Can you explain the effects of multiple Achilles' Heel debuff procs?

[DoctorDitko]

To a slow, old, ex-sorcerer?

 

Playing a Rad/Rad Sentinel, and enjoying it more than I expected, but it seems as though I can slot just about every power with one of these suckers. Is that at all wise? The description says it will trigger roughly 3.5 times per minute. Is that per power, per proc, or something else?

 

Apologies if this is a dumb question, but I've been searching this forum, the wiki, and the Internet at large and coming up empty.

[Mjolnerd]

There's a guide on procs per minute (PPM) here: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/5290-procs-per-minute-ppm-information-guide/#comment-45849

[Yomo Kimyata]

It does not stack, not even from multiple casters, but it resets the duration.

[twozerofoxtrot]

1 hour ago, DoctorDitko said:

Is that at all wise?

 

Not really.

 

You've got the good answers above. I'll add that putting this in one frequently used ST power is usually gravy, and in your specific case maybe putting another one in Neutron Bomb, and that'll do ya. 

[Crysis]

AFAIK, you can’t stack it, but the -RES debuff from Achilles does stack with Annihilation -RES debuff, and you’ll find many builds posted that slots both procs, although typically in different powers.  

 

And once upon a time, Achilles used this strange mechanic that sort of granted the target a temporary power that gave it the resistance debuff, meaning the -RES value wasn’t diminished via scaling thru the Purple Patch.  But now it scales based on the targets level relative to the caster.  Little bit of game change lore there, but just realize that the -RES impact from both DO stack.

[tidge]

Fast cycling ST attacks (e.g. the T1, T2) are usually not a a good place to invest a slot in any (from outside a set that was going to be slotted anyway) %proc; the rates are generally poor enough that it won't speed up defeats (of those single targets). There are a few different corners to explore however:

• Sometimes the ST 'attack' is something like a control or debuff that by itself does no/little damage, adding %damage can help non-DPS characters. Slows. Holds and raw Defense Debuffs are the ones I usually consider for %damage. Less so for immobilizes, fears.
• %-Resistance isn't as good as a reliable Resistance debuff, but in the case of an actual damaging attack for a low-damage scale AT: It is possible that the debuff will help reduce the defeat times against some bosses. (Resistance resists resistible resistance debuffs)
• The duration of %effects is rather short. Resistance debuffs generally help teammates more than the caster. %status effects are in my experience  only shine in cases like the +2 mag Hold sometimes catching a boss on the first application, or %contagious confusion trigger a spawn to alpha strike itself.

As others have written: The length of an application of the %effect will extend from multiple applications, but the effect will not stack with itself.

[UltraAlt]

11 hours ago, DoctorDitko said:

Playing a Rad/Rad Sentinel, and enjoying it more than I expected, but it seems as though I can slot just about every power with one of these suckers. Is that at all wise? The description says it will trigger roughly 3.5 times per minute. Is that per power, per proc, or something else?

 

/e sigh

 

Use it, but don't over use it. I wouldn't slot it in any more than 3 powers

A fast recharge low damage power, an AoE, and maybe a PBAoE (ground zero) ... but never in a high damage power.

You can slot debuff enhancements and they go a long way as well. 

 

 

 

[Uun]

On my Rad/Rad sentinel I have it slotted in Irradiate. It has a 20 second recharge and I have no recharge reduction slotted, maximizing the chance to proc (I also have 3 dmg procs slotted in that power). 

[Yomo Kimyata]

The only problem with "overusing" AH proc is that you are wasting slots that you could potentially use for something else.  I mean a constant -20% resistance on all enemies is a pretty great debuff, but why use more than you need?

 

That said, I generally like using it (and most -res procs) in something that has a pretty significant chance of activating.  For a rad/rad sentinel, I'd certainly put it in Ground Zero, and probably one in Irradiate or Neutron Bomb or Atomic Blast (more if you really want).  

[DoctorDitko]

Thanks, all!

I was mainly concerned that power #1 proccing would prevent power #2 from going off.

It look like it won't, but also won't stack, which works for me.

Again, many thanks for the edumication. Some day, I'll figure out this ~18-year-old game.

(That I've been playing for ~10 of those years!)

 

[Scientist]

For Radiation attacks, my suggestion is to put one in the Rad snipe.  The recharge is about right to max the chance of it going off, and it still allows for 5-slotting the Manticore Snipe set, which is one of the few sets with a good recharge bonus AND ranged defense.  Put the Manticore proc in and it hits pretty hard, and it cycles within the 10 second Achilles proc duration with some decent global recharge.  Hopefully a Sentinal gets the snipe?  

[aethereal]

Nope, sentinels do not get snipes.

[RelativeQuanta]

Sorry to necro such an old post, but this is a really interesting question. 

1. Does anyone know how long Achilles' Heel -Res proc lasts once it lands? 
2. Does it benefit the attack it lands with or just subsequent attacks (I'm guessing the latter)

 I'd guess that the -20% resist debuff is more valuable than a 71.75 damage proc until you can keep it up consistently on your target(s) and I'm also guessing it needs to be in more than one power to achieve.

[ZekeStenzland]

City of Data has all the actual technical details to pretty much every power, enhancement and effect in the game. You should check it out. See the Tools forum for a direct link to it. 
 

And…

 

1. Duration is 10 seconds
2. CoD doesn’t say. Although powers that deal delayed damage during the 10s window would be definitely be affected.
   

 

[MoonSheep]

On 2/6/2023 at 2:20 AM, Mjolnerd said:

There's a guide on procs per minute (PPM) here: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/5290-procs-per-minute-ppm-information-guide/#comment-45849

 

jeez.. what a chaotic read

[DoctorDitko]

To be fair, it's a chaotic subject!

 

[KITANYA]

On 2/6/2023 at 2:48 AM, DoctorDitko said:

To a slow, old, ex-sorcerer?

 

Playing a Rad/Rad Sentinel, and enjoying it more than I expected, but it seems as though I can slot just about every power with one of these suckers. Is that at all wise? The description says it will trigger roughly 3.5 times per minute. Is that per power, per proc, or something else?

 

Apologies if this is a dumb question, but I've been searching this forum, the wiki, and the Internet at large and coming up empty.

 

I have it in only Irradiate and the Neutron Bomb.

 

 

[RelativeQuanta]

Ok so, this question interested me enough to simulate it in python.

 

TL; DR: It depends on your build, but it appears that slotting Achilles' Heel -Res everywhere you can is slightly better than slotting a minor damage proc (3.5 ppm, 71.15 dmg) in the same place (except for one Achilles' Heel) for you personally and absolutely better if you're grouped against even con enemies.  However, due to "double dip" penalty against -Res that drops the duration AND the magnitude, minor damage proc wins against +4 enemies.  In both cases, the difference in performance is unlikely to be noticeable for a solo player.  -Res is certainly better when teamed.  (See post on page 2 for details)

 

Edit: found and fixed proc rate calculation for Electron Haze.  Numbers are updated

Edit 2: Moving later conclusion to TL; DR here.

 

The Test Build

See attached.  It's setup to make use of lots of procs.  The Analyze Weakness in Ground Zero is a placeholder for Achilles' Heel since Mids' won't let me place it but it *is* allowed in game.

 

The Simulation

• Uses proc formula from https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Procs_Per_Minute
• Powers don't miss
• Ignoring sentinel opportunity for simplicity 
• Powers don't use endurance
• Damage doesn't have a type
• minor_dmg is used as a placeholder for any 3.5 ppm, 71.15 damage proc.  I used Mid's to ensure the number of minor_dmg procs in each power is actually possible
• epic_dmg is a placeholder for any epic proc (4.5 ppm, 107.1 damage)
• Power priority is set in descending order of DPA: DPA = min(power.max_targets, mobs_in_arena) * [sum(proc_damage * proc_chance) + power_damage] / cast_time
• Four scenarios per test build:
  • Single Mob with 10,000 health, resistance debuffs DO NOT affect the applying power
  • Single Mob with 10,000 health, resistance debuffs DO affect the applying power
  • 20 Mobs with 2,000 health each, resistance debuffs DO NOT affect the applying power
  • 20 Mobs with 2,000 health each, resistance debuffs DO affect the applying power
• In multi-mob sims:
  •  mobs are always grouped perfectly
  • the hero targets one the same mob until it's dead then targets a random other mob
  • the targeted mob is always hit by AoE attacks and a random max_targets - 1 other mobs are hit (this includes PBAoE attacks right now!)
  • Power priority is re-evaluated as mobs die

Build Proc Chances Per Power

Irradiate: 26.44%
Cosmic Burst:  45.87%
Electron Haze:  10.25% 57.30%
Proton Stream: 79.74% (3.5 ppm), 90% (4.5 ppm) 
Atomic Blast: 90% 
Ground Zero: 90% 
Fire Sword Circle:  90% 
Cremate: 37.99% (3.5 ppm), 48.84% (4.5 ppm)

 

Trial 1:

x-ray beam: no procs
Irradiate: achilles_heel 
Cosmic Burst:  achilles_heel
Electron Haze:  achilles_heel, minor_dmg 
Proton Stream: achilles_heel, epic_dmg, minor_dmg, minor_dmg
Atomic Blast:  achilles_heel, epic_dmg
Ground Zero: achilles_heel, minor_dmg, minor_dmg, minor_dmg
Fire Sword Circle: minor_dmg, minor_dmg, minor_dmg, FotG 
Cremate: epic_dmg, minor_dmg

1. 100 trials of a single Mob with 10,000 health, resistance debuffs DO NOT affect the applying power
   1. Average mob defeat time 44.77s 44.68s
   2. Mob average lifetime debuffed with Achilles' Heel 85.38% 85.91%
   3. Mob average lifetime debuffed with Fury of the Gladiator 30.41% 31.71%
2. 100 trials of a single Mob with 10,000 health, resistance debuffs DO affect the applying power
   1. Average mob defeat time 44.75s 44.61s
   2. Mob average lifetime debuffed with Achilles' Heel 87.47% 86.30%
   3. Mob average lifetime debuffed with Fury of the Gladiator 30.33% 31.86%
3. 100 trials of 20 mobs with 2,000 health each, resistance debuffs DO NOT affect the applying power
   1. Average over all mob defeat times 42.53s 40.07s
   2. Average over all mob lifetimes debuffed with Achilles' Heel 44.50% 57.83%
   3. Average over all mob lifetimes debuffed with Fury of the Gladiator 18.09% 18.64%
4. 100 trials of 20 mobs with 2,000 health each, resistance debuffs DO affect the applying power
   1. Average over all mob defeat times 42.45s 39.11s
   2. Average over all mob lifetimes debuffed with Achilles' Heel 45.08% 60.03%
   3. Average over all mob lifetimes debuffed with Fury of the Gladiator 18.89% 18.63%

Trial 2

x-ray beam: no procs
Irradiate: minor_dmg
Cosmic Burst:  minor_dmg
Electron Haze:  minor_dmg, minor_dmg 
Proton Stream: minor_dmg, epic_dmg, minor_dmg, minor_dmg
Atomic Blast:  minor_dmg, epic_dmg
Ground Zero: achilles_heel, minor_dmg, minor_dmg, minor_dmg
Fire Sword Circle: minor_dmg, minor_dmg, minor_dmg, FotG 
Cremate: epic_dmg, minor_dmg

1. 100 trials of a single Mob with 10,000 health, resistance debuffs DO NOT affect the applying power
   1. Average mob defeat time 48.00s 48.21s
   2. Mob average lifetime debuffed with Achilles' Heel 1.37% 1.61%
   3. Mob average lifetime debuffed with Fury of the Gladiator 33.28% 31.28%
2. 100 trials of a single Mob with 10,000 health, resistance debuffs DO affect the applying power
   1. Average mob defeat time 48.52s 48.11s
   2. Mob average lifetime debuffed with Achilles' Heel 2.07% 2.28%
   3. Mob average lifetime debuffed with Fury of the Gladiator 32.12% 31.54%
3. 100 trials of 20 mobs with 2,000 health each, resistance debuffs DO NOT affect the applying power
   1. Average over all mob defeat times 41.48s 37.10s
   2. Average over all mob lifetimes debuffed with Achilles' Heel 19.16% 23.86%
   3. Average over all mob lifetimes debuffed with Fury of the Gladiator 18.16% 17.63%
4. 100 trials of 20 mobs with 2,000 health each, resistance debuffs DO affect the applying power
   1. Average over all mob defeat times 41.60s 36.58s
   2. Average over all mob lifetimes debuffed with Achilles' Heel 18.68% 26.56%
   3. Average over all mob lifetimes debuffed with Fury of the Gladiator 18.77% 18.24%

 

 

I ran more trials, but this is already pretty wordy and I think the conclusion is pretty clear.

 

Conclusion

1. Slotting multiple Achilles' Heel debuffs does outperform multiple minor damage procs in single target scenarios and high debuff uptime means a huge group damage bonus 
2. The multi-target simulation is likely a wash.  Using minor_dmg instead looks a bit better, but my code allows PBAoEs to always hit the targeted mob which does not match live.  The high uptime for Achilles' Heel in this scenario comes from Ground Zero's huge 30 target cap.  Party damage is not going to be enhanced as much.  Edit: Fixing the proc rate on electron haze separated this build in the multi-target scenario enough that I'd say it may actually be better
3. I haven't directly investigated what the standard error on the mean is for each of the values I've reported, but it is relatively large in this highly idealized simulation and I expect people will have trouble seeing a difference in personal damage on live.

Final Notes:

1. I'll probably post the code and jupyter notebook in Github later so people can pick it apart and point out any glaring errors I made
2. Electron Haze has an unusually low proc rate according to my sim, so I'm going to double check it's calculated correctly Fixed
3. I'm happy to try other proc configurations if people find this interesting

Quantum Cascade - Sentinel (Radiation Blast - Radiation Armor).mbd

Edited March 10 by RelativeQuanta
Moving conclusion from final simulation to TL;DR here

[tidge]

13 hours ago, RelativeQuanta said:

Conclusion

1. Slotting multiple Achilles' Heel debuffs does outperform multiple minor damage procs in single target scenarios and high debuff uptime means a huge group damage bonus 

 

 

I deeply appreciate the approach, but I'm pretty sure this conclusion is what has been written every time this comes up. That is:

 

1) %-Resistance is a multiplier for groups (doesn't really need to be stacked in duration)

2) %-Resistance can help against sacks of HP, provided they aren't resisting the resistance debuff and are being hit while the %-Resistance is affecting them.

 

Ultimately it comes down to "how many fewer attacks have to be made against a (spawn of) enemies." Ignoring ToHit: One one side of the equation the first order concern is solo/party DPS (and also number of targets) and on the other side is enemy Health/Resistance.

[RelativeQuanta]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

 

I deeply appreciate the approach, but I'm pretty sure this conclusion is what has been written every time this comes up. That is:

 

1) %-Resistance is a multiplier for groups (doesn't really need to be stacked in duration)

2) %-Resistance can help against sacks of HP, provided they aren't resisting the resistance debuff and are being hit while the %-Resistance is affecting them.

 

Ultimately it comes down to "how many fewer attacks have to be made against a (spawn of) enemies." Ignoring ToHit: One one side of the equation the first order concern is solo/party DPS (and also number of targets) and on the other side is enemy Health/Resistance.

 

I'm not sure how my result isn't new information, my answer to the question

On 2/5/2023 at 7:48 PM, DoctorDitko said:

I can slot just about every power with one of these suckers. Is that at all wise?

is: Yes, slot Achilles' Heel -Res proc in all your powers, your personal damage will be higher and your team's damage will be much higher.

 

No one had actually said the italicized bit and the answers given said you shouldn't use more than one.

 

My test ignored To-Hit because the procs in my comparison only affect the "other side" of enemy Health/Resistance. 

 

[tidge]

Solo: "damage taken" may be higher, but if it still takes the same number of attacks to defeat a spawn, then there is no practical benefit to try to apply %-Resistance.

 

There is another subtle effect that generally favors IMO %damage for solo players: %damage can be off-brand relative to the damage types done by the inherent attacks. -10% Resistance against an enemy with high inherent resistance to a type of damage that is in the player's attacks is already a sort of losing proposition... so go ahead and try to have the %damage be a different type altogether.

[RelativeQuanta]

26 minutes ago, tidge said:

Solo: "damage taken" may be higher, but if it still takes the same number of attacks to defeat a spawn, then there is no practical benefit to try to apply %-Resistance.

Yeah, but we're talking about averages here.  This statement is also true of damage procs.

 

29 minutes ago, tidge said:

There is another subtle effect that generally favors IMO %damage for solo players: %damage can be off-brand relative to the damage types done by the inherent attacks. -10% Resistance against an enemy with high inherent resistance to a type of damage that is in the player's attacks is already a sort of losing proposition... so go ahead and try to have the %damage be a different type altogether.

Interesting, but I don't think this changes my general statement for two reasons:

1. Radiation Blast deals energy damage which isn't commonly resisted and on the build I tested with the powers that have high proc chances had multiple damage procs in addition to the -Res (proton stream, ground zero).  Replacing the -Res on those would mean subbing in a much more commonly resisted smashing or lethal damage proc.
2. The math on the resistance calculation is still working in favor of the -Res.  For example, an enemy with 50% energy resistance and the -20% Res proc is now at 30% damage resistance, this means the -Res increases your base energy damage by (1 - 70/50) * 100 = 40%!  It would take some rather unique circumstances for a minor damage proc to beat that level of increase.

 

Though, I will say that this discussion made me realize I coded the stacking of Fury of the Gladiator and Achilles' Heel incorrectly...  fix coming shortly...

[tidge]

Sticking with solo play for this post...

 

A typical level 50 %damage is doing almost 72 points of damage. Some do more.

 

Some fraction of that will be resisted, but that damage will be in addition to whatever the inherent (perhaps enhanced) damage is being done by the power...

 

So the mathematical exercise is to see at what point it is better to do slightly more damage because resistances are now slightly lower (and it is rarely 10%, because resistance resists resistable resistance debuffs) than it is to just drop an extra 72 points of damage on a critter.

 

A resistance debuff, by itself, won't ever defeat a critter AFAIK... so %damage starts out with an advantage. For large spawns of even con critters, that extra %damage can drop enough of them with one hit that this inherent advantage is magnified. It is against the survivors of the initial attack that the %-Resistance comes into play.

 

So let's say some STattack reliably does 72 damage that is resisted at 50%. With a hypothetical %proc of same damage type, that would be 2*72*.50=72 points of damage. With an eternally restacking %-Resistance, the same attack is doing (initially) 36 points of damage and then a theoretical maximum of 1.1*36=40 points of damage.

 

Obviously I have simplified things, but if the enemy had 800 HP, and no attack missed, and all other things being equal, the %damage takes fewer attacks. This simple exercise should point players to the general circumstances where %-Resistance can allow them to do better that %damage... Which I have found to align with the circumstances I posted above. There is no precise best answer, because there will be too many variables in builds and enemy groups.

[RelativeQuanta]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

So the mathematical exercise is to see at what point it is better to do slightly more damage because resistances are now slightly lower (and it is rarely 10%, because resistance resists resistable resistance debuffs) than it is to just drop an extra 72 points of damage on a critter.

1. Achilles' Heel -Res is a -20% debuff: Power 'Achilles' Heel: Chance for Resistance Debuff' (Boosts.Attuned_Achilles_Heel_C.Attuned_Achilles_Heel_C) (uberguy.net)
2. Unless I'm mistaken, only AVs and giant monsters have resist debuff resistance

1 hour ago, tidge said:

A resistance debuff, by itself, won't ever defeat a critter AFAIK... so %damage starts out with an advantage

Every single resistance debuff I tested is attached to a damage power.

 

1 hour ago, tidge said:

So let's say some STattack reliably does 72 damage that is resisted at 50%. With a hypothetical %proc of same damage type, that would be 2*72*.50=72 points of damage. With an eternally restacking %-Resistance, the same attack is doing (initially) 36 points of damage and then a theoretical maximum of 1.1*36=40 points of damage.

1. This example falls short of the actual hero build I tested with.  Most damage powers had a proc AND Achilles' Heel so a minor damage proc was nowhere near half the damage of an attack
2. This ignores the 10s duration of the debuff.  Every follow-up power + any procs they have will deal increased damage for 10 seconds, guaranteed.  This makes the -Res proc objectively better if you can slot it in a single power vs another damage proc in that one power.  The whole question the experiment is answering has to do with the fact Achilles' Heel doesn't stack, so any overlap in proc application is "wasted".  The results show that even with "wasted" applications, it still comes out ahead of a minor damage proc. 

 

 

Edit:  I fixed the bug in FotG and Achilles' Heel -Res stacking, it didn't change the result.

Edited March 7 by RelativeQuanta
Fixed the error in stacking FotG and Achilles' Heel

[Doomguide2005]

All critter damage resistances act as resistance to resistance debuffs vs that damage type.  So no afaik any critter can, depending on their damage resistances, resist any resistance debuffs acting against that damage resistance type not just AVs and GMs.  That's why in, for example, Hard Mode it's beneficial for any AT to hit 100% damage resistance.  That way even a Scrapper or other AT can resist all of a incoming debuff meaning no matter how large the attackers resistance debuff their resistance to that damage will be capped at 75% not 75 minus the incoming debuff as they can in fact resist 100 % of the resistance debuff.  Only unresistable resistance debuffs would apply.