Can you explain the effects of multiple Achilles' Heel debuff procs?

[RelativeQuanta]

43 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

I have no doubt that the first Achilles Heel proc that you have in a group leads to a big gain in group DPS.  However, if you're analyzing it for its results in a group, you have to weight the chance that other people are also running the same proc, and it does not stack.  It's a popular proc!  This clearly mitigates its power, in probably unquantifiable ways since it's hard to know how many people will be packing it.

True, but check out the up-time of the proc in my test.  None of them are at 100% and most hover in the 40-70% range.  It would take two people with the ridiculous slotting I'm testing here to have a hope of saturating the bonus.  

[aethereal]

8 hours ago, RelativeQuanta said:

True, but check out the up-time of the proc in my test.  None of them are at 100% and most hover in the 40-70% range.  It would take two people with the ridiculous slotting I'm testing here to have a hope of saturating the bonus.  

But that just means that the loss isn't literally "the entire proc is completely wasted." If the proc is conflicting 70% of the time, that reduces its value by a little more than a factor of three.

 

I think that the resistance procs are the prime example of something that looks better on paper than it plays.  The combination of "doesn't take effect during the opening salvo," "best on big teams which don't really need help on damage output anyway," "popular and non-stacking," and "best on rare big opponents" is pretty brutal.  But feel free to test it out and see if at the end of the day you feel a difference with them.

[RelativeQuanta]

10 hours ago, aethereal said:

But that just means that the loss isn't literally "the entire proc is completely wasted." If the proc is conflicting 70% of the time, that reduces its value by a little more than a factor of three.

 

I think that the resistance procs are the prime example of something that looks better on paper than it plays.  The combination of "doesn't take effect during the opening salvo," "best on big teams which don't really need help on damage output anyway," "popular and non-stacking," and "best on rare big opponents" is pretty brutal.  But feel free to test it out and see if at the end of the day you feel a difference with them.

Well, I am and I did.  I'm currently leveling the build I tested and I've already done the math on it.  The math basically shows that you won't really observe a difference between an extra minor damage proc vs an extra achilles' heel.  However, if you're teamed, it should make a much larger difference to have the extra Achilles' heel procs.

 

The argument on commonality of Achilles' Heel reducing the value of multislotting for teams doesn't make sense.  I've been the only person on this thread that suggesting that running Achilles' Heel on more than one power is potentially a good thing.  This suggests that others don't tend to carry more than one and that's among people who put a lot more time into their builds than the average player.  So I conclude that you can safely expect multislotting Achilles' Heel -Res to greatly benefit your median team.

[tidge]

Is the obsession with Achille's Heel due to some particular -Def primary or secondary? I've been long advocating for the Annilation %-Res in multiple AoE powers, specifically for MMs. Robotics would get a bum rap (pre rework), but stacking %-Resistance made a hide difference in x8 clear times... But MMs are not like solo play.

 

Writing for myself, after I saw the huge improvement in map clear times with the MM, plus the ability to chew through GMs (-Regen), I reworked several Rad ATs (mostly support classes) to pile up that Achille's piece... and the results were disappointing.

 

My advice remains: if you want a resistance debuff, take a reliable one from a power pool. Weaken Resolve is tailor made for this, and it accepts the Achille's Heel set, and it demonstrates (via animation) that you are applying a debuff to the target.

[RelativeQuanta]

58 minutes ago, tidge said:

Is the obsession with Achille's Heel due to some particular -Def primary or secondary?

That's a bit uncalled for.

 

No.  Like I said in my very first post in this thread, I found the question interesting.  This entire thread has been in the context of a Rad/Rad sentinel.  The established wisdom is "just use one" and I wanted to see if that held up.  It doesn't, at least not in the way implied.

[shortguy on indom]

The simulation thing is vcool.  Resident math junkie, but only concerned with the 'limits' of things to have a goal to shoot for is all.

This is an interesting thread.  Tried to open the git link, but do not know how to read the 'python' file to see the calcs.  Bummer.

If you may be referring to me running just one... I am by no means an expert in building toons, and never advise anyone to do anything in their builds.

Run just one of these -Res because I tend to build things toward a goal:  recharge build; toggle build; end-game build.  My builds change constantly and would be considered average at best.  Like to know what works, but for me just playing slowly, watching some combat attributes (to know when to step away) has become more fun.

Carry-on....hope to see more threads like these!

 

 

 

 

[RelativeQuanta]

@shortguy on indom Thanks!  I'm afraid I didn't make it very user friendly.  The calculations are all in HeroData.py if that helps.  Feel free to ask any questions about it and I'll try to help.

[shortguy on indom]

On 3/9/2024 at 8:53 PM, RelativeQuanta said:

Notes:

1. RelativeQuanta/CityOfHeroes-Damage-Sim: A python damage simulator for City of Heroes (github.com) if anyone wants to take a look at how I did everything

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