Phantom Army - dom vs troller

[laudwic]

2 minutes ago, serxiom said:

Illusion on Dominators got PA and PH, Both Pets are way ahead on DPS than Symphony Pet which is weak even if you compare it with Dark control pets. Im not a mathematic in game player but from having 8 dominators i can tell that Illusion as a primary got more DPS than the rest of the other sets. 

 

I agree with you the lack of control of Illusion on doms. Having all NPCs bouncing everywhere due knockbaks or not having tha advantage of Pet tauntig as controllers, makes Illusion chaotic in some point but still manageable. 

Controller Illusion version is superior because got a perfect balance of dps/control and on top of that you can use buff/debuffs from seconday powersets making a Illusion troller more effective than a Dominators for some types of content. 

 

Symphony Pet has it's problems, I still wish it had an ability to use an attack that wasn't mirroring something you did, if you are using your Dom powers mirrors of the cones have saved my rear end and it serves as a decent damage sponge at times.  The Symphony pet can be lackluster and I would rather have Phantasm than Reverberant when it comes down to it.  I would take I would take Umbral Beast over Phantasm.  Singularity is FAR superior to any of the other pets.  I have watched Singularity solo an Elite Boss I did not realize had come up behind my character.  It would have taken awhile, but Singularity would have won by itself.  

 

You should not be comparing Phantom Army with Reverberant.  Now, would I take DOM Phantom Army over Confounding Chant other than the it's cute factor?  These are the powers at the same level, both are to be AoE Control and Damage.  Confounding Chant is a Cone Superior DoT and Disorient.  Slotted correctly it will do enough or almost enough damage to take out minions, and it will significantly damage LTs and stun them until you take them out.  Confounding Chant benefits from Domination.  PA on DOM offers little control, does not do well with large spawns, has some damage but significantly less than Confounding Chant, and while there is some wandering for a Stun, Confounding Chant offers far superior control.   

 

The most apt comparison for Dom Phantom Army is Darkness Haunt.  Same level, similar powers.  Phantom Army has 3 versus 2 summoned by Haunt, PA does a little more damage before heal back, after healback Haunt does 3x the damage.  Haunt does accuracy debuff and PA does some minor knockdown/stun/sleep.  Oh, and Haunt has Taunt.  Haunt has a shorter recharge time and costs half as much end to cast.  PA can't be killed, Haunt can.  I think Haunt has a longer duration of 60 seconds vs. 45 for PA.

 

I've got my 4 doms to 50 via the vast majority or entirely solo no use of AE, as with an Ill/TA controller.  Leveling up a Sym/Eng before taking a Ill/Eng Dom in test and live.  I can see the difference.  My Ill/Eng is currenlty only 32, but I did a bunch of ignored testing on Beta for Ill/Eng and Ill/Fire.

 

[Frosticus]

20 hours ago, biostem said:

So do the powers in the other sets that doms & controllers both have access to, deal different amount of damage as well?  If so, are they in line with this discrepancy?

No, as far as I can tell all pets are a direct port - so fire imps are identical, haunts are identical, singy is the same

All psuedopets are identical* - so creepers is the same, ice slick is the same, spectral terror is the same, volcanic gases

All direct damage powers follow the damage scale of the appropriate AT. So confounding chant hits a lot harder for doms than trollers (before considering containment)

All primary direct powers gain the AT inherent where applicable - so firecages can double base damage with containment and proc +1 mag 20% of the time for trollers. And it gains domination for doms.

 

 

The only exceptions seem to be found in illusion and darkness

*Shadow field (bugged) has an AT specific psuedopet, but it wasn't implemented entirely correct and has matching debuff values (troller have higher debuff AT modifier). So doms version is better than it should be (15% tohit debuff, but should be 11.25%)

PA is very different - Troller version is way better

Phantasm - decoy power - is a bit different - Troller version is better.

Group invis was changed to Gleam (and renamed haha)

 

I'm of the mindset that a lot of things were just copy/pasted to doms that should have been adjusted. Things like psuedopets that do damage should do more damage on doms and things that debuff should debuff better on trollers. That is in line with the AT modifiers.

Ex. Dom singy should hit harder, but have weaker slows and shorter base duration controls vs Troller singy

Ex. Ice slick should do more damage for doms, but have a weaker -speed competent.

 

I also think all psuedopets (volcanic gases, spec terror, etc) should have AT specific versions (like shadow field) that work with AT inherents. 

Maybe illusion will make doms popular enough to warrant the attention they deserve to fix up the little errors.

[Frosticus]

I'm getting a bit off topic here, but...

 

I think dominator illusion is a good set. I don't think it stands notably above or below any of the others. It is good at both single target control and aoe control, but is not the best in either category, it definitely isn't the worst either.

 

Dom illusion is very formulaic and a bit cookie cutter. It gave up most of what makes it unique on a controller to fit a more generic dominator model.

Troller illusion offers unparalleled single target control, but is pretty bad at aoe control. It actually makes a ton of sense thematically.

 

The illusions I put out seem to fool no one. 

 

But it is still a good set because gleam is a good aoe stun and PA is still a good "pet" if for no other reason than their damage delivery is reliable by virtue of them being unaffected by most enemies. 

 

Comparatively, if I jump on my earth dom I really feel like a control earth elements. Dark doms have a ton of thematic powers. Gravity pulls things through time and space... Plant covers the field with massive powerful vines that follow you around wrecking everything. Etc Etc. It's not always about being the most optimized, thematics matter to me and dom illusion doesn't feel like much of a master illusionist. 

 

But I'm still playing it because I have mirror images while teleporting around (feral charge), so that is really cool looking even if it doesn't do anything.

 

Dominator PA must have come from wish.com

[Frosticus]

Unfortunately Dom PA rarely uses their melee attacks either. Their AI seems to be set to "ranged" (why can't that happen with phantasm??)

 

With no taunt things rarely close the distance to them so they just sit back pew pew'ing water balloons. 

Better if you summon them right on your target.

 

Still decent though. 

[serxiom]

12 hours ago, Frosticus said:

With no taunt things rarely close the distance to them so they just sit back pew pew'ing water balloons. 

Better if you summon them right on your target.

And summon them checking where possible the knocback effect will go... otherwise you might pull aggro 2-3 groups. 

 

I agree with you: Illusion set is fun to play and is a below troller version due pet pechanics and control. I went with Ill/Ice combo ( i like secondaries with PB) and i had a good time leveling with him. Defenitly Illusion is one of my 4 favorite dominators (i do have a Dark/Rad, Plant/MA and Ice/Enrg). 

Sometimes is chaotic when you pull all your pets out but the DPS is so good for taking down groups of NPCs. I like the balance that Spectral Terror brings with fear -tohit.

 

Still working on the accolades and finishing incarnates. Very enjoyable toon to play. 

[SeraphimKensai]

I've been playing my Ill/Savage quite a bit and the difference between Controller and Domi PA is significant, but so far and it's likely more so because of my build the lack of taunt hasn't been an issue.

 

That said I thought it would be cool to take PA for a bit of a redesign in that it always spawns three phantoms, but what if it randomly rolled for an attack set for each Phantom so the result of what you got would be different with each cast.

 

Ex. 1.

1. Phantom Spines
2. Phantom Ice Blast
3. Phantom Dual Pistols

Ex. 2.

1. Phantom Dual Blades
2. Phantom Electric Blast
3. Phantom Battle Axe

Ex. 3.

1. Phantom Fire Blast
2. Phantom Radiation Melee
3. Phantom Super Strength

Then they just give the Phantoms an inherent buff to give their attacks the Illusionary Damage Heal back, perhaps fixed at 66%.

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by SeraphimKensai

[Qualith]

On 10/25/2022 at 4:14 PM, Erratic1 said:

I think names only get changed when there are significant differences in behavior. If doing less damage were the criteria then every power in Blast sets between Blasters, Corruptors, Defenders, and Sentinels or in Melee Damage set between Brutes, Scrappers, Stalkers, and Tankers would have different names.

 

Controllers deal damage via their controls. Dominators have Assault sets for that. Doing a bit less damage with Illusion as a control power while otherwise dealing damage with Assault powers does not strike me as the set not serving its fundamental control aspect. 

It's not just less damage.  The dominator version, uses different attacks and animations as well as lacking taunt. It's a similar power, but obviously not close to the original.

 

[Frosticus]

Taunting invincible summons are probably more problematic from a balance perspective than Rage is on superstrength. 

I can appreciate that.

 

 I'd have changed it and abandoned the power completely the second the powers team said:

"hey we are going to swap out the taunt for water balloons and make the ice sword put them to sleep.... That's cool right?"

 

I'd have scrapped PA entirely and put in:

Mimic

summon 2 powerful illusions that mimic your assault powerset by using the doppleganger system. But only assault powers, no controls.

I'd also have abandoned the "indestructible" aspect and just given them super high resistances, so they are practically indestructible. However extremely powerful foes could still conceivably defeat them before they expire without using gimmick powers, especially if you don't help them in battle to further the illusion. 

-immune to healing/regeneration, but otherwise buffable (and debuffable). 

-i'd strip secondary effects from the "assault" powers they use and replace it with mag 2 confuse and fear procs (thematic in making the illusionist "slippery" and avoids some potential issues).

-keep healback % in place

 

Done. No more broken indestructible tanks. Doms get a unique and cool power that is different with each ill/x combo rather than a drastically downgraded "wish.com PA". No need for gimmick powers to defeat them. Trollers don't feel left out because it only mimics assault powers (that trollers don't get), not controls.

 

*I really enjoy my ill/sav. It is fun and powerful, but damn did they phone it in illusion*

 

[Mopery]

I thought the port would be awesome, but it was just an illusion...