives? Power pool ranged attacks? Not really.

Power Pool ranged attacks have a endurance efficiency around the same rate as mastermind attacks. They're expensive, and they do damage, and precious little outside of damage. That said, it rather puts things in perspective: the Mastermind ranged attacks might as well be pool powers given their numbers.

 

So, what do you take?

 

Well, I personally take Boxing, Kick, and Cross Punch.

Boxing: 4.42 Endurance

Kick: 4.94 Endurance

Cross Punch: 10.66 Endurance.

 

You can claim that they're only good damage if you take all three... and you're right. You can claim that they're melee powers when Mastermind is built to be ranged archetype, and you're right. But you're going to be in the Fighting pool anyway and you need to take at least one of Boxing or Kick for access to Tough and Weave. Why not take the other two for some buttons to push in combat?

 

Not appealing to you? How about Experimental Injection from experimentation to buff one Henchman for a while? 10.4 endurance to give someone a large amount of Mez immunity and bonus regen and recovery.

Spirit Ward from Sorcery: a fairly-priced toggle to add absorption over time to one target. Great for whatever minion is in melee like an idiot!

Weaken Resolve from Willpower: a mere 7.58 endurance for a 7.5% penalty to defense and resist for 15 seconds, and a small accuracy penalty as a bonus!

Air Superiority from Flight: 6.5 endurance for a 100% knockdown. Occasionally useful for a little extra crowd control!

Pacfiy from Presence: To get the enemy to stop beating on you personally!
Provoke from Presence: A taunt to get enemies to come into your minion's murder range!

Misdirection from Concealment: if you're in concealment for some reason, you might as well pick it up for the placate and 15% resistance penalty!

Aid Other from Medicine: I mean... hey, the animation time is too long and it's interruptable, but if you have the time and you're cofident on your henchmens' control over the situation, why not?

Of course, these are not perfect. They have notable limitations, long cooldowns, the like, and their Endurance costs are pretty comparable to the very Mastermind Attacks I'm deriding... but they don't just do a pitiful amount of damage and burn your endurance. They're utility powers, some quite strong, and their nature means they generally give more per pop than attacks do... especially for Masterminds, who don't need more damage but always want team utility! This is a serious case where the power pool limit might be a major consideration for your build.

 

But, the question stands: why take a Mastermind attack when I could have any of these?

 

Well... there some Mastermind attacks where that's already answered.

Beast Mastery

Call Swarm: 5.46 Endurance

Call Hawk: 9.62 Endurance

Call Ravens: 16.9 Endurance

 

They cost less End, but they also do less damage... but according to Mid's at least the damage per end is better than baseline. But that isn't important: these powers aren't about doing damage as we said. What are these powers really about?

Pack Mentality.

Each of those powers have a chance to give a stack of Pack Mentality. A stack of Pack Mentality gives your henchmen a +2% damage boost... up to a max of 20%. It'll take some doing, and likely creative Endurance management, but a +20% bonus to your henchman damage is worth fighting for.

 

Demon Summoning

The base prices are the same, with the exception of Crack Whip at 17.94 Endurance. As it's a cone, not a ranged blast, I think that's reasonable.

But, more importantly, each of these attacks gives a 9.375 penalty to damage resistance. Yes, just for using all three of Demon summoning Attacks, your target suffers about 28% more damage from all sources. No muss, no fuss. THAT is worth spending the Endurance it asks for.

 

So, then, moving forward, how do we make Mastermind attacks worth using? We don't want to increase the damage output, that's not their job. To me, there's really only two ways forward:
1. Cut their end costs, sharply. Down to the standard. Why do they cost more in the first place? Even then there isn't a lot of reason to take more than one.
2. Give them major utility. There's already basis for this in Beast Mastery and Demon Summoning, where the utility is the entire reason they're taken.

 

The current Beta is a step in this direction, and with Ninjas and Necromancy they seem to be in the right neighborhood; they're more likely to need exact number tweaks than major changes. Mercenaries's bonus, however, is too small: three attacks for a total of +10% damage is pitiful. Demon Summoning gets almost triple that amount with less limitations.

 

Robotics on the other hand is... odd. A 200% Regen penality is a sizable amount, but the number of enemies in the game that have a notable amount of regen is small, limited to archvillains, giant monsters, and other parts of high-end and endgame gameplay. I don't even know if there are any enemies with 600% regen that would call for using all three abilities. Given that these are Robotics's basic attacks, intended to be the most used at low levels, having them ultra-specialize in endgame and high-end combat is weird.

 

That's my thoughts on the matter. It's good this is being looked at, it's been a thing for as long as Masterminds have been a thing, but this isn't just a matter of a few powers having slightly low numbers. There's serious gameplay conventions that need to be considered here, and I hope that I can spark some discussion on them and how to handle them.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Lost Deep
Grammar

[kelika2]

Fiery Aura people are adapting currently to the changes coming  and its a net gain if they adopt Phoenix Raising and some +rech with insp use in firefarms.  Having a 10%~ fire def gap allows you to slowly and reliably trickle down health for a bigger blast.  Luck up to slow the damage while its recharging

 

You need to adapt as well.

 

Even on live I take personal attacks because I know that Tactics is not needed for 99% of the game, Maneuvers is only worthy if you can stack it with something and Assault at the end of the day is adding a DO enhancements worth of damage will not make or break a fight.  And the fighting pool is generally for late game stuff because there is few things at lower/mid levels that is genuinely a threat.  Did you know that you can have a few pets on aggressive and some on defensive?  Say my Bruiser gets attacked by being aggressive, the other pets will join in and i still have 5/6 the strength of bodyguard

 

So I personally do not know why you are having endurance complaints.  Maybe its because I use IOs.  5/6 Decimation no proc and 1 Devastation: acc/dmg/rech/end in single targets and 5/6 posi blast no proc and annihilation: acc/dmg/rech/end.  Hell, I might even start buying epics post-patch

All down to 4.1, 6.5 and 11.4 end costs

 

Change is scary, we are set in our ways and just dont wanna.  But utilizing my phone to take a pic pre-respec and counting on RPGgrowth dopamines from min/maxing will power me through all the respecs im going to do

[Lost Deep]

7 hours ago, kelika2 said:

Fiery Aura people are adapting currently to the changes coming  and its a net gain if they adopt Phoenix Raising and some +rech with insp use in firefarms.  Having a 10%~ fire def gap allows you to slowly and reliably trickle down health for a bigger blast.  Luck up to slow the damage while its recharging

 

You need to adapt as well.

 

Even on live I take personal attacks because I know that Tactics is not needed for 99% of the game, Maneuvers is only worthy if you can stack it with something and Assault at the end of the day is adding a DO enhancements worth of damage will not make or break a fight.  And the fighting pool is generally for late game stuff because there is few things at lower/mid levels that is genuinely a threat.  Did you know that you can have a few pets on aggressive and some on defensive?  Say my Bruiser gets attacked by being aggressive, the other pets will join in and i still have 5/6 the strength of bodyguard

 

So I personally do not know why you are having endurance complaints.  Maybe its because I use IOs.  5/6 Decimation no proc and 1 Devastation: acc/dmg/rech/end in single targets and 5/6 posi blast no proc and annihilation: acc/dmg/rech/end.  Hell, I might even start buying epics post-patch

All down to 4.1, 6.5 and 11.4 end costs

 

Change is scary, we are set in our ways and just dont wanna.  But utilizing my phone to take a pic pre-respec and counting on RPGgrowth dopamines from min/maxing will power me through all the respecs im going to do

 

My angle is that I am adapting: I'm adapting to not use them because I see no reason to. That isn't necessarily good for build variety, these are notable parts of the powersets but there's so little reason to take them. This isn't just about endurance economy, it's about the actual ideas behind why they are designed this way. I'm arguing that making these powers baseline better, by adding utility, not damage, will improve the quality and breadth of builds for the sets in question. It will also make them better appreciated by beginners and mid-end players. Why not put forth the effort for that? There's only things to gain.

[kelika2]

23 minutes ago, Lost Deep said:

 

My angle is that I am adapting: I'm adapting to not use them because I see no reason to. That isn't necessarily good for build variety, these are notable parts of the powersets but there's so little reason to take them. This isn't just about endurance economy, it's about the actual ideas behind why they are designed this way. I'm arguing that making these powers baseline better, by adding utility, not damage, will improve the quality and breadth of builds for the sets in question. It will also make them better appreciated by beginners and mid-end players. Why not put forth the effort for that? There's only things to gain.

Well then go check out the test server

mercs, necro, ninja and bots attacks are getting buffed

[Lost Deep]

16 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Well then go check out the test server

mercs, necro, ninja and bots attacks are getting buffed

 

I DID! I discussed these changes in the original post! My angle is that while Ninja and Necromancer are the right direction and likely only need refinements, the Mercenaries attacks offer very little in comparison to the existing stand-outs of Beast Mastery and Demon Summoning! In addition, the -regen on the robotics attacks is really only notable in high-end and late-game play which is a strange choice on attacks that that should be biased toward the start of the game!

[Rudra]

Why should MM pet effects be biased to the start of the game when enemies are weakest?

[Lost Deep]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Why should MM pet effects be biased to the start of the game when enemies are weakest?

 

This is specifically about the attacks in the pet sets, Such as Burst in Mercenaries, Dark Blast in Necromancy, etc, not the effects of the pets themselves.

[Rudra]

That is what I was asking about.

 

33 minutes ago, Lost Deep said:

In addition, the -regen on the robotics attacks is really only notable in high-end and late-game play which is a strange choice on attacks that that should be biased toward the start of the game!

Why should that be biased to the start of the game when enemies are weakest rather than mid to late game where it becomes more important?

[Lost Deep]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

That is what I was asking about.

 

Why should that be biased to the start of the game when enemies are weakest rather than mid to late game where it becomes more important?

The start of the game is when henchmen can do the least. As you go on, henchmen do more (especially damage), you have more from your secondary, and even unlock ancillary pools. All these, for the reasons I went over in the original post, make the basic attacks less relevant in a great hurry. And -Regen isn't for mid-game: it's for Archvillains, Giant Monsters, and other high-end things. It's effectively nothing against the vast majority of the game. When it does matter, it's felt: -200% regen is nothing to sneeze at. But adding something that is admittedly situational to a basic attack like that puts it in an odd situation. When you'd normally use these attacks the most, low- to mid-level, you're never actually going to benefit from the -regen. When you're up against something with notable regeneration, they're not notable damage: they're only useful for the -regen, the damage they deal is largely negligible.

I'm not saying this setup is somehow innately wrong, but it IS strange and I wonder if these attacks would be more effective with a different focus.

[Completist]

I think this post is right on the money. Have you ever tried Petless MM? It's pretty "hilarious" running out of stamina trying to kill a group of 3 green enemies. I don't think petless has to be viable, mind you, it just goes to show how meaningless the attacks are. I have never understood why MM attacks are both hugely expensive AND do terrible damage. At most one or the other, come on!

 

I dunno, you give them some boost like, when a pet dies, they do more damage for 15 seconds stacking up to 6 times. Or synergy bonuses with each other like the Fighting Pool has.

 

Like Lost Deep said, roughly, there shouldn't be a half-dozen pool powers you are inclined to take before even considering three of your Primary AT powers. 

[Rudra]

I have never and will never make a petless MM. However, there are ample times when I have my MM fight without pets. And against basic non-boss spawns? I have never had the problems I hear about on the forums about MM innate attacks (rather than pet attacks) being useless for lack of damage. It may take my MM an extra hit to drop a mob from the spawn, but oh well. (Edit: And those spawns are white or yellow, never less. So no, I don't understand the problem.) And I'm always firing my MM's innate attacks even when I have my pets out, alternating between attacks and support to keep my pets alive.

 

Yes, this is probably a case of just because I don't see the problem does not mean the problem does not exist, but I have (or have had) MMs of every type and not one has/had this problem. (Though I am definitely not a fan of Beast Mastery's MM innate attacks or lack of range on pets.)

 

Edit again: For clarification? My MMs never run out of END unless a Sapper tags me or a Carnie hits me with an END drain Mask attack. At low levels I'll only be using my pets, a single innate attack, 1 Leadership power, and my secondary toggle; but using those (while attacking with that 1 innate attack) and using my secondary to support my pet(s), I never run out of END. As I get more enhancements slotted, I run full Leadership, Fight pool, secondary toggles, my Patron or ancillary defense toggle, all three innate attacks, and my support powers like heals without any fear of running out of END. And I'm not slotting for END any more than I do for all my other characters (which is still a primary concern in my slotting, just not my main concern).

Edited October 8, 2022 by Rudra

[Wavicle]

I don't think the changes are meant to make the MM attacks really good. They're meant to make them useful for those who want them, but not SO useful that you MUST take them if you don't want them.

 

These changes were to target specific sets. I expect more general MM changes in the future, which may or may not change the way the attacks are treated.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Wavicle

[Riverdusk]

Agreed, with the changes they made to some of the sets they seem to be encouraging the use of the personal attacks.  If they are going to do that, it'd be nice for them to not be so endurance penalized.

 

And not just pool attacks are the only better alternative.  Honestly, my go to if I want to add a little extra damage and have some buttons to press are temp powers. Temp attacks are usually the much better bet than the powers in a mm's primary.   Plasmatic taser (very cheap at P2W) blows any of the MM aoe attacks out of the water even after accounting for enhancements in the mm powers.  It does 102 damage in a cone at level 50 for 14.82 endurance, Thugs empty clips to compare does 24 base damage in a cone at level 50 for 18.98 endurance.

 

Blackwand/nemesis staff is of course the go to for single target that hits a lot harder than any MM power.  Honestly the baseball bat and sledgehammer are fun and effective as well.  

 

Only advantage of the MM attacks is you can slot accuracy, but with tactics, a kismet IO, accuracy set bonuses, and typically some more +tohit or -defense in the secondary, hitting most of the time isn't too much an issue.  Oh, and you can't use temp attacks on a "master" TF attempt, but I typically avoid running those on my MM's anyway.

 

So yes, it'd be nice to at least get a break on the endurance for powers that are generally outclassed by temp attacks as well.

 

 

 

[Rudra]

Fistful of Arrows: MM primary attack as used by my MM at level 50.

Average Damage:52.86

Damage Per Activation Time:45.18

Damage Per Cast Cycle:10.91

Activation Time:1.17s

Recharge Time:3.68s

Endurance Cost:8.01

Accuracy:1.84X

Available Level:8

 

That is copied and pasted straight out of the game. For comparison to your Plasmatic Taser. Something a bit easier for me to compare since I have them:

 

Aimed Shot: MM primary attack as used at level 50.

 Average Damage:58.09

Damage Per Activation Time:58.09

Damage Per Cast Cycle:20.46

Activation Time:1.00s

Recharge Time:1.84s

Endurance Cost:4.88

Accuracy:1.84X

Available Level:2

 

Bow and Arrow: Temp power attack as available on my MM at level 50.

 Average Damage:175.63

Damage Per Activation Time:105.17

Damage Per Cast Cycle:18.16

Activation Time:1.67s

Recharge Time:8.00s

Endurance Cost:10.66

Accuracy:1.15X

 

The MM's innate attack does more damage per cast cycle, is faster on the attack with its activation time, has significantly better accuracy, almost half the END cost, and less than 1/4 the recharge. I'm not sold that temp powers are better than MM primary innate attacks.

 

Edit: And the funny part is? Aimed Shot is listed as a light damage attack to Bow and Arrow's moderate damage, but hits harder per cycle. And since I can get 4 Aimed Shots in per Bow and Arrow, I'm doing approximately 232 damage with my "moderate damage" attack as listed on the OP to the closest temp power's 175.63. And if you want to cite using attack chains? Then I'll go back and add in Snap Shot to the cycle too.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to remove "more" from "a bit more easier".

[Lost Deep]

How many slots are you putting into your aimed shot? Those numbers are along ways away from the baseline: the baseline end is 6.5 and baseline recharge time is 4.0. Especially while leveling slots are at a premium and putting a lot of slots into a Mastermind attacks feel bad. In my own experimenting, they feel much better if you put even a 30% end reduction in them... which is, of course, taking a slot that would normally be reserved for accuracy or damage.

 

Bow and Arrow has a baseline endurance cost of 1.64x the cost of aimed shot, recharge time of 2x aimed shot, and damage 5.74x snap shot. Comparing a raw Bow and Arrow to a no-slots Aimed Shot gives the victory to Bow and Arrow without question.

 

In addition, the second ninja attack is using the first attack profile for other sets, with the first attack being even faster. Which I don't think is super relevant to the balance argument, but an interesting note. In other words, are you sure you don't want to play petless mastermind? By all accounts you'd be very good at it.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Lost Deep
clarification

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Lost Deep said:

How many slots are you putting into your aimed shot?

Aimed Shot is 5-slotted. I treat my MM's innate attacks the same as I treat all the other AT's attacks. My MMs have 6 attacks that are slotted as attacks. 3 just happen to be pets.

 

2 hours ago, Lost Deep said:

Comparing a raw Bow and Arrow to a no-slots Aimed Shot gives the victory to Bow and Arrow without question.

 

16 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

even after accounting for enhancements in the mm powers. 

Temp powers cannot be slotted. The argument that got me to do this was Riverdusk's quoted statement, which is pure garbage.

 

2 hours ago, Lost Deep said:

Comparing a raw Bow and Arrow to a no-slots Aimed Shot gives the victory to Bow and Arrow without question.

Aimed Shot: As used by a level 50 Blaster with no enhancements of any kind slotted anywhere on the character.

 Average Damage:82.58

Damage Per Activation Time:49.45

Damage Per Cast Cycle:10.77

Activation Time:1.67s

Recharge Time:6.00s

Endurance Cost:5.20

Accuracy:1.15X

 

Bow and Arrow: Temp power attack as available on my MM at level 50.

 Average Damage:175.63

Damage Per Activation Time:105.17

Damage Per Cast Cycle:18.16

Activation Time:1.67s

Recharge Time:8.00s

Endurance Cost:10.66

Accuracy:1.15X

 

Uh oh. Looks like Blasters need a buff too. The Bow and Arrow temp power blows the Blaster's unenhanced Aimed Shot completely out of the water. So what metric do you really want to use for MMs?

[Halae]

34 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Aimed Shot is 5-slotted. I treat my MM's innate attacks the same as I treat all the other AT's attacks. My MMs have 6 attacks that are slotted as attacks. 3 just happen to be pets.

Just to pipe in on this specific bit more than anything else, but this is pretty unusual. Based on my own knowledge of building MMs, checking out other peoples' builds, and testing things out (generally by soloing AVs - the Praetorian arc in Peregrine Island is usually good for that for testing purposes) by and large most people abandon MM primary attacks entirely as wasted power slots because they don't contribute anything significant over other options you could take. The fact that you've even 5-slotted them is something I've literally never seen anybody do in any build that I've tested, even the ones that didn't pan out as worthwhile; the ones that do take and slot them are usually those theoretical petless builds.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Halae
Clarity

[Riverdusk]

Pure garbage eh?  Nice.  Way to keep things civil @Rudra.  I specifically alluded to temp attacks not being able to be slotted, so I think I know that.   I addressed the biggest drawback and acknowledged it, accuracy, but there are many ways to overcome that, most that I'd do even if I didn't use temp powers, so zero extra effort.  But I admit that may be different for others, I was speaking personal experience.  The whole post of course was also personal experience, I find temp powers, especially plasmatic taser very strong (and I hope I don't get it nerfed).

 

Anyway, I specifically mentioned plasmatic taser and empty clips, so how about we compare those?

 

Thugs empty clips (Slotted with 95% worth of damage enhancements)

Average damage: 47.1

DPA: 25.74

Activation Time: 1.83

Recharge Time: 8 seconds

Endurance Cost: 18.98

 

Plasmatic Taser (No enhancements because yes I do know temp powers can't be slotted)

Average damage: 102

DPA: 96

Activation Time: 1.07 seconds

Recharge Time: 12 seconds

Endurance cost: 14.82

 

Not even including that plasmatic taser has a bigger arc 45 degrees compared to 30,  which is a pretty huge difference.  Radius are the same.  You'd have to slot about 28% endurance reduction to empty clips to get it down to the same endurance cost as the free temp power.  The free temp power that (even after fully slotting the MM primary attack for damage) still does more than twice the average damage and almost 4 times the DPA of the MM attack.  Only other basic disadvantages of taser is the 4 second longer recharge, but I'd say twice the damage and 4 times the dpa yes "blow that out of the water".  Especially when you start accounting for global recharge reduction which tend to reduce that gap on an absolute basis.  At perma hasten levels taser is recharging in about 4.3 seconds.  I'm not going to be firing it off more often than that anyway most likely, I do have other things to do.  I'll take the bigger arc and the huge damage difference over the slightly faster recharge.

 

To be totally fair, the taser of course also can't be slotted with procs, and it has knockback that can't be slotted with a kb to kd IO.  To also be fair, the temp power costs a whopping 50k influence for every 240 charges (yes I'm being sarcastic on that one, that is virtually free).  Compared to the mm attack costing you a power pick and 5 or 6 slots in your build.  Temp power wins that one imo.

 

Anyway, besides all of that, most players aren't even asking for much, a little bit of endurance reduction?  So all the pushback is a bit weird.  How about giving MM's the free 28% endurance reduction that the close to equivalent temp power has?  Don't think anyone is even asking to address the huge damage disparity.

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Riverdusk

[Wavicle]

I don’t have any problem with MMs getting lower end costs on some powers.

[Lost Deep]

It's important to remember that no experience is universal. Some players only do basic IO slotting, some only do SO slotting. I myself have some issues with Endurance slotting, and I try to keep that in mind whenever I'm giving feedback. It was while investigating this endurance slotting that I noticed that Mastermind attacks baseline cost more endurance than most comparable attacks. If you propose that mastermind attacks are properly scaled to the correct damage output of the mastermind character, which I do believe, you're still paying more endurance for it.Demon Summoning and Beast Mastery justifies these costs by giving the attacks powerful utility that isn't seen in other sets: a way to increase the value of the attacks and make them worth taking without increasing the literal damage output of the Mastermind.

 

In addition, in CoH high-end +4x8 play is COMPLETELY different than +0x1 play in the beginning or mid-game. My understanding is that leveling up a character usually needs about 2 respecs, or at the very least one at 50 to set up your slots right for high-end builds. If a Mastermind attack is great at the high-end for some specific reason, that's great and I hope you have fun, but you unlock the attacks at levels 1, 2, and 8. In these early levels you're low on powers and slots, and things are starting to ramp-up into being actually baseline challenging. Having to pay more endurance for less results in a tight economy for slot choices doesn't feel good.

 

My personal experience is that every time I have End trouble with a mastermind, the first step is to get rid of the mastermind basic attacks. Thus far that has never left me worse off. I understand that this isn't going to be universal, but I want to understand why this is happening to me and according to official data Masterminds do, in fact, pay more endurance baseline for the basic attacks.

 

I'd just like those attacks to either receive reduced endurance costs to bring them into line, or improved utility so the endurance tax is on actual, broadly useful mechanics.

[Riverdusk]

1 minute ago, Lost Deep said:

It's important to remember that no experience is universal. Some players only do basic IO slotting, some only do SO slotting. I myself have some issues with Endurance slotting, and I try to keep that in mind whenever I'm giving feedback. It was while investigating this endurance slotting that I noticed that Mastermind attacks baseline cost more endurance than most comparable attacks. If you propose that mastermind attacks are properly scaled to the correct damage output of the mastermind character, which I do believe, you're still paying more endurance for it.Demon Summoning and Beast Mastery justifies these costs by giving the attacks powerful utility that isn't seen in other sets: a way to increase the value of the attacks and make them worth taking without increasing the literal damage output of the Mastermind.

 

In addition, in CoH high-end +4x8 play is COMPLETELY different than +0x1 play in the beginning or mid-game. My understanding is that leveling up a character usually needs about 2 respecs, or at the very least one at 50 to set up your slots right for high-end builds. If a Mastermind attack is great at the high-end for some specific reason, that's great and I hope you have fun, but you unlock the attacks at levels 1, 2, and 8. In these early levels you're low on powers and slots, and things are starting to ramp-up into being actually baseline challenging. Having to pay more endurance for less results in a tight economy for slot choices doesn't feel good.

 

My personal experience is that every time I have End trouble with a mastermind, the first step is to get rid of the mastermind basic attacks. Thus far that has never left me worse off. I understand that this isn't going to be universal, but I want to understand why this is happening to me and according to official data Masterminds do, in fact, pay more endurance baseline for the basic attacks.

 

I'd just like those attacks to either receive reduced endurance costs to bring them into line, or improved utility so the endurance tax is on actual, broadly useful mechanics.

 

You probably already know, but MM's also pay more endurance for most secondary powers as well, and for lessor effect.  Darkest night for example costs a MM .65 endurance a second, for everyone else it is .52.  Just one example.

[Wavicle]

This is because MMs get a ton of damage output for basically free.

[Rudra]

30 minutes ago, Halae said:

Just to pipe in on this specific bit more than anything else, but this is pretty unusual. Based on my own knowledge of building MMs, checking out other peoples' builds, and testing things out (generally by soloing AVs - the Praetorian arc in Peregrine Island is usually good for that for testing purposes) by and large most people abandon MM primary attacks entirely as wasted power slots because they don't contribute anything significant over other options you could take. The fact that you've even 5-slotted them is something I've literally never seen anybody do in any build that I've tested, even the ones that didn't pan out as worthwhile; the ones that do take and slot them are usually those theoretical petless builds.

I don't know about other people's builds for MMs. I don't really care how other people slot their MMs. I don't even care if the END cost for MM powers is reduced. It won't hinder me at all. I always slot my MM's innate attacks. Ranged attacks typically do less damage than melee ones, so of course I expect the melee attacks in the OP to outdamage them. The claim that MMs can't even clear a spawn of green minions without crashing their END reserve and the claim that MM innate attacks are too under-powered compared to temp powers is what is getting me. Even with no enhancements, I have never played an MM that ran out of END taking down white con minions, let alone green. Until I see an MM unable to take down -2 minions, I will hold those comments to be garbage.

 

28 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

Pure garbage eh?  Nice.  Way to keep things civil @Rudra. 

What is so uncivil about the comment? I didn't say anything about you personally, I said that claim is pure garbage. And I showed why. Your comment was that even after accounting for enhancements on the MM's attacks, they could not compete with temp powers. And they obviously can. It's not just accuracy that makes or breaks a power. Not even. You have to look at the power in its entirety if you are going to make comparisons.

 

I don't have a Thugs MM any more. Didn't like the set. Will probably try it again later to see if changing other elements makes me more inclined to keep playing them. Otherwise, I would take the Thugs innate attacks, find the most comparable temp power I can, and run a comparison between them.

 

6 minutes ago, Lost Deep said:

My understanding is that leveling up a character usually needs about 2 respecs, or at the very least one at 50 to set up your slots right for high-end builds.

I've never respecced my MMs unless a new enhancement set was released that I thought would be of more use. Neither will I run +4/x8 missions on my MMs. The slog of clearing the missions is way more than I am willing to deal with.

 

So let's sum up here. You build your MMs however you want. I don't care how you build or play them. I don't care if MM innate attacks get their END cost reduced. I care about the fact that easily disproven claims are being made about MMs.

[Riverdusk]

15 minutes ago, Rudra said:

 

 I said that claim is pure garbage. And I showed why.

Except you didn't do any such thing and I showed why.  Think we've reached the agree to disagree stage.  Good luck to you in your future super hero, or villain, endeavors. 

[Rudra]

I grabbed Plasmatic Taser to look at it.

 

 Plasmatic Taser: As used by a level 50 Blaster

Average Damage:102.81

Damage Per Activation Time:96.08

Damage Per Cast Cycle:7.87

Activation Time:1.07s

Recharge Time:12.00s

Endurance Cost:14.82

Accuracy:1.00X

 

Fistful of Arrows: MM primary attack as used by my MM at level 50.

Average Damage:52.86

Damage Per Activation Time:45.18

Damage Per Cast Cycle:10.91

Activation Time:1.17s

Recharge Time:3.68s

Endurance Cost:8.01

Accuracy:1.84X

Available Level:8

 

They are both cone attacks. Both at level 50. The innate Fistful of Arrows has the higher damage per cast cycle, much better recharge, better END cost. and way better accuracy. Taser is the faster attack with its activation time. And I only have Fistful of Arrows 4-slotted. (I can't get Plasmatic Taser on that MM because that MM is on an ITF with a friend. And she can only play 2 days a week. And my other remaining MMs are not yet 50.)

 

We're obviously not going to convince each other though. So sure. We agree to disagree.