Some practical questions around IOs and diminishing returns

[MunkiLord]

Other great example: ANY damage power but let's use Knockout Blow from SS

148 base damage

2 25 damage IOs = 243 dmg

3 50 damage IOs = 295 dmg

 

50 damage is nothing to sneeze at in this case BUT, what about the free slot I get? I can slot 6 total and would much rather have 2 recharge and 2 accuracy for this heavy hitting power. Hitting twice as often and more accurately is way more valuable than the 50 damage per hit.

 

Am I crazy here? Do most people just not get it or do I not get it?

 

Missed this initially, but I think seeing it as 50 is the wrong way to look at it. It's 20% more damage, which is significant. Depending on the power a second recharge could indeed have a dramatic impact on damage too, but will a second accuracy increase the powers overall damage by 20%? That is extremely unlikely.

Sure if the comparison is 2 lvl 25 IOs vs 3 lvl 50 IOs but if you are looking at 2 lvl 50 IOs that is 83.32% enhancement which gets you 272.2 dmg & extra lvl 50 IO will barely get you more than 20 more points of damage!

 

Which is still about 7.5% increase in damage, which is also not insignificant. There is a reason that slotting three SOs/IOs is very much the norm and common practice. Until someone shows the math that an additional accuracy or a recharge would give a bigger increase to damage, that is not going to change. Also, when comparing these values, subtraction is a poor way to do it. The percentage will give a more useful comparison.

 

There is a lot of general statements being made here. Slotting three of one type of level 50 IOs absolutely makes sense if it helps you reach certain goals. If you are a Scrapper or Blaster and want to maximize your damage with generic IOs, then add that third damage. If you want Hasten up more often, slot that third recharge.

 

edit: Works the other way too. If your particular character goal isn't focused or high damage, then perhaps that slot could be better used elsewhere.

 

There is such a thing as opportunity cost. You mentioned accuracy, a better example could be recharge. A second recharge vs a third damage seems a better option in almost any scenario for dps. Accuracy could be a better option as well as you can get more than a 20% increased chance to hit on reds which is more than 20% damage over time. Even better, if you still have end issues leveling to 50 then cost reduction could be your biggest dps gain, change third damage in all powers to end reduction and suddenly you don't have 5-10 second pauses in long fights.

 

Goals are irrelevant here if they are based in flawed assumptions.

 

Edit: meant to also copy post under yours and address both

 

I don't disagree entirely here, just adding caveat.

 

There are too many variables to have just one answer, but that additional recharge will not matter on lower DPA attacks that aren't used as often. The standard is 3 damage and then some other mix of acc/end redux/recharge. That is generally the best way to slot, but there are countless exceptions to that. 3 damage is the starting place(for DPS focused characters) and people should adjust accordingly to fit their playstyle and character needs. Until there is hard data taking into account various common play scenarios to prove the standard is wrong, people are better off using the common way of doing it and adjusting when they need to.

[MunkiLord]

Would also like to note that teaming at 50 will very frequently mean buffs and/or debuffs are in play and it is much easier to cap to-hit or add more recovery or recharge than it is to cap damage. Solo players will obviously be dependent on the powerset, but a Broadsword character will benefit less from more accuracy than other powersets. And secondary effects are very, very common.

[Prototech]

Other great example: ANY damage power but let's use Knockout Blow from SS

148 base damage

2 25 damage IOs = 243 dmg

3 50 damage IOs = 295 dmg

 

50 damage is nothing to sneeze at in this case BUT, what about the free slot I get? I can slot 6 total and would much rather have 2 recharge and 2 accuracy for this heavy hitting power. Hitting twice as often and more accurately is way more valuable than the 50 damage per hit.

 

Am I crazy here? Do most people just not get it or do I not get it?

 

Missed this initially, but I think seeing it as 50 is the wrong way to look at it. It's 20% more damage, which is significant. Depending on the power a second recharge could indeed have a dramatic impact on damage too, but will a second accuracy increase the powers overall damage by 20%? That is extremely unlikely.

Sure if the comparison is 2 lvl 25 IOs vs 3 lvl 50 IOs but if you are looking at 2 lvl 50 IOs that is 83.32% enhancement which gets you 272.2 dmg & extra lvl 50 IO will barely get you more than 20 more points of damage!

 

Which is still about 7.5% increase in damage, which is also not insignificant. There is a reason that slotting three SOs/IOs is very much the norm and common practice. Until someone shows the math that an additional accuracy or a recharge would give a bigger increase to damage, that is not going to change. Also, when comparing these values, subtraction is a poor way to do it. The percentage will give a more useful comparison.

 

There is a lot of general statements being made here. Slotting three of one type of level 50 IOs absolutely makes sense if it helps you reach certain goals. If you are a Scrapper or Blaster and want to maximize your damage with generic IOs, then add that third damage. If you want Hasten up more often, slot that third recharge.

 

edit: Works the other way too. If your particular character goal isn't focused or high damage, then perhaps that slot could be better used elsewhere.

 

There is such a thing as opportunity cost. You mentioned accuracy, a better example could be recharge. A second recharge vs a third damage seems a better option in almost any scenario for dps. Accuracy could be a better option as well as you can get more than a 20% increased chance to hit on reds which is more than 20% damage over time. Even better, if you still have end issues leveling to 50 then cost reduction could be your biggest dps gain, change third damage in all powers to end reduction and suddenly you don't have 5-10 second pauses in long fights.

 

Goals are irrelevant here if they are based in flawed assumptions.

 

Edit: meant to also copy post under yours and address both

 

I don't disagree entirely here, just adding caveat.

 

There are too many variables to have just one answer, but that additional recharge will not matter on lower DPA attacks that aren't used as often. The standard is 3 damage and then some other mix of acc/end redux/recharge. That is generally the best way to slot, but there are countless exceptions to that. 3 damage is the starting place(for DPS focused characters) and people should adjust accordingly to fit their playstyle and character needs. Until there is hard data taking into account various common play scenarios to prove the standard is wrong, people are better off using the common way of doing it and adjusting when they need to.

 

Let me try then but a few points first.

 

1. concerning low DPA attacks - yes obviously if I said anything to suggest all powers are equal in where certain enhancers should go it was not intentional

2. Math... ah this was one of my main points. Those hard math calculations are actually not good things to go by because they don't take practical reality into consideration. Basically you are wrong in the fundamental assumption that the math modeled usually on a per power basis is the best guide. Especially when leveling and slotting as you go, then at 50 its set time anyway. It also doesn't factor in the frequency of hit debuffs, potential end drain. If it does it's at a non end issue level where again... sets.

 

But even with that said, let's do some math.

 

Equal level enemy, base 75% chance to hit. 60 second window. Brute SS Knockout blow at 50% fury at level 50 with 25 IOs (because that's what I have in pines).

 

3 dam, 1 acc, 1 rec, 1 endcost

433 damage should hit every time and lets assume one endcost will prevent running out in long term which would kill all dps anyway (for this build we are running, some while leveling may need 2!) Recharge now at 19 seconds

 

3 attacks in 60 seconds = 433x3 = 1299

 

2 dam, 1 acc, 2 rec, 1 endcost > recharge is now 15 seconds

 

4 attacks in 60 seconds = 392x4 = 1568

 

... ... ...

 

This isn't down to the decimal so I guess you can fault me for that but hopefully this is enough to make you realize that going with some hard math model on dmg enhancers only is just a flawed approach.

 

Feel free to correct me, couldn't make me happier to learn something new. Just don't go into some small technicality or theoretical just for the sake of it. To me for long cooldown hard hitting powers another recharge is absolutely more valuable than a third damage for dps.

 

 

Edit: You know I will say I just realized more attacks means more end spent... So following my own rule of practical vs theoretical, if this means running out of end and 3 attacks does not (as long as you always have another attack off cooldown to attack at all times) then I'm wrong with this as soon as that end is out. If recovery can keep up with scenario 1 non stop than it's higher long term dps and faster playing/leveling. But looking at end means taking whole build into account and the length of a mission/string of fights... so that's a whole other deeper look that certainly isn't modeled by any hard math that I've seen so far.

 

[MunkiLord]

I don't have access to Pine's right now, but your example with 2 recharge and 2 damage has the same damage numbers as 3 damage.

[Prototech]

I don't have access to Pine's right now, but your example with 2 recharge and 2 damage has the same damage numbers as 3 damage.

 

yeah fixed, still better

[MunkiLord]

Fair, but with SS Rage being easily permanent to near permanent would equate to +20% to hit buff at most(or all) times. So in this example I'd skip the accuracy and use 3 damage and 2 recharge.

 

3 damage for attacks should be the baseline and adjusted accordingly based on specific character/build needs. There are just so many scenarios, especially with accuracy and tohit chances that there is usually room for 3 damage. Rain of Arrows, Lightning Rod, Shield Charge being good examples as they have almost the exact same recharge as Aim/Build Up(assuming similar recharge slotting). So I believe it is a safe conclusion that people will use those buffs at the same time as the mentioned powers when they can and that very well may open up a slot for that third damage, or perhaps in another power if it is needed more elsewhere.

[Prototech]

Fair, but with SS Rage being easily permanent to near permanent would equate to +20% to hit buff at most times. So in this example I'd skip the accuracy and use 3 damage and 2 recharge.

 

3 damage for attacks should be the baseline and adjusted accordingly based on specific character/build needs. There are just so many scenarios, especially with accuracy and tohit chances that there is usually room for 3 damage. Rain of Arrows, Lightning Rod, Shield Charge being good examples as they have almost the exact same recharge as Aim/Build Up. So I believe it is a safe conclusion that people will use those buffs at the same time as the mentioned powers and that very well may open up a slot for that third damage, or perhaps in another power if it is needed more elsewhere.

 

You need sets for perma uptime on Rage no? But in general I agree with your response. But we could go in circles like that because If I fight reds or enemies with tohit debuffs I may want two acc, but if in a good group of 8 I may need 0 acc etc etc.

 

Point is, especially if you are leveling and maybe soloing, the common wisdom isn't always right, best to analyze your powers and rotations and choose based on that with an understanding of the basics.

 

Sidenote: I hate missing, I'll grab more acc even if it's a theoretical dps loss, that may bias me a bit

[MunkiLord]

You need three recharge and that will cut it in half which makes it perma. But then dealing with the crash and other issues like the -def can greatly complicate things. So hiding during the debuff can also make recharge a little less important lol.

 

best to analyze your powers and rotations and choose based on that with an understanding of the basics.

 

Sidenote: I hate missing, I'll grab more acc even if it's a theoretical dps loss, that may bias me a bit

 

I agree, I just think 3 is the starting place and to adjust from there, at least at level 50. While leveling most of my attacks don't have three damage because of a lack of slots to go around, with only a couple I six slot asap. I hate missing too, but I heavily abuse inspirations to the point there have been a couple times I've created a temporary shortage on the market and prices skyrocketed.

[Prototech]

You need three recharge and that will cut it in half which makes it perma. But then dealing with the crash and other issues like the -def can greatly complicate things. So hiding during the debuff can also make recharge a little less important lol.

 

best to analyze your powers and rotations and choose based on that with an understanding of the basics.

 

Sidenote: I hate missing, I'll grab more acc even if it's a theoretical dps loss, that may bias me a bit

 

I agree, I just think 3 is the starting place and to adjust from there, at least at level 50. While leveling most of my attacks don't have three damage because of a lack of slots to go around, with only a couple I six slot asap. I hate missing too, but I heavily abuse inspirations to the point there have been a couple times I've created a temporary shortage on the market and prices skyrocketed.

 

A like (inf?) for you for the constructive conversation!

 

Man inspirations, haven't even thought of factoring those into my 'model'... back to the drawing board.

[Chance Jackson]

Other great example: ANY damage power but let's use Knockout Blow from SS

148 base damage

2 25 damage IOs = 243 dmg

3 50 damage IOs = 295 dmg

 

50 damage is nothing to sneeze at in this case BUT, what about the free slot I get? I can slot 6 total and would much rather have 2 recharge and 2 accuracy for this heavy hitting power. Hitting twice as often and more accurately is way more valuable than the 50 damage per hit.

 

Am I crazy here? Do most people just not get it or do I not get it?

 

Missed this initially, but I think seeing it as 50 is the wrong way to look at it. It's 20% more damage, which is significant. Depending on the power a second recharge could indeed have a dramatic impact on damage too, but will a second accuracy increase the powers overall damage by 20%? That is extremely unlikely.

Sure if the comparison is 2 lvl 25 IOs vs 3 lvl 50 IOs but if you are looking at 2 lvl 50 IOs that is 83.32% enhancement which gets you 272.2 dmg an extra lvl 50 IO will barely get you more than 20 more points of damage!

 

Which is still about 7.5% increase in damage

That is a TO worth of improvement & you're not even getting that when you're under the influence of other damage buffs. Lets use a baseline of 50% fury, if you're only at 50% fury(which gives you a 100% damage boost) that 3rd lvl 50 IO is only giving you 3.75% damage increase to the specified power(KO Blow in this case) being at or above 75% fury is the norm imo.

[MunkiLord]

Which is still more valuable than an accuracy in that power because of Rage.

[BelleSorciere]

End reduction is even better for those people who chase the fury bar and run out of end all the time.

[Erydanus]

I skimmed this thread and it sounds like people have really heard some bad advice tossed around. Though it is also possible people have misheard the advice tossed around; chat channels tend to go fast and I've witnessed someone only catching literally half the advice given to them which at times is worse than none at all. I'm also a little curious about which servers this kind of bad advice (like three level 50 generic damage IOs... ow) because on Excelsior help channel we do not let this kind of misinformation go by.

 

The key points are:

 

1. three level 25 IOs are an economical way to max a parameter, like damage, without wasting much to ED's diminishing returns cliff

2. Enhancement diversification is not linked to slotting 3 enhancements, it's by the numbers: cracking 90% for most parameters and 50% for others like defense. 92-94% and 54-56% are the sweet spots.

3. IOs don't expire or need to be replaced so you don't have to worry about upgrading them suddenly, not even at 50.

4. At level 47 you may wish to reslot using level 50 IOs in which case 2 brings you near the ED cliff; especially true for powers like Health and Stamina you normally stick with generic IOs for

5. Many people find it's better to wait until 50 to do sets because the potency of level 50s is so high it adjusts how many slots you need. If you're focusing on just tuning the power (including Frankenslotting) then you know what the sweet spot targets are; most people using sets at 50 overslot powers in an effort to get set bonuses.

 

[MunkiLord]

If we're talking sets, that's a whole new ball game. At this point I like to start frankenslotting cheap attuned IOs whenever I can. Mako's Bite is surprisingly dirt cheap as of a few days ago and Crushing Impact I'd generally cheap too.

[BelleSorciere]

My dark/dark scrapper was all about like 75% frankenslotting and 25% really expensive stuff and lots of fun.

 

The cheap sets are[i/] good.