Suggestions for Development and testing

[TheZag]

Sets arent balanced against other sets,  they are balanced against itself.  There are guidelines that are mostly followed but changes are often made because not every set uses the same abilities.  That does mean one of the sets will be the highest dps and one of them will be the lowest.  The data i have taken a look at places storm blast almost dead center of the dps chart.  When you consider that most sets have different secondary effects,  its becomes virtually impossible to say what set is the best.  If you only consider raw dps then its very easy to point out a set as 'under performing'.

 

Storm blast does what it does.  Middle of the road damage and above average mitigation of enemy attacks.  Missing a chance for a proc because you used an ability from your secondary doesnt mean you missed a proc,  it means you received whatever benefit that other power had.  I could argue that healing aura should do damage to enemies because i could have used a blast instead and missed out on dps.  Clearly that is ridiculous and so is saying every attack must be a storm blast attack when storm cell and cat5 are active.

 

[Bionic_Flea]

I have played my storm/storm corrupter to 50 and is now T4 on all incarnates.  It's crazy good.  A true tank-mage.   Sure, anyone of my blasters and many of my other characters could take out similar groups faster.  But this is one of the safest squishies I have played.  All of the knocks, -tohit, and critters wanting to run out of the rain means that things aren't shooting at me and Hurricane keeps everything out of my face.  I may get blasted . . . but never punched.

 

I felt it played well in the early levels and then hit a bad slog in the 20s and 30s.  That's not uncommon, but it seemed worse than others because it has a lot of very expensive powers that cry out for slots.  I would be fine and then run out of endurance and suddenly find myself in a lot of danger.  Putting 4 slots in Stamina and using all the end/recovery uniques helped a bunch as did getting the +endurance accolades.  And obviously slotting those end-hungry powers.  I also picked up Victory Rush late in the build and found it pretty effective, even with just the default slot.  If I use it on a boss I can't move my endurance bar while it's active.  And then when I finally slotted Cardiac and Support incarnates, I no longer run out of end unless I get sapped.  And even then I recover pretty quick.

 

I do think that a tweak or two would make it more tolerable in those mid levels.  As I mentioned before, either faster animation, lower endurance costs, or better damage.  My favorite way would be to boost Intensify to last longer or give a slightly higher +damage . . .  or both!

 

It is an excellent soloist but a so-so teammate.  As others have mentioned, by the time you get set up to start doing damage the whole group is usually dead.  And as a storm/storm my buff/debuff is limited to an occasional O2 Boost and Freezing Rain.  Other powersets would have more to do on a team, but they may not be as safe or as damaging as Storm Summoning.  When I did team up I would see who was taking the most damage and would hit them with Spirit Ward and O2 and stay next to them with hurricane if they were ranged.

 

I can't really speak about it on other ATs or even on other corrupters with a different secondary.  I could see that this might be frustrating to someone that always plays blasters and is used to wiping out groups in 4 seconds.  I also imagine that the added safety might be lost on an armored sentinel that would prefer better damage.  I'll eventually get around to making another Storm Blast but it may be awhile.  I find it is good enough on a Storm/Storm corrupter but it could be better with just a tweak or two.  And a tweak or two would not turn it into fire blast.   And it may make it more tolerable on other ATs

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Bionic_Flea

[Rudra]

10 hours ago, Puma said:

Fireball doesn't "chain" and thus doesn't have the weird chance to basically do little to nothing like Chain Lightning.  

 

And cloudburst takes an entire second longer to do far less damage, according to your numbers above.   

 

Meanwhile Fire also gets Rain of Fire, which does pretty solid damage. And sure, Storm Cell does more debuff...but if that's its purpose, even then High Winds is only triggered when you're following it up with more Storm Blast attacks.  


You're literally proving his point.    

 

But this conversation clearly isn't going anywhere.   

 

Fine. How's this?

 

Storm Blast:

Jet Stream:

Damage: 50.0492 (50.05 according to Mids)

Cast: 1.67

Recharge: 10

DPS: 4.2887 (4.2888 according to Mids)

 

Chain Lightning:

Damage: 51.4256 + 22.9394 over 2.2 seconds (Total damage: 74.365) (76.45 according to Mids)

Cast: 1.17

Recharge: 20

DPS: 3.5128 (3.6112 according to Mids)

 

Cloudburst:

Damage: 137.5828 over 2.9 seconds (142.3 according to Mids)

Cast: 1.67

Recharge: 11

DPS: 10.8589 (11.2313 according to Mids)

 

Fire Blast:

Fire Ball:

Damage: 56.3054 + (80% chance) 19.7068 over 2.1 seconds (Total Damage: 76.0122) (74.62 according to Mids)

Cast: 1

Recharge: 16

DPS: 4.4713 (4.3894 according to Mids)

 

Rain Of Fire:

Damage: 57.891 over 15 seconds (125.1 according to Mids)

Cast: 2.03

Recharge: 60

DPS: 0.9333 (2.0168 according to Mids)

(Edit again: Rain of Fire does not give the rate of damage application on City of Data that I saw. It simply says "1.9297 points of Fire damage (all affected targets)

". It does show a cast time of 0, arcana cast of 0.132, animation time of 2.033, and applies damage 0.833 seconds into the animation for the pet effect. So my math is based off a .5 second per tic application of damage.)

 

Fire Breath:

Damage: 76.8569 over 2.1 seconds (109.8 according to Mids)

Cast: 2.67

Recharge: 16

DPS: 4.1166 (5.881 according to Mids)

 

 

All data used unless specifically stated otherwise is from City of Data. And Storm Cell isn't even factored in.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to add the other Mids references for... uhm... reference....

[WindDemon21]

16 hours ago, Rudra said:

As opposed to say... having to get a whole power designed around boosting your accuracy and damage in order to boost your accuracy and damage? Like... Intensify?

It has been discussed ad nauseam how that doesn't actually benefit storm cell and c5.

 

16 hours ago, Rudra said:

Storm Cell is not an attack power. It is a debuff power that also happens to have the ability to do triggered attacks.

It is most definitely an attack power. That's why it does damage and is expected to be slotted for damage, and the set is designed around it's "damage".

 

2 hours ago, Player-1 said:

@WindDemon21, I would advise that the best way to get our eyes and ears on something is to be objective as with @Wavicle in providing evidence to back up claims.

 

Just saying "X is godawful and the devs MUST do Y to fix it!" is guaranteed to be glazed over when compared to doing the work of "X is godawful because of ABC compared directly to DEF, it would be better if Y was done instead". Making dozens of posts in a row without stopping to dig down and bring up the specifics, resorting to hyperbole, and focusing on retorting with other posters rather than the actual issue at hand will only get posts like this critiquing the method of feedback. 

I have done that though. Many times at this point. I guess I have to add in the values each time. For example the stats on chain how it's damage for most of it is only about 50-60% of a normal ranged aoe attack given it's lower damage to the rest of the mob, longer recharge time where it has 20s when most have a 16 second recharge, and, larger end cost, ability to miss whole/half mobs etc. Are you wanting me to give the exact stats the power should have to fix it? I've done that too.

 

I've layed out exactly what the main issues with the set are currently, and what can be done to fix them, as you have just stated to do:

 

A: "X is godawful because of ABC compared directly to DEF:

B: , it would be better if Y was done instead"

 

So here I'll post it again in your exact preference:

 

CHAIN LIGHTNING

 

A: Chain lightning is god awful because it has a longer recharge and higher end cost, while also doing much less damage than a regular similar ranged aoe in other blast sets, while also not proccing for anything useful unlike other ranged aoe powers, and also quite often can miss half of the mob with the way it chains, and can miss the entire aoe if it misses the first target which other ranged aoes also do not have to deal with.

 

B: It would be better if changed to a regular aoe with standard stats, or kept as its chain but compensated with a much lower endurance and recharge value somewhere closer to 8.5 end and 10 second recharge.

 

Chain: 76.45 damage to first target only, 18.51 end, 20s rech. Next hit is only 81.51% of that damage to one target, the rest get about 60% damage. No side effect to the mob outside of storm cell, extremely minimal side effect to the aoe in storm cell only useful at all during c5 or with very pretty much only elec affinity and storm summoning (lightning storm). Procs are mostly non-existent in this power.

 

Unlike other chains that, since more of the damage is on the first target, you could use it as a quasi-single target/two target attack with chain benefit, this power's recharge and very much also end cost make it not really usable against a single target as well making it's end drain synergy with direct strike very limited, another reason the end/rech should be cut down massively so it can be used as a quasi-single target skill as well, less damage than strike/cloud burst to the single target, but with the lower "aoe" damage as the bonus/synergy.

 

76.45 + 62.31 + (45.87x14) = 780.95/900.96(standard aoe value) = 86.68% times .95 = 82.35% assuming you're at the chance to hit cap, where that 5% it misses the first target, it literally does no aoe at all. the damage if it were to hit all targets every time. Factoring in how often it doesn't hit the whole mob, is harder to calculate but also factors in to the lower the average damage you get from the power (the times this occurs is far more often than the times that its chain actually helps to hit more spread out targets, while that value is considered, it's still less overall than the times i've seen chain not hit the entire mob as well due to that chain nature, skill comes in play, but mobs also run out of place as well before the chain actually starts hitting so even the best skill can't avoid this).

 

Fireball: 74.62 damage to ALL, 15.18 end, 16s rech. Bonus damage effect, procs well.

 

Explosive Blast: 56.31 damage to all, 15.18 end, 16s rech. Useful knockback/down, procs well. 900.96 damage to 16 targets. Using this as base reference as it's the general norm for this type of aoe as you see with Nbomb, Water burst, etc:

 

Neutron Bomb: 56.31 damage to all, 15.18end 16s rech. Useful -defense, can take achilles proc for -resist, procs well.

 

Water Burst: 56.31 damage to all,  15.18end 16s rech. Useful knockdown and slow, procs well.

 

Psionic Tornado: 68.82 damage to all, 18.51 end, 20s rech. Useful knockup and -recharge, procs well.

 

STORM CELL AND C5

 

A: Storm cell and C5 are having issues mainly due to the proc rates on the powers and the damage that (cell only) it does, and their base accuracy still being an issue against high targets for most combos and requiring a higher accuracy slotting that other attacks don't have to deal with. As they don't do as much on their own, especially cell, should also have their end costs reduced.

 

B. It would be better if the proc rates on all attacks were 100% to allow the procs to effectively fire at a rate that the power should be doing. This would also allow when the mob dies down to a smaller number of targets, for you to use those lockouts to use your other attacks in between knowing that you are not missing proc chances as they would be locked out. This would also allow the set to function more properly at low levels using your lower level attacks to still effectively trigger storm cell and c5, making the set properly justify using the attacks you want when you want, rather than having to prioritize direct/cloud/chain just to get storm cell/c5 to even do anything properly damagewise.

 

INTENSIFY

 

A: Intensify is bad with this set, because it will not benefit the main two powers within the set storm cell and c5.

 

B. It would be better if it was instead changed to a long duration steady buff so that it can extend over the course of storm cell and c5. As the powers should proc 100%, that bonus effect would be removed, and the damage and to hit values could be reduced to compensate for it's long duration perma-able nature. Something closer to 15% damage boost (blaster value) and 20% to hit, lasting 60s. Recharge could even still be the 90 seconds for those wishing to still use it more often for the gaussians proc, especially sentinels, but it's main function would be the extended duration to last through storm cell/c5.

 

CLOUDBURST

 

A. This power has many flaws due to its long time it takes to get to the mob combined with it's longer DoT to damage. It also has no side effect that can help it outside of storm cell, which this is one of the main powers that gets used when there may only be a boss or two left and storm cell might have dropped, so you're just using your ST chain to kill off the boss or two left which is not worth re-casting storm cell just for that versus saving it for the next mob.

 

B. It would be better if this power instantly casted over the targets head rather than leaving from your hands. With this fixed, the DoT would be fine. It should also have that same secondary effect while out of storm cell of the -to hit and -rech/speed, but just having larger values when the target is affected by storm cell. Like freezing rain and sleet, even regular rain has roads and sidewalks get slippery. It would still make sense for this power to also have a chance to knockdown which would greatly help it when there is no storm cell up.

 

GUST

 

A. This power mainly has an issue on it's damage per cast time. (again assuming that all attacks should be given 100% proc rate for cell/c5).

 

B. It would be better if the cast time was normalized like other tier 1s down to 1second cast time. The extra damage it does when storm cell is up should be a benefit to the power, not making it deal worse damage when cell is not up. The additional damage while in storm cell can be lowered to reflect this to make it's DPA the same. Again, this is to normalize the set working somewhat when cell is not up in those situations where it may wear off with only a boss or two being left.

 

JET STREAM

 

A. This powers issues lie mostly when not affected by storm cell. The issues come two fold: One, when targets are just outside of the cell behind it, and your jet stream hits them and actually pushes them FURTHER away from the cell. The other issue is when cell is down completely, and the repel causes the power to mostly be unusable especially on teams, yet also offers no protection if you DO put a kb-kd in it to remove the repel. While the "hitting enemies past storm cell" part mostly refers to blasters with the boosted range after snipe, it can still happen on others with bonuses/slotting etc. While yes you can control this part more yourself, there is also just no need to ever have it push them FURTHER away from the cell or c5.

 

B. It would be better, while still keeping the repel for reasons I would suggest two things: One, make the repel be on a separate cone similar to how cold snap has the two cones in the same power. One cone, would be just for the repel, at a shorter radius. perhaps 25ft to the damage's 40ft. That way, it should mostly guarantee that its only repelling the enemies between you and the storm cell back into the cell, but shouldn't ever repel enemies that are beyond the area of storm cell. Then, on the main cone attack power, give it a chance to knockdown so it can help mitigate when cell is not up. Again, this is to help the set's reliance on storm cell, but still allowing it to be better when storm cell is up, like in situations where there may only be a couple bosses left and it's not worth recasting storm cell.

[WindDemon21]

3 hours ago, TheZag said:

Sets arent balanced against other sets,  they are balanced against itself.  There are guidelines that are mostly followed but changes are often made because not every set uses the same abilities.  That does mean one of the sets will be the highest dps and one of them will be the lowest.  The data i have taken a look at places storm blast almost dead center of the dps chart.  When you consider that most sets have different secondary effects,  its becomes virtually impossible to say what set is the best.  If you only consider raw dps then its very easy to point out a set as 'under performing'.

 

Storm blast does what it does.  Middle of the road damage and above average mitigation of enemy attacks.  Missing a chance for a proc because you used an ability from your secondary doesnt mean you missed a proc,  it means you received whatever benefit that other power had.  I could argue that healing aura should do damage to enemies because i could have used a blast instead and missed out on dps.  Clearly that is ridiculous and so is saying every attack must be a storm blast attack when storm cell and cat5 are active.

 

This is both right and wrong at points. Yes sets are designed on themselves, but they also have to be checked against the other sets for balance.

 

On the 2nd paragraph: you're wrong about when using other powers. For literally any other power comparison yes, but currently at least (due to proc chances) because you are losing those procs since they only happen when you use the storm blast attacks, that is not true of storm blast. It's not like how rains work. While compared to the actual attack you use, yes, but every non-storm blast power you're using, means you're not getting procs, which while as mentioned storm cell isn't doing enough proccing already, it means it's going to be doing even less, which per the first paragraph, the set IS largely centered around getting it's procs, especially for how terrible chain lightning is.

[Bionic_Flea]

WindDemon21:

 

What I think Player1 and the other devs are asking for is actually playing it and demonstrating during that play that it is deficient, broken, way under-performing.

 

They already know Storm is not top tier DPS and they are not inclined to make it so.

 

Something like the the Trapdoor test with a Storm Blaster vs another Blaster, or maybe all the blaster primaries.  Bopper, GalaxyMind and others have done testing like that and have gotten things changed by doing so.

 

It seems like you are armchair quarterbacking -- talking about the game, the players, the refs, the play calling; but not actually playing the game to demonstrate not just that it could be better, but that it is significantly under other blasts.

[WindDemon21]

1 minute ago, Bionic_Flea said:

WindDemon21:

 

What I think Player1 and the other devs are asking for is actually playing it and demonstrating during that play that it is deficient, broken, way under-performing.

 

They already know Storm is not top tier DPS and they are not inclined to make it so.

 

Something like the the Trapdoor test with a Storm Blaster vs another Blaster, or maybe all the blaster primaries.  Bopper, GalaxyMind and others have done testing like that and have gotten things changed by doing so.

 

It seems like you are armchair quarterbacking -- talking about the game, the players, the refs, the play calling; but not actually playing the game to demonstrate not just that it could be better, but that it is significantly under other blasts.

I've been playing it fairly constantly since it went live, that's why I keep finding/having these issues with it lol. Those things that I just pointed out are specifically what I've noticed when playing the set and why it just feels off, and what would fix it. Why it constantly seems lagging, and what and why me and many others are getting constantly frustrated with the set even though it looks beautiful. (on that note, just had another person in game mention not playing another storm blast toon until it's fixed, when literally all I said prior was "have you tried the new storm blast yet 😕) As mentioned the single target damage is mostly fine except those couple small things I mentioned regarding outside of storm cell. It's issues lie mainly in the aoe/proccing.

 

I'm more than fine with it not being top tier dps, but it also feels terrible having it not proc enough, and having it's main aoe power be severely underpowered as well, which also results in it costing more end to take down a mob which is a big part of where the end issues come in.

[TheZag]

But u want a change based on feels.  Run the same mission 10 times and record your time.  Then do it with as many other sets as you can and record those times.  Come with data instead of feels to ask for a change.  It feels fine to me so you need more than that to try to convince the devs.  Playing it for 1000 hours isnt data either.  Recording clear times,  number of deaths,  times needing inspirations to survive,  and at several different difficulties with several runs each on the same mission is.  Do that and i bet a dev would be very interested in what you have to say.

 

[Rudra]

39 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

It is most definitely an attack power. That's why it does damage and is expected to be slotted for damage, and the set is designed around it's "damage".

Storm Cell takes endurance modification sets, knockback sets, and damage sets. The expectation that it will be slotted for damage is yours, not the sets.

 

41 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

20 hours ago, Rudra said:

As opposed to say... having to get a whole power designed around boosting your accuracy and damage in order to boost your accuracy and damage? Like... Intensify?

It has been discussed ad nauseam how that doesn't actually benefit storm cell and c5.

 

42 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

INTENSIFY

 

A: Intensify is bad with this set, because it will not benefit the main two powers within the set storm cell and c5.

 

B. It would be better if it was instead changed to a long duration steady buff so that it can extend over the course of storm cell and c5.

So Intensify does not affect Storm Cell or Category 5 but should have its duration extended so it grants its benefits to Storm Cell and Category 5 for their full duration? A power cannot both not affect and affect another power.

 

43 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

I have done that though. Many times at this point. I guess I have to add in the values each time. For example the stats on chain how it's damage for most of it is only about 50-60% of a normal ranged aoe attack given it's lower damage to the rest of the mob, longer recharge time where it has 20s when most have a 16 second recharge, and, larger end cost, ability to miss whole/half mobs etc. Are you wanting me to give the exact stats the power should have to fix it? I've done that too.

And where is your data backing this claim? Remember my data? That can be referenced on City of Data? Here, I'll post it again for you.

 

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

Chain Lightning:

Damage: 51.4256 + 22.9394 over 2.2 seconds (Total damage: 74.365) (76.45 according to Mids)

Cast: 1.17

Recharge: 20

DPS: 3.5128 (3.6112 according to Mids)

 

Fire Blast:

Fire Ball:

Damage: 56.3054 + (80% chance) 19.7068 over 2.1 seconds (Total Damage: 76.0122) (74.62 according to Mids)

Cast: 1

Recharge: 16

DPS: 4.4713 (4.3894 according to Mids)

 

Rain Of Fire:

Damage: 57.891 over 15 seconds (125.1 according to Mids)

Cast: 2.03

Recharge: 60

DPS: 0.9333 (2.0168 according to Mids)

(Edit again: Rain of Fire does not give the rate of damage application on City of Data that I saw. It simply says "1.9297 points of Fire damage (all affected targets)

". It does show a cast time of 0, arcana cast of 0.132, animation time of 2.033, and applies damage 0.833 seconds into the animation for the pet effect. So my math is based off a .5 second per tic application of damage.)

 

Fire Breath:

Damage: 76.8569 over 2.1 seconds (109.8 according to Mids)

Cast: 2.67

Recharge: 16

DPS: 4.1166 (5.881 according to Mids)

So let's take a look at these numbers and your 60% before even factoring in recharge claim. Chain Lightning hits for 74.365 total damage. Fire Ball hits for 76.0122 damage. Rain of Fire hits for 57.891 total damage. Fire Breath hits for 76.5869 total damage. 74.365 is 97.83% of Fire Ball's damage, 128.46% of Rain of Fire's damage, and 96.76% of Fire Breath's damage. And when you factor in the recharge and cast times? Well, just look at my re-post of the data above. Your 60% that gets reduced to 50% with recharge argument is garbage. Provide actual data, not random claims to prove otherwise.

 

Chain Lightning:

Not in game, not in Mids, not in City of Data does Chain Lightning say it does less damage when it arcs to the next target. What it does say is it has a 15 feet jump distance and can hit up to 16 targets max. Now if it does, since you have obviously seen it, then you also have proof it does, yes? Please upload your proof.

 

Storm Cell and Category 5:

Storm Cell has a base accuracy of 1. Category 5 has a base accuracy of 2. Both still accept and are affected by their slotted enhancements which can include accuracy enhancements. And unless I am mistaken, both are still affected by global accuracy buffs such as from enhancement set bonuses and from special enhancements like the +6% Accuracy special enhancement from the Kismet set. So you the player can still boost their respective accuracy to consistently hit even +7 mobs. Unless you decide to not spend the effort doing so.

 

Cloudburst:

You could maybe summon it on the target? And while it may not have a secondary effect out of Storm Cell, it also does a hell of a lot of raw cold damage.

 

Gust:

Gust does 62.5615 damage.

Fire Blast does 62.5615 damage.

Ice Bolt does 62.5615 damage.

Aqua Bolt does a combined 52.5516 damage.

 

Gust's damage is not lacking out of Storm Cell. Give data proving otherwise.

 

It's all about the data. You are not giving any actual data. Just your opinion. And the data says you are wrong.

[WindDemon21]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

So Intensify does not affect Storm Cell or Category 5 but should have its duration extended so it grants its benefits to Storm Cell and Category 5 for their full duration? A power cannot both not affect and affect another power.

It doesn't now because it's a power that has such a short duration versus powers that have extended duration. This has also been explained ad nauseam.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Chain Lightning:

 

Not in game, not in Mids, not in City of Data does Chain Lightning say it does less damage when it arcs to the next target. What it does say is it has a 15 feet jump distance and can hit up to 16 targets max. Now if it does, since you have obviously seen it, then you also have proof it does, yes? Please upload your proof.

 

 

Have you ACTUALLY even played the set or tested the power? Just because it has bad description, doesn't mean that it's not working EXACTLY as I've explained. Seriously look at the floating numbers, or just look at your combat log.

 

I'm not even going to bother quoting the rest of what you said because it's all so terribly wrong you clearly have not actually tested any of these things and are SO far out of knowing anything about what we've been discussing.

 

 

[Rudra]

12 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

It doesn't now because it's a power that has such a short duration versus powers that have extended duration. This has also been explained ad nauseam.

 

 

 

 

Have you ACTUALLY even played the set or tested the power? Just because it has bad description, doesn't mean that it's not working EXACTLY as I've explained. Seriously look at the floating numbers, or just look at your combat log.

 

I'm not even going to bother quoting the rest of what you said because it's all so terribly wrong you clearly have not actually tested any of these things and are SO far out of knowing anything about what we've been discussing.

 

 

So let's see what you posted. You hit Blood Brother Chopper for 350.68, then the power's DoT hit for much smaller numbers individually. Then it jumped to Blood Brother Slammer for 275.35 damage, then the DoT for smaller numbers. Then it jumped to another Blood Brother Slammer for 210.4 damage followed by its DoT for smaller numbers. Then it jumped Blood Brother Slugger for 206.51 damage followed by the DoT. Then it jumped to Blood Brother Slicer for 210.4 damage followed by DoT. Then it jumped to Blood Brother Chopper for 210.4 damage followed by DoT. Then it jumped to another Blood Brother Chopper for 206.51 damage followed by DoT.

 

350.68

275.35

210.4

206.51

210.4

206.51

 

Was this on a Blaster, Defender, Corrupter, or Sentinel? Because to me it looks like you scored a crit, then regular variable damage. (Edit: Or you have a damage proc slotted and it smacked the first target. And I think the damage procs only hit the first target in the chain.)

 

Edit: Also, just saying I am terribly wrong means nothing. Prove it. Everything I have posted included where you can get the reference data from or can be looked up in the power itself. Stop just saying others are wrong. If we are, then prove it.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Rudra

[Puma]

5 hours ago, TheZag said:

Sets arent balanced against other sets,  they are balanced against itself.  There are guidelines that are mostly followed but changes are often made because not every set uses the same abilities.  That does mean one of the sets will be the highest dps and one of them will be the lowest.  The data i have taken a look at places storm blast almost dead center of the dps chart.  When you consider that most sets have different secondary effects,  its becomes virtually impossible to say what set is the best.  If you only consider raw dps then its very easy to point out a set as 'under performing'.

 

Storm blast does what it does.  Middle of the road damage and above average mitigation of enemy attacks.  Missing a chance for a proc because you used an ability from your secondary doesnt mean you missed a proc,  it means you received whatever benefit that other power had.  I could argue that healing aura should do damage to enemies because i could have used a blast instead and missed out on dps.  Clearly that is ridiculous and so is saying every attack must be a storm blast attack when storm cell and cat5 are active.

 

Healing Aura's damage isn't linked to using other powers from that set. It heals just as it should regardless of what you follow it up with.  That is the difference.  for your comparison above, where you say "missing a chance for a proc because you used [another ability] doesn't mean you missed a proc, it means you received whatever benefit that other power had, to be accurate, Healing Aura would be balanced around Heals Over Time, but that healing over time would only happen if you continue using other healing powers. The minute you attack, it would stop. Which would mean that, yes, it means you've missed healing from a power you already cast.   

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, Puma said:

Healing Aura's damage isn't linked to using other powers from that set. It heals just as it should regardless of what you follow it up with.  That is the difference.  for your comparison above, where you say "missing a chance for a proc because you used [another ability] doesn't mean you missed a proc, it means you received whatever benefit that other power had, to be accurate, Healing Aura would be balanced around Heals Over Time, but that healing over time would only happen if you continue using other healing powers. The minute you attack, it would stop. Which would mean that, yes, it means you've missed healing from a power you already cast.   

Healing Aura does damage?!

 

(Edit: You are also trying to compare an instant duration 2.03 second cast time power to a 60 second duration power. Especially since that duration power's primary listed effects of debuffing your foes in its radius never stops until it times out or they leave the effect.)

Edited May 16, 2023 by Rudra

[Puma]

25 minutes ago, TheZag said:

But u want a change based on feels.  Run the same mission 10 times and record your time.  Then do it with as many other sets as you can and record those times.  Come with data instead of feels to ask for a change.  It feels fine to me so you need more than that to try to convince the devs.  Playing it for 1000 hours isnt data either.  Recording clear times,  number of deaths,  times needing inspirations to survive,  and at several different difficulties with several runs each on the same mission is.  Do that and i bet a dev would be very interested in what you have to say.

 

I posted detailed comparisons in this and other threads. It's not based on "feels."  In THIS thread we've discussed end costs, damage totals, duration, etc.  
 
We had one Dev in Beta who responded very well and was open to the concerns.  We've had two chime in on this and another thread defensively and dismissively, which, frankly, tells me how much they appear to be interested in what is being said.  

[Puma]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Healing Aura does damage?!

No. Read the the thread please.   Someone made a bad comparison that they should demand healing aura do damage otherwise it's costing them to use it. I explained why that comparison makes no sense.  

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Puma said:

No. Read the the thread please.   Someone made a bad comparison that they should demand healing aura do damage otherwise it's costing them to use it. I explained why that comparison makes no sense.  

 

8 minutes ago, Puma said:

5 hours ago, TheZag said:

Sets arent balanced against other sets,  they are balanced against itself.  There are guidelines that are mostly followed but changes are often made because not every set uses the same abilities.  That does mean one of the sets will be the highest dps and one of them will be the lowest.  The data i have taken a look at places storm blast almost dead center of the dps chart.  When you consider that most sets have different secondary effects,  its becomes virtually impossible to say what set is the best.  If you only consider raw dps then its very easy to point out a set as 'under performing'.

 

Storm blast does what it does.  Middle of the road damage and above average mitigation of enemy attacks.  Missing a chance for a proc because you used an ability from your secondary doesnt mean you missed a proc,  it means you received whatever benefit that other power had.  I could argue that healing aura should do damage to enemies because i could have used a blast instead and missed out on dps.  Clearly that is ridiculous and so is saying every attack must be a storm blast attack when storm cell and cat5 are active.

 

Healing Aura's damage isn't linked to using other powers from that set. It heals just as it should regardless of what you follow it up with.  That is the difference.  for your comparison above, where you say "missing a chance for a proc because you used [another ability] doesn't mean you missed a proc, it means you received whatever benefit that other power had, to be accurate, Healing Aura would be balanced around Heals Over Time, but that healing over time would only happen if you continue using other healing powers. The minute you attack, it would stop. Which would mean that, yes, it means you've missed healing from a power you already cast. 

What @TheZag said was that based on your demands, (s)he could make that argument. Not that @TheZag was making that argument. The point is that Storm Cell's effects do not stop just because you stop using Storm Blast's attacks, you just aren't getting the added benefits those attacks trigger in Storm Cell. You are however, getting the benefits of the other powers you use instead. So you aren't missing a proc chance, you are just benefitting from something else.

[WindDemon21]

12 minutes ago, TheZag said:

But u want a change based on feels.  Run the same mission 10 times and record your time.  Then do it with as many other sets as you can and record those times.  Come with data instead of feels to ask for a change.  It feels fine to me so you need more than that to try to convince the devs.  Playing it for 1000 hours isnt data either.  Recording clear times,  number of deaths,  times needing inspirations to survive,  and at several different difficulties with several runs each on the same mission is.  Do that and i bet a dev would be very

interested in what you have to say.

 

There are a lot of factors that can go into that. While not recorded, I've been doing exactly that testing storm mob to mob. I know on the original beta thread Puma has done that as well. I don't mind that it's slower, but at a good bit, plus how it factors on the end cost is a really big thing. Even if the damage stayed exactly the same, the more procs would still be preferable on the mitigation side, and even with everything being the same, due to it doing less aoe damage, results in more end needed to take down a mob, which I'd also easily say is probably the biggest frustration I've had with the set. That largely comes down to the proc chances of the attacks, and chain lightnings stats as mentioned before.

 

There also seems to be something fundamentally bugged with storm cell, which maybe that is what is also resulting in the procs seeming extra bad. Here's an example, long-snipe direct strike is 80% proc chance, with intensify, that is 100% that it should guarantee full proccing. Storm cell, outside of misses, then should be guaranteed to hit 7 targets, but as you can see, it's not doing so. Take away *maybe* one target for REALLY bad RNG, and it should still have hit 6 targets with the lightning: (god for the life of me i can't figure out why i can't seem to record again). I tried it 3 times in a row with different mobs in PP that were close together. Twice in a row Laying cell, cast intensify, cast slow snipe I only got 2 strikes to hit other targets, the 3rd time It hit 4.

 

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

So let's see what you posted. You hit Blood Brother Chopper for 350.68, then the power's DoT hit for much smaller numbers individually. Then it jumped to Blood Brother Slammer for 275.35 damage, then the DoT for smaller numbers. Then it jumped to another Blood Brother Slammer for 210.4 damage followed by its DoT for smaller numbers. Then it jumped Blood Brother Slugger for 206.51 damage followed by the DoT. Then it jumped to Blood Brother Slicer for 210.4 damage followed by DoT. Then it jumped to Blood Brother Chopper for 210.4 damage followed by DoT. Then it jumped to another Blood Brother Chopper for 206.51 damage followed by DoT.

 

350.68

275.35

210.4

206.51

210.4

206.51

 

Was this on a Blaster, Defender, Corrupter, or Sentinel? Because to me it looks like you scored a crit, then regular variable damage. (Edit: Or you have a damage proc slotted and it smacked the first target. And I think the damage procs only hit the first target in the chain.)

 

Edit: Also, just saying I am terribly wrong means nothing. Prove it. Everything I have posted included where you can get the reference data from or can be looked up in the power itself. Stop just saying others are wrong. If we are, then prove it.

I HAVE proved it, several times over, I actually proved it before you even just posted this because it's literally right there in that image that you're responding to. You do clearly get that these numbers are so high because I was testing on minnions in atlas as to not skew any data with resistances and misses and such right? The size of the number doesn't matter in what I showed you. What does matter is that the numbers for the additional targets are less than the initial and scaling down ones. It also doesn't say scourge on that image anywhere, so clearly that was not in play. Damage procs can also hit any target in the chain, but due to the coding on this type of chain, it procs incredibly terribly, so there is no point in using procs for it.

[Puma]

20 minutes ago, Rudra said:

 

What @TheZag said was that based on your demands, (s)he could make that argument. Not that @TheZag was making that argument. The point is that Storm Cell's effects do not stop just because you stop using Storm Blast's attacks, you just aren't getting the added benefits those attacks trigger in Storm Cell. You are however, getting the benefits of the other powers you use instead. So you aren't missing a proc chance, you are just benefitting from something else.

Correct me if I'm wrong (it's entirely possible I am):  
 
With no procs, Storm Cell only does just one thing: activates the windspeed psuedopet, which does the following: 

PvE Only
100% chance

-70% maximum RunningSpeed (all affected targets) for 8s
PvP or PvE
100% chance

-28% JumpHeight Strength (all affected targets) for 8s
-14% RechargeTime (all affected targets) for 8s
-28% RunningSpeed, FlyingSpeed, JumpingSpeed (all affected targets) for 8s
-9.8% ToHit (all affected targets) for 8s
 

 

So you get a set of debuffs similar to Ice Storm (only weaker) or Rain of Fire, but with a small -tohit thrown in in place of the damage  (less -tohit than any of the dark blast attacks, for example).   

 

To get it to do any damage you must follow it up with storm blast attacks.   To get it to drop the Tempest Psuedopet for 2 seconds you need to use storm blast attacks, which will then add another  4.9 percent -tohit, for a total of 14.7% tohit if you're spamming Storm Cell attacks.  

 

Is that correct? 
 

If I drop Ice Storm I get 

PvE Only
100% chance

-350% maximum RunningSpeed (all affected targets) 

-30% FlyingSpeed (all affected targets) for 0.5s

-40% JumpHeight Strength (all affected targets) for 0.5s

-10% RechargeTime (all affected targets) for 0.5s

-40% RunningSpeed, JumpingSpeed (all affected targets) for 0.5s 

but also get quite a bit of damage over time no matter what I do next. 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Puma

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

There are a lot of factors that can go into that. While not recorded, I've been doing exactly that testing storm mob to mob. I know on the original beta thread Puma has done that as well. I don't mind that it's slower, but at a good bit, plus how it factors on the end cost is a really big thing. Even if the damage stayed exactly the same, the more procs would still be preferable on the mitigation side, and even with everything being the same, due to it doing less aoe damage, results in more end needed to take down a mob, which I'd also easily say is probably the biggest frustration I've had with the set. That largely comes down to the proc chances of the attacks, and chain lightnings stats as mentioned before.

 

There also seems to be something fundamentally bugged with storm cell, which maybe that is what is also resulting in the procs seeming extra bad. Here's an example, long-snipe direct strike is 80% proc chance, with intensify, that is 100% that it should guarantee full proccing. Storm cell, outside of misses, then should be guaranteed to hit 7 targets, but as you can see, it's not doing so. Take away *maybe* one target for REALLY bad RNG, and it should still have hit 6 targets with the lightning: (god for the life of me i can't figure out why i can't seem to record again). I tried it 3 times in a row with different mobs in PP that were close together. Twice in a row Laying cell, cast intensify, cast slow snipe I only got 2 strikes to hit other targets, the 3rd time It hit 4.

 

I HAVE proved it, several times over, I actually proved it before you even just posted this because it's literally right there in that image that you're responding to. You do clearly get that these numbers are so high because I was testing on minnions in atlas as to not skew any data with resistances and misses and such right? The size of the number doesn't matter in what I showed you. What does matter is that the numbers for the additional targets are less than the initial and scaling down ones. It also doesn't say scourge on that image anywhere, so clearly that was not in play. Damage procs can also hit any target in the chain, but due to the coding on this type of chain, it procs incredibly terribly, so there is no point in using procs for it.

I figured you were attacking grey Hellions for that purpose. And you can't scourge a full health mob. (At least, I've never done so.) So Scourge wasn't even part of my question.

[WindDemon21]

8 minutes ago, Puma said:

Correct me if I'm wrong (it's entirely possible I am):  
 
With no procs, Storm Cell only does just one thing: activates the windspeed psuedopet, which does the following: 

PvE Only
100% chance

-70% maximum RunningSpeed (all affected targets) for 8s
PvP or PvE
100% chance

-28% JumpHeight Strength (all affected targets) for 8s
-14% RechargeTime (all affected targets) for 8s
-28% RunningSpeed, FlyingSpeed, JumpingSpeed (all affected targets) for 8s
-9.8% ToHit (all affected targets) for 8s
 

 

So you get a set of debuffs similar to Ice Storm or Rain of Fire, but with a moderate -tohit thrown in in place of the damage.   

 

To get it to do any damage you must follow it up with storm blast attacks.   To get it to drop the Tempest Psuedopet for 2 seconds you need to use storm blast attacks, which will add another   4.9 percent -tohit, for a total of 14.7% tohit if you're spamming Storm Cell attacks.  

 

Is that correct? 
 

No you have them backwards. The smaller debuff is the location power itself. The larger debuff is the high winds proc.

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I figured you were attacking grey Hellions for that purpose. And you can't scourge a full health mob. (At least, I've never done so.) So Scourge wasn't even part of my question.

You mentioned crits, which is what scourge is basically. The only other "crit" that exists on these types of AT's are with /ninja blaster, even then, that still shows up in the combat log when a crit occurs. So that was not a factor.

[Rudra]

21 minutes ago, Puma said:

Correct me if I'm wrong (it's entirely possible I am):  
 
With no procs, Storm Cell only does just one thing: activates the windspeed psuedopet, which does the following: 

PvE Only
100% chance

-70% maximum RunningSpeed (all affected targets) for 8s
PvP or PvE
100% chance

-28% JumpHeight Strength (all affected targets) for 8s
-14% RechargeTime (all affected targets) for 8s
-28% RunningSpeed, FlyingSpeed, JumpingSpeed (all affected targets) for 8s
-9.8% ToHit (all affected targets) for 8s
 

 

So you get a set of debuffs similar to Ice Storm or Rain of Fire, but with a moderate -tohit thrown in in place of the damage.   

 

To get it to do any damage you must follow it up with storm blast attacks.   To get it to drop the Tempest Psuedopet for 2 seconds you need to use storm blast attacks, which will add another   4.9 percent -tohit, for a total of 14.7% tohit if you're spamming Storm Cell attacks.  

 

Is that correct? 
 

What Storm Cell does, by itself, is -7% recharge, -14% movement speeds, and -7% ToHit to all enemies in its radius. The High Winds, Category 5 Lightning, and Lightning Aura (Split, Focused, and Spread) effects are triggered effects. The triggered High Winds effect adds -14% recharge, -28% movement speeds, and -9.8% ToHit. (Edit: Though the High Winds effect also has its own duration. 8 seconds each time it is triggered.)

Edited May 16, 2023 by Rudra

[Rudra]

32 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

You mentioned crits, which is what scourge is basically. The only other "crit" that exists on these types of AT's are with /ninja blaster, even then, that still shows up in the combat log when a crit occurs. So that was not a factor.

Blasters get crits. Not Scourge, actual crits. Scourge is a chance for additonal damage based on how low the target's health is. It has a chance to trigger based on the target's health. Blaster crits can trigger at any time. I don't play Defenders and I only have 1 Sentinel that I ahve not played in a very long time. So I don't know if they get any form of crits.

 

Edit: Okay, now take a character with a different blast set that is enhanced the same way and post its damage against the same mobs. (Edit again: Preferably using Ball Lightning or Short Circuit.)

Edited May 16, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to correct "not" to "now" and add the "Edit again" section.

[Puma]

Just now, Rudra said:

What Storm Cell does, by itself, is -7% recharge, -14% movement speeds, and -7% ToHit to all enemies in its radius. The High Winds, Category 5 Lightning, and Lightning Aura (Split, Focused, and Spread) effects are triggered effects. The triggered High Winds effect adds -14% recharge, -28% movement speeds, and -9.8% ToHit.

Ok so the debuffs are even worse than I thought unless I'm spamming Storm Blast attacks. 

 

So I don't get how it's not an inferior power UNLESS you are following it up with Storm Blast attacks.  It basically looks like it just trades its damage in exchange for just being the weaker secondary effects of the Ice and Dark AoEs. 

 

So to me, anyway, that makes it feel like, yes, you are sacrificing damage if you go to any other attack, at least compared to any other sets whose AoEs (which ALSO offer better versions of those debuffs) do that potential damage and debuffing entirely on their own.   

 

I dunno. That's my experience.  I'm glad you like the set, but I can't get it past the early 30s without hating it, and even on test when I went to full tricked out 50s found it lacking against AVs and other tough opponents compared to other sets.  I refused to pair it with Storm because I knew storm could cover up a lot of the issues because storm is so incredibly and dealing out its own damage AND debuffing enemies on its own.   

[Puma]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Blasters get crits. Not Scourge, actual crits. Scourge is a chance for additonal damage based on how low the target's health is. It has a chance to trigger based on the target's health. Blaster crits can trigger at any time. I don't play Defenders and I only have 1 Sentinel that I ahve not played in a very long time. So I don't know if they get any form of crits.

Blasters get crits? 

  

Are you thinking of Scrappers?  Blasters get a +dmg from each successive attack. They don't get crits. 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Puma

[Rudra]

12 minutes ago, Puma said:

Blasters get crits? 

  

Are you thinking of Scrappers? 

Maybe.

 

Edit: If that is the case though and Blaster's don't crit, and @WindDemon21 isn't using a damage proc in the power, then I sit corrected about the damage not scaling down to the 3rd hit. I still want to see @WindDemon21's damage reference I requested though. (Edit again: Preferably as compared to Ball Lightning or Short Circuit.)

Edited May 16, 2023 by Rudra