Some practical questions around IOs and diminishing returns

[Prototech]

Hi community!

 

So I've been making assumptions around IOs based on in game chat and these forums. Now that I've been back for a bit and experimented with the game+pines it seems to me that people have strange ideas around IOs. It's like the most common approach is highly theoretical and doesn't take into account realistic or economic scenarios while leveling. To summarize my own thoughts before getting into it.

 

1. Just get the lowest level IOs that are of negligible cost to you around level 22-30 (for me this is level 25 IOs)

2. Don't bother upgrading until end game with plenty of inf and even go straight to sets if you can

3. slotting more than 2 of any kind of IO seems like intense diminishing returns, more than 3 is almost always stupid

 

When stacking IOs, whether you have level 25 or 50 IOs seems almost negligible in scale. Especially if you have to spend time gathering inf. This is especially true for low values like your first attack or willpower minor defenses.

 

Perfect example is High Pain tolerance:

3 level 25 IOs = total of 8.68% res

3 level 50 IOs = total of 8.91% res

 

Here is the kicker

2 level 25 IOs = total of 7.79% res

 

You barely gain 1% by going from 2 25s to 3 50s!!!!

 

This goes against so many of the recommendations I've been seeing, seems a lot of people have no clue and so many of the builds I see posted are nuts. Please jump in and educate me here If I'm missing something.

 

Other great example: ANY damage power but let's use Knockout Blow from SS

148 base damage

2 25 damage IOs = 243 dmg

3 50 damage IOs = 295 dmg

 

50 damage is nothing to sneeze at in this case BUT, what about the free slot I get? I can slot 6 total and would much rather have 2 recharge and 2 accuracy for this heavy hitting power. Hitting twice as often and more accurately is way more valuable than the 50 damage per hit.

 

Am I crazy here? Do most people just not get it or do I not get it?

 

 

 

 

[joyispunkrolex]

Most of the time, end game builds are probably looking for either set bonuses, where all the IOs are meant to work together and usually wind up with something like 85% Damage, 50% Acc, 40% Recharge, 40% End reduction. If they aren't doing that, they're probably Frankenslotting with the goal of maximizing Damage/Recharge/Acc/defensive/healing values of their powers.  If I have six slots in an attack power and I'm at 90%+ damage in the first three slots, I just prioritize the other aspects of the power I want to enhance using the double or triple aspect IOs from set pieces.

[MunkiLord]

A person's goals heavily factor into this as well. An extra point or two in a power may not matter 99% of the time, but if the goal is to squeeze out every ounce of DPS or reach some goal like perma-hasten or soft capped defenses, then it starts to matter.

 

Additionally one level 50 IO accuracy is more than sufficient for accuracy purposes assuming you're not debuffed or fighting stuff way above your level.

[Prototech]

Most of the time, end game builds are probably looking for either set bonuses, where all the IOs are meant to work together and usually wind up with something like 85% Damage, 50% Acc, 40% Recharge, 40% End reduction. If they aren't doing that, they're probably Frankenslotting with the goal of maximizing Damage/Recharge/Acc/defensive/healing values of their powers.  If I have six slots in an attack power and I'm at 90%+ damage in the first three slots, I just prioritize the other aspects of the power I want to enhance using the double or triple aspect IOs from set pieces.

 

Right once sets come in it changes things completely. However so many of the recommendations and builds I see are all about slotting IOs as you level and hit 50... I haven't even looked at sets, hopefully what I've seen from others there actually ends up being the right info, so far on IOs it's been 90% wrong.

[Prototech]

A person's goals heavily factor into this as well. An extra point or two in a power may not matter 99% of the time, but if the goal is to squeeze out every ounce of DPS or reach some goal like perma-hasten or soft capped defenses, then it starts to matter.

 

Additionally one level 50 IO accuracy is more than sufficient for accuracy purposes assuming you're not debuffed or fighting stuff way above your level.

 

Fighting above level all the time and getting debuffed all the time so overcapping accuracy seems sensible but point taken. As far as squeezing dps, again you can do so better by lowering recharge and end cost than by adding a third damage IO. This is exactly what I'm talking about, more damage IOs =/= dps after 2 in many if not most cases.

[MunkiLord]

A person's goals heavily factor into this as well. An extra point or two in a power may not matter 99% of the time, but if the goal is to squeeze out every ounce of DPS or reach some goal like perma-hasten or soft capped defenses, then it starts to matter.

 

Additionally one level 50 IO accuracy is more than sufficient for accuracy purposes assuming you're not debuffed or fighting stuff way above your level.

 

Fighting above level all the time and getting debuffed all the time so overcapping accuracy seems sensible but point taken. As far as squeezing dps, again you can do so better by lowering recharge and end cost than by adding a third damage IO. This is exactly what I'm talking about, more damage IOs =/= dps after 2 in many if not most cases.

 

You're not wrong, but it's also highly dependent on powersets. Some have better accuracy or give more recharge or recovery, etc. Plus a specific attack may already have a short recharge and reducing it past one recharge enhancement may not be the most efficient. This is also dependent on the character level, generally the lower level the more I slot for accuracy and end redux since  all the powerset's tools aren't available.

 

If I six slot an attack while leveling, I'll usually put in 1-2 acc, 1 recharge and 1 end redux, and 2-3 damage.

[Prototech]

A person's goals heavily factor into this as well. An extra point or two in a power may not matter 99% of the time, but if the goal is to squeeze out every ounce of DPS or reach some goal like perma-hasten or soft capped defenses, then it starts to matter.

 

Additionally one level 50 IO accuracy is more than sufficient for accuracy purposes assuming you're not debuffed or fighting stuff way above your level.

 

Fighting above level all the time and getting debuffed all the time so overcapping accuracy seems sensible but point taken. As far as squeezing dps, again you can do so better by lowering recharge and end cost than by adding a third damage IO. This is exactly what I'm talking about, more damage IOs =/= dps after 2 in many if not most cases.

 

You're not wrong, but it's also highly dependent on powersets. Some have better accuracy or give more recharge or recovery, etc. Plus a specific attack may already have a short recharge and reducing it past one recharge enhancement may not be the most efficient. This is also dependent on the character level, generally the lower level the more I slot for accuracy and end redux since  all the powerset's tools aren't available.

 

If I six slot an attack while leveling, I'll usually put in 1-2 acc, 1 recharge and 1 end redux, and 2-3 damage.

 

You're not wrong either :). Agreed on all points.

 

Interestingly on weak fast recharge powers specifically recharge IOs are less interesting especially if your rotation is full, I try to skip the weak fast power unless it has important secondary effects all together.

[joyispunkrolex]

Right once sets come in it changes things completely. However so many of the recommendations and builds I see are all about slotting IOs as you level and hit 50... I haven't even looked at sets, hopefully what I've seen from others there actually ends up being the right info, so far on IOs it's been 90% wrong.

 

Most people who are slotting IOs as they level are slotting any set pieces they find if they can. Those of us who have cash to hand out to SGmates and lowbie alts (usually because we can work the market or have access to a Farming toon) definitely still prefer set pieces; Common IOs are among other things a cash sink. But the goal for everyone is to make our powers more powerful in whatever way we need. Don't just unthinkingly slot 3xDamage because somebody said they think it's a good idea. Look at what you're getting for putting in a second Recharge piece vs. an End Reduction. The numbers are right there on your screen as you slot things in. It's easy enough to tell.

 

But yeah the shorthand advice to do 3xDam, 2xAcc, 1xRecharge is mostly the result of something that happened a zillion years ago when CoH needed ED and the even-more-standard 5xDam, 1xAcc slotting was super common.

[Mr. Vee]

Are there people just slotting all basic IOs at 50? To what end? To save money? I'd be surprised if that's actually cheaper than a low end IO build in the current economy.

[Prototech]

Are there people just slotting all basic IOs at 50? To what end? To save money? I'd be surprised if that's actually cheaper than a low end IO build in the current economy.

 

I see recommendations in chat all the time about upgrading IOs to 50 when you hit 47.

[subbacultchas]

Are there people just slotting all basic IOs at 50? To what end? To save money? I'd be surprised if that's actually cheaper than a low end IO build in the current economy.

 

I see recommendations in chat all the time about upgrading IOs to 50 when you hit 47.

I do too, I even offer this advice to friends who don't know much about IOs and set bonuses.

 

I think it's coupled with another bit of advice I often see in chat, "Don't slot set IOs until 50." I get this, but with unslotters being a thing, why not craft mostly cheap IOs and a few uniques and level with them? You can unslot them later to sell or trade to an alt, and in the meantime you got the advantage of getting to use them on the come-up. 

[jubakumbi]

Are there people just slotting all basic IOs at 50? To what end? To save money? I'd be surprised if that's actually cheaper than a low end IO build in the current economy.

 

*Raises hand*

 

I don't _plan_ it that way all the time or anything, but it happens/happened often.

I just make what I have and use it for the most part until 50.

If I get lucky and I get a set drop that works, I might build it, like a LoTG or something.

 

The enemies 1-50 IMO are cake with 1 Acc, 3 Dam, 0-1 End Red, 0-2 Recharge for damage powers, IME.

 

When you play many characters, level fast, etc. like I do, then I just don't bother to min/max each power slotting until I know the character will even get played past 40+.

 

I just do not see the need to min/max each level, but to each thier own.

Just plain old IOs/SOs at 50 will do just fine for the content, IME.

[joyispunkrolex]

Are there people just slotting all basic IOs at 50? To what end? To save money? I'd be surprised if that's actually cheaper than a low end IO build in the current economy.

 

Considering that most 50 Common IO recipes cost about 75k - 110k to buy and about that much to craft, there's no earthly way that it's cheaper to slot common IOs than to get on the market and pick up Air Bursts, Cleaving Blows and Serendipities. If you're afraid to even buy set IO pieces and you're still crafting commons, it's only going to cost you extra.

 

Also, to everybody with Inf-earning problems: rare salvage will usually get you 500k inf and crafting an uncommon Defense, Heal, EndMod or Resist Damage Set IO, then hitting it with Enhancement Converters (do the set type conversion, not the rarity conversion) will very often lead to something that's worth north of 3M inf. As a rule of thumb, 2M inf will get enough common IOs and set pieces to get a level 22 toon decked out in effective enhancements. Maybe less for a Controller or Defenders.

[hastened]

There are a lot of easy ways to make money in the Auction House, so for all my characters who make it past level 10 or so I first plan out an approximate level 50 build in Pine's, then fill all my slots with attuned enhancements based on that plan, usually starting with ATOs since they can be slotted at 10 and most builds want one or both sets.  I usually don't worry about specific slot ordering, just power ordering and final number of slots in each power, then as I level up I put slots towards the final configuration based on what I feel needs the most boost at any given time.  I then buy the 2 new attuned enhancements I need.

 

Remember, endurance reducers only matter if you have endurance problems, accuracy caps quickly if you have any source of +ToHit, and recharge only matters if it can affect the % uptime of a higher damage per activation second power in your chain.  +Damage is almost always good though, which makes 3x enhancers for that not a bad rule of thumb if you don't want to number crunch it out.  If you do want to number crunch it out, you will usually want to be building based on set bonuses, not enhancement values, so it becomes a lot less relevant.

[Mr. Vee]

At this point the only reason I'm not slotting all attuned set IOs as I level is that I'm too busy playing to make the builds and there's no mobile version of pine's. So from my point of view lower level regular iOS are a waste of money but one I'm OK with because it's not a lot and I'm lazy. But regular IOs at fifty seems like a colossal waste of both time and money chasing a 'cheap' build. Was glad to see joyispunkrolex confirm that.

 

Now if only someone will make a mobile builder I can never craft another regular IO other than my hasten recharges and swift runs etc.

[Fedifensor]

Considering that most 50 Common IO recipes cost about 75k - 110k to buy and about that much to craft, there's no earthly way that it's cheaper to slot common IOs than to get on the market and pick up Air Bursts, Cleaving Blows and Serendipities. If you're afraid to even buy set IO pieces and you're still crafting commons, it's only going to cost you extra.

Because the market converts IOs of any level, it’s often cheaper to buy the IO directly than to buy the recipe and then craft it.  Furthermore, since you can get attuned IOs when you buy from the market at no added charge, it’s easier to slot IOs that will level with you all the way to 50 (or the max level of the IO), then use your alternate build to create something that will be optimized for level 50 play.

 

Also, to everybody with Inf-earning problems: rare salvage will usually get you 500k inf and crafting an uncommon Defense, Heal, EndMod or Resist Damage Set IO, then hitting it with Enhancement Converters (do the set type conversion, not the rarity conversion) will very often lead to something that's worth north of 3M inf. As a rule of thumb, 2M inf will get enough common IOs and set pieces to get a level 22 toon decked out in effective enhancements. Maybe less for a Controller or Defenders.

While true, know that there is luck involved and you could find yourself out a few million from a series of bad flips.  If you’re low on cash, be wary of flipping - a bad run could wipe you out.

[jubakumbi]

While true, know that there is luck involved and you could find yourself out a few million from a series of bad flips.  If you’re low on cash, be wary of flipping - a bad run could wipe you out.

 

This is also, lest we forget, 'playing a ehole separate game'. :)

 

Nothing wring with it, but that is not why I play CoH, to be super-shopper, I play to be a Super. :)

 

So I just use what I have without worrying over 'buying is cheaper than building' etc., as I want to just kill more pixels, not be a mini stockbroker.

 

So yeah, there are those of us that just use 'plain' IOs, and buy the recipes from the crafting table, because it's easy and quick and the game gives us enough resources to do it w/o having to play the market game.

 

IMO, if I have Inf, then I am doing something wrong, because there is someplace I could spend it to get better or to pass to another character so they can, etc.

 

Just a few pennies from the more casual min/maxer.

[hastened]

Is very true that the market is its own thing, and not everyone is going to want to play in it.  My wife doesn't like marketing or build planning, so she lets me handle those aspects so she can get to the smashing and being heroic.

 

Personally, I don't really like the shopping aspect, I more tolerate.  I do like the build planning and fitting all the different pieces together, however.  I actually like the changes homecoming made vs. live quite a bit in this regard, since while I marketeered on live too so I could have whatever I wanted in terms of enhancements, it was a lot more work to, say, outfit a permadom.  Here, you can get the inf for it in an hour of time spread over a day or two, while on live it took probably ten times as long at least.

[Fedifensor]

So I just use what I have without worrying over 'buying is cheaper than building' etc., as I want to just kill more pixels, not be a mini stockbroker.

 

So yeah, there are those of us that just use 'plain' IOs, and buy the recipes from the crafting table, because it's easy and quick and the game gives us enough resources to do it w/o having to play the market game.

 

IMO, if I have Inf, then I am doing something wrong, because there is someplace I could spend it to get better or to pass to another character so they can, etc.

Even before I started trying to make money at the market, I chose to use set IOs rather than generics, because it was the cheaper option.  I was getting the cheapest set pieces I could without worrying about set bonuses, and they were often cheaper than getting the generic IOs.  For example, I would buy 4 different Acc/Dam IOs to put into a single attack power, and I bought those IO’s pre-attuned for about 100k each.  Prices have inflated since then, but even now I could get them from “undesirable” sets for 250k or less if I don’t want instant gratification when placing the bid.  I did this with my main attack power for one character at level 15, by simply dumping recipes and salvage I wasn’t using onto the market at whatever price the market would pay.  Two pieces of rare salvage (selling for 900k each) paid for IOs on my entire build at the time.

 

Each Acc/Dmg IO is roughly 2/3rd the value of an equivalent level generic IO in each category, so those 4 Acc/Dmg were giving the equivalent of 2 2/3 Acc and 2 2/3 Dmg...it’s a better deal than generics.  They’re also attuned, so instead of using dropped trainings until 12, level 15 IOs until 22, and level 25+ IOs after that, I just bought attuned set IOs starting as early as level 7 (for sets available at level 10) and kept the same ones in my build the whole time instead of reslotting later.  It’s a lot cheaper in the long run, and doesn’t take a lot of time in the Auction House.  Sell every recipe and salvage for whatever the market pays you, place reasonable bids for the set IOs you want, and give it a bit of time (an hour or two should suffice during peak play times) for the orders to fill.

 

The triple IOs are also good deals, being about 1/2 the value of an equivalent IO in each category.  Slot 3 Acc/Dmg/Rchg, and you have the equivalent of 1 1/2 IOs in each category - that’s 4.5 IOs worth of power in 3 slots.

 

That’s my recommendation for casual min-maxing - cheap set IOs, don’t worry about set bonuses, sell everything else on the market as soon as you get it.  You can pop up the auction house with /ah in any zone besides a base, so a quick sell off is faster than going back to a vendor to sell off excess inventory, and you’ll usually get more Influence that way.

[Prototech]

At this point the only reason I'm not slotting all attuned set IOs as I level is that I'm too busy playing to make the builds and there's no mobile version of pine's. So from my point of view lower level regular iOS are a waste of money but one I'm OK with because it's not a lot and I'm lazy. But regular IOs at fifty seems like a colossal waste of both time and money chasing a 'cheap' build. Was glad to see joyispunkrolex confirm that.

 

Now if only someone will make a mobile builder I can never craft another regular IO other than my hasten recharges and swift runs etc.

 

25s are super cheap and easy to craft.. so essentially those in the know are confirming slot cheap stuff until fifty then go sets... 50s IOs are pointless

[Machariel]

Now that the market will freely hand out Attuned IOs, I don't see any reason to build a character with anything else - every time you can afford a single attuned IO, why not purchase and slot it?

[jubakumbi]

That’s my recommendation for casual min-maxing - cheap set IOs, don’t worry about set bonuses, sell everything else on the market as soon as you get it.  You can pop up the auction house with /ah in any zone besides a base, so a quick sell off is faster than going back to a vendor to sell off excess inventory, and you’ll usually get more Influence that way.

 

Sure, if I find them I craft appropriate sets for bonuses.

While leveling, and realy in general, I want to type '/ah' as few times as I can. :)

 

Played plenty, tricked out plenty of characters back in the day.

I am one of those players that would never look at an MMO market interface again if I could. :)

I would be fine and happy with all recipes being in the workbench and having to get components through focused hunting, for example.

I would be fine and happy with all enhancements just dropping, so you knew to farm X to get Y IO even.

 

To re-iterate as well, I just don't _care_ how much inf I spend on doing these things easily w/o have to make a list, leave the base, buy the things and come home to cook...that's just not my thing...I build what I have and use it, making an accounting task in the middle of playtime is not my thing...

After playing the game, I get more stuff and I can make more things, repeat.

It's all just ephemeral points in pretendy funtime.

 

If I play a character to 50 and I really like it, then I will sit down for a weekend and make a 'final' build.

Did that for a half a dozen characters on Live after years of playing, had 30+ 50s.

 

The more sublte point I guess I am trying to make is that while interesting to a degree, gaining that extra % to feel uber just took me a weekend I could have been killing pixels...or leveling the next idea...

[Without_Pause]

Considering that most 50 Common IO recipes cost about 75k - 110k to buy and about that much to craft, there's no earthly way that it's cheaper to slot common IOs than to get on the market and pick up Air Bursts, Cleaving Blows and Serendipities.

 

Crafting badges can remove the need for the recipe, and I believe the badge gives a discount on the crafting cost as well. Since this can be done to farm the market, it isn't crazy to do it with level 50 commons. I certainly did it on my way to have near 2 billion on multiple characters on live.

[wjrasmussen]

Hi community!

 

So I've been making assumptions around IOs based on in game chat and these forums. Now that I've been back for a bit and experimented with the game+pines it seems to me that people have strange ideas around IOs. It's like the most common approach is highly theoretical and doesn't take into account realistic or economic scenarios while leveling. To summarize my own thoughts before getting into it.

 

1. Just get the lowest level IOs that are of negligible cost to you around level 22-30 (for me this is level 25 IOs)

2. Don't bother upgrading until end game with plenty of inf and even go straight to sets if you can

3. slotting more than 2 of any kind of IO seems like intense diminishing returns, more than 3 is almost always stupid

 

When stacking IOs, whether you have level 25 or 50 IOs seems almost negligible in scale. Especially if you have to spend time gathering inf. This is especially true for low values like your first attack or willpower minor defenses.

 

Perfect example is High Pain tolerance:

3 level 25 IOs = total of 8.68% res

3 level 50 IOs = total of 8.91% res

 

Here is the kicker

2 level 25 IOs = total of 7.79% res

 

You barely gain 1% by going from 2 25s to 3 50s!!!!

 

This goes against so many of the recommendations I've been seeing, seems a lot of people have no clue and so many of the builds I see posted are nuts. Please jump in and educate me here If I'm missing something.

 

Other great example: ANY damage power but let's use Knockout Blow from SS

148 base damage

2 25 damage IOs = 243 dmg

3 50 damage IOs = 295 dmg

 

50 damage is nothing to sneeze at in this case BUT, what about the free slot I get? I can slot 6 total and would much rather have 2 recharge and 2 accuracy for this heavy hitting power. Hitting twice as often and more accurately is way more valuable than the 50 damage per hit.

 

Am I crazy here? Do most people just not get it or do I not get it?

what is your goal here?  What are you hoping to achieve with your post?

[Fedifensor]

To re-iterate as well, I just don't _care_ how much inf I spend on doing these things easily w/o have to make a list, leave the base, buy the things and come home to cook...that's just not my thing...I build what I have and use it, making an accounting task in the middle of playtime is not my thing...

After playing the game, I get more stuff and I can make more things, repeat.

It's all just ephemeral points in pretendy funtime.

 

If I play a character to 50 and I really like it, then I will sit down for a weekend and make a 'final' build.

Did that for a half a dozen characters on Live after years of playing, had 30+ 50s.

 

The more sublte point I guess I am trying to make is that while interesting to a degree, gaining that extra % to feel uber just took me a weekend I could have been killing pixels...or leveling the next idea...

It sounds like this thread won’t hold any further interest for you, then...at least not until you hit level 50 and want to dig deeper.  It’s all about having fun, so if that works for you, great!