Fixing consume and dark consumption, and related issues.

[Rudra]

34 minutes ago, Luminara said:

You keep exaggerating on this point.  That "big enough mob" is 3.  That also happens to be the same number of minions the game expects you to be capable of fighting at the default difficulty setting.

 

Oh, hey, wow, look at that, there appears to be a direct correlation between the design of the power and the number of enemies in a default difficulty spawn, as though the developers ran the numbers and said, "If the players slot this for EndMod, it will completely refill their Endurance in a single default difficulty spawn".

 

Nah, they just fucked up, right?

 

34 minutes ago, Luminara said:

but, for some reason, you just can't find 3 enemies in 45 seconds (or die when you're facing SUCH A HUGE MOB) and if you do fight 3 enemies in that 45 seconds, you're flatlining your blue bar.

@WindDemon21's complaint isn't that (s)he/they can't find 3 mobs with which to fill their END bar, it is that those powers cannot be incorporated into a sustained attack chain and (s)he/they want it to need more than just the default 3 mobs to reach full restoration. So the stated desire from what I'm reading is Dark Consumption and Consume need to have shorter recharges so they can be 'properly' incorporated into an attack chain and also need the full 10 targets they can hit to grant the full END while also granting more upfront END per use. (Please bear in mind I do not agree with this stance and it hurts my head to understand.) So in @WindDemon21's goal: need more targets to get full END bar instead of 3 or 4, needs to grant more END if only facing a single foe, and needs to have a short enough recharge that can be used at least in every fight.

[TheZag]

We dont need to strip more sets of the few powers that they have which reward players for planning ahead and using abilities with thoughtful timing.  Reducing these abilities to spam on cooldown status makes the sets into another button mashing faceroll.  There are several sets that satisfy the button mash and many of them are cookie cutter sets in different flavors - small attack,  mid attack,  aoe,  buildup,  large attack,  nuke.  I would be sad for more sets that dont exactly follow the mold to get stripped of their individuality and become another reskin of the standard sets.

 

[WindDemon21]

15 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

You're going to insist that you didn't misunderstand how the +MaxHP buff works, rather, you can't find, or won't approach, a spawn large enough (3 targets) for the +Endurance to refill your bar?

What?? I'm literally not even reading all this because you can't seem to comprehend ANYTHING I've said so far, you're just trying to pick a fight and are being completely absurd, or are just plain that stupid if you aren't understanding some VERY simple things I've said. Just looking at that first sentence how you seem to think that I don't know how the max hp buff works?? It grants a buff simply by casting the power regardless of enemies, and has just barely over values that auto +max hp powers offer. I didn't misunderstand anything, that appears to be you.

 

So again, no point in reading the rest since you clearly can't seem to comprehend anything I've been saying.

[WindDemon21]

15 hours ago, Rudra said:

 

@WindDemon21's complaint isn't that (s)he/they can't find 3 mobs with which to fill their END bar, it is that those powers cannot be incorporated into a sustained attack chain and (s)he/they want it to need more than just the default 3 mobs to reach full restoration. So the stated desire from what I'm reading is Dark Consumption and Consume need to have shorter recharges so they can be 'properly' incorporated into an attack chain and also need the full 10 targets they can hit to grant the full END while also granting more upfront END per use. (Please bear in mind I do not agree with this stance and it hurts my head to understand.) So in @WindDemon21's goal: need more targets to get full END bar instead of 3 or 4, needs to grant more END if only facing a single foe, and needs to have a short enough recharge that can be used at least in every fight.

Again, it's separate per power since both consume/dc generally have different roles especially being in an armor set versus a melee set. Armor set, yes, like many others that offer end help, consume is way under-statted in comparison with that 3 minute recharge. There were other suggestions via messing with recovery amount/duration instead of straight 60s rech, but the 60s rech is the quickest way to value the power (even if, and easily so, that recovery is removed to compensate the new recharge).

 

DC, I think you at least heard what I said about it, how being in the primary versus armor set which most melees don't offer such direct help, would be ok with it not granting as MUCH end at once, however the power is still so poorly statted at that 3 minute recharge, that it would be, without being completely stupid, almost impossible to make have less end gained with a shorter recharge and set out more as an attack with end help.

 

Both though, would benefit from having more end up front on the first target. Consume though would proper stats much like EA, power sink etc, would be fine if it was the straight gains. DC though being mixed attack and end focused, as opposed to more JUST endurance as it is now since for how low its damage is with that 3 minute recharge is basically can't even be counted as an attack, would make more sense having the more end on the first target as with an attack focus as well, you wouldn't be saving it only on big mobs just for the endurance, it would be a more sustained end help every mob (thus allowing it to be used as an actual attack as well, even if it's only used once per mob with a 60s recharge versus normal aoe's which are at about 15s)

[WindDemon21]

15 hours ago, TheZag said:

We dont need to strip more sets of the few powers that they have which reward players for planning ahead and using abilities with thoughtful timing.  Reducing these abilities to spam on cooldown status makes the sets into another button mashing faceroll.  There are several sets that satisfy the button mash and many of them are cookie cutter sets in different flavors - small attack,  mid attack,  aoe,  buildup,  large attack,  nuke.  I would be sad for more sets that dont exactly follow the mold to get stripped of their individuality and become another reskin of the standard sets.

 

I agree, which is why I mentioned even reducing the piddly damage it does even further (consume) to still allow slotting of those sets, but "basically" having the power do no damage on its own, which for how low it's current damage is anyway, is already pretty much at that point regardless.

 

On the 2nd part, a power recharging with a base 60s isn't a button mash faceroll. Even on most higher end builds, that's still about a 20s interval between uses. (again even at that recharge, or less depending where in the mob the fight is ie if there is only a boss left, between spawns etc).

 

DC at a 3 minute recharge isn't "individuality" it's underpowered plain and simple. DC at 60s even leaving the damage and all other stats alone, would still only be about proper, it woudln't be just another button mash like other sets are, not even close. (even a smaller increase in end cost would be justified as well, it would still have pretty low damage for an aoe, so a 6ish end cost wouldn't be out of the question)

 

If you were regarding consume as the button mash, it's still not at 60s like I just explained, but this was where the suggestion of let's say 90-120s rech comes in, with extending/frontloading the recovery bonus to let's say 60s (non stacking) comes in so it's still a bit different. But as is currently at 3 minute recharge, is REALLY underpowered  by comparison/use.

[Rudra]

34 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

DC, I think you at least heard what I said about it, how being in the primary versus armor set which most melees don't offer such direct help, would be ok with it not granting as MUCH end at once, however the power is still so poorly statted at that 3 minute recharge, that it would be, without being completely stupid, almost impossible to make have less end gained with a shorter recharge and set out more as an attack with end help.

 

27 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

DC at a 3 minute recharge isn't "individuality" it's underpowered plain and simple. DC at 60s even leaving the damage and all other stats alone, would still only be about proper, it woudln't be just another button mash like other sets are, not even close. (even a smaller increase in end cost would be justified as well, it would still have pretty low damage for an aoe, so a 6ish end cost wouldn't be out of the question)

Dark Consumption is not meant as an attack. It is a utility power that happens to do damage. You keep looking at it like it is supposed to be an attack just because it is in the melee power set instead of in the armor power set. The Live devs wanted to make sure that Dark Melee could be paired with any secondary instead of just Dark Armor (and possibly Fiery Aura). So we wound up with a damaging utility power in the melee set instead of the armor set. Are you this upset with Confront (edit: or Taunt) for doing no damage? It's in the melee sets too. Just because a power is in the melee set does not mean it's primary purpose is as an attack. And even at that, it still manages to do anywhere from more damage than other melee AoEs (looking at Savage Melee's Savage Leap per Mids because I'm not tackling the formula on CoD) to 2/3's the damage of most melee PBAoEs to half the damage of some melee AoEs. While granting something rather critical to the character, lots of END to fuel their attacks and defenses depending on how many enemies are around them. (So yes, that makes the Dark Melee set a fairly unique set among the melee sets that you are looking to make not unique any more because you keep treating Dark Consumption like its primary purpose is an attack that those 'silly, foolish devs' back on live screwed up the design for.)

 

I'm with @TheZag. Dark Melee is a fun set that functions differently than most other sets and has some rather interesting modes of play that it will not have any more if the current devs turn it into an attack primary that just happens to grant some END like you want.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Rudra

[arcane]

Yeah, I might be more inclined to think charitably if the OP could speak without being so dogmatic, but overall I’m not seeing a need here.

[A.I.D.A.]

22 minutes ago, arcane said:

Yeah, I might be more inclined to think charitably if the OP could speak without being so dogmatic, but overall I’m not seeing a need here.

 

I might be more inclined to think charitably if the OP could speak.

 

That's not speech, that's word salad.

[WindDemon21]

20 minutes ago, arcane said:

Yeah, I might be more inclined to think charitably if the OP could speak without being so dogmatic, but overall I’m not seeing a need here.

The entire gameplay is based off of numbers, math, and generally having sets perform equally if albeit differently depending on the tasks/enemies, it's all based on "rules" that sets and powers follow. This is why over there years there have been so many tweaks, updates, changes etc to bring sets in line with each other. That is a pretty hard and fast rule of the game so no set or power is inherently under or overpowered as to make it so terrible to play, or so strong that there is no point in playing another (of course that's not the case cause altitis/flavor/boredom etc but you know what I mean with that phrase.)

[A.I.D.A.]

But it's not terrible to play, it's just being played terribly by someone who would rather cry all over the forums than get better at the game.

 

We've gone through four pages of multiple people handing you the actual numbers and maths on a silver platter, and you still refuse to acknowledge them, and pretend that your misconceptions are true.

Edited September 21, 2023 by A.I.D.A.

[WindDemon21]

2 minutes ago, A.I.D.A. said:

 

I might be more inclined to think charitably if the OP could speak.

 

That's not speech, that's word salad.

I've thought many times over the years I'm probably on the spectrum (in the sense of the pathways the brain makes for thought and: incoming:) and definitely have ADD, hence the use of so many brackets and sentence structure that follows my thought process as to not make sure to try to not forget to include anything. Doesn't mean in the slightest I don't know what i'm talking about and provide proper data, context, etc, and personal attacks on the matter does nothing to further the discussion on topic.

 

I can see where that thought comes from truly (Ie ,many brackets, interjected thoughts etc) but the wording/sentence structure is far from being so incoherent that anyone shouldn't be able to easily understand.

[A.I.D.A.]

No, it's just that you don't actually know what you're talking about, you haven't given a single correct data point in four pages, and nothing you say makes any sense.

[WindDemon21]

Just now, A.I.D.A. said:

But it's not terrible to play, it's just being played terribly by someone who would rather cry all over the forums than get better at the game.

I can play exceedingly well, build well, and am easily the go to guy of anyone I know who needs power/slotting/build advice. (and before you say it, no, that doesn't mean "poor noobies that he's helping" I know what i'm talking about, whether you agree or not is another matter) It's that fact that actually makes these things so big, because I more than most get extra annoyed when sets or powers are not performing properly as they should and also in comparison ot other power sets. Trying to personally attack my proficiency in a set or power does nothing to help your argument except to say that you can't think of anything better and are instead resulting to personal attacks instead of discussing the topic at hand.

[WindDemon21]

2 minutes ago, A.I.D.A. said:

No, it's just that you don't actually know what you're talking about, you haven't given a single correct data point in four pages, and nothing you say makes any sense.

Then you clearly are not reading, or comprehending properly.

 

Edit" which for the record, I have given correct data in every thread, if you don't agree on something that I suggested that's another issue, but I have not given any improper stat here for things existing already in the game. Perhaps you're misunderstanding what was said, reread again properly.

Edited September 21, 2023 by WindDemon21

[A.I.D.A.]

5 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

I can play exceedingly well, build well, and am easily the go to guy of anyone I know who needs power/slotting/build advice. (and before you say it, no, that doesn't mean "poor noobies that he's helping" I know what i'm talking about, whether you agree or not is another matter) It's that fact that actually makes these things so big, because I more than most get extra annoyed when sets or powers are not performing properly as they should and also in comparison ot other power sets. Trying to personally attack my proficiency in a set or power does nothing to help your argument except to say that you can't think of anything better and are instead resulting to personal attacks instead of discussing the topic at hand.

 

But Dark Consumption and Consume aren't underperforming. You just incorrectly think they are. I have never seen the Dunning Kreuger effect exemplified so clearly in one post.

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by A.I.D.A.

[WindDemon21]

3 minutes ago, A.I.D.A. said:

 

But Dark Consumption and Consume aren't underperforming. You just incorrectly think they are. I have never seen the Dunning Kreuger effect exemplified so clearly in one post.

 

And once again, you clearly are not reading everything I've stated properly. They are easily underperforming in comparison to other similar powers, and for the sets themselves. This, if anything, is more a matter of set and power standards, to which yours obviously, are much lower.

[A.I.D.A.]

They're not in similar sets, and the recharge they have right now is perfectly fine for any competently-built character using them. You are explicitly and unequivocally wrong, no matter how many times or how loudly you cry.

 

I'm reading them properly, they're just incorrect. Your entire thought process on this issue is misguided.

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by A.I.D.A.

[WindDemon21]

Just now, A.I.D.A. said:

They're not in similar sets, and the recharge they have right now is perfectly fine for any competently-built character using them. You are explicitly and unequivocally wrong, no matter how many times or how loudly you cry.

I'm not, but it's ok if it doesn't bother YOU. Have fun with it, I on the other hand see where it's sub-par and will try to get the powers fixed properly.

[Rudra]

11 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

And once again, you clearly are not reading everything I've stated properly. They are easily underperforming in comparison to other similar powers, and for the sets themselves. This, if anything, is more a matter of set and power standards, to which yours obviously, are much lower.

And as @Luminara pointed out, the only powers actually similar to Consume and Dark Consumption are Consume and Dark Consumption. You are citing things like Dull Pain (which only does +Max HP) and saying that Consume doesn't even keep up with it. (It shouldn't. Consume grants END, Recovery, +Max HP, and END Drain Resist. Not a good comparison.) Then you go on about Dark Consumption not keeping up with its peers (of which it really doesn't have any) because the recharge and damage are too low for the attack 'it obviously is' regardless of how many times you are told it is not meant as an attack primary.

 

Edit: Sorry, Dull Pain also has an upfront heal component. Still not comparable to Consume.

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to correct "an" to "on".

[WindDemon21]

14 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And as @Luminara pointed out, the only powers actually similar to Consume and Dark Consumption are Consume and Dark Consumption. You are citing things like Dull Pain (which only does +Max HP) and saying that Consume doesn't even keep up with it. (It shouldn't. Consume grants END, Recovery, +Max HP, and END Drain Resist. Not a good comparison.) Then you go an about Dark Consumption not keeping up with its peers (of which it really doesn't have any) because the recharge and damage are too low for the attack 'it obviously is' regardless of how many times you are told it is not meant as an attack primary.

Regarding Dc, as in how it performs compared to other sets, regarding more as an attack as it is in an attack set, but also obviously including it's end gain capabilities as well, it's still out of balance.

 

On consume, it does have equivalents (power sink, energy absorption, power drain, energy drain etc), and again it was, and is meant for, and should be expected, mainly as an end gain ability. The drain resist, other sets with end powers get as well, its only more because it's not in an auto which is fine tbh, also, those other said powers also grant special stuff on top of the end gain, ie defense except power sink, which also should have some extra benefit tbh). The max hp, was an addition to help the SET in regards to largely the nerf to burn, but it as i've pointed out just as easily could have gone into any other power, most notably (and god I wish for this discussion) in temperature protection. Trying to stuff everything into consume is not a justification for it not properly doing it's main purpose and not getting fixed properly when max hp was added to the *set* just because they randomly chose to stuff it in consume.

 

Regarding the recovery for example, just because it HAS recovery, doesn't mean that it equals the benefit of the other powers at 60s recharge. You could say a power *has* anything, but if the value or duration are so low compared to the powers recharge and how many targets it needs, it pretty much doesn't matter that it's even there.

 

In this case, for such a short duration and such a low amount of recovery per target, it's pretty much there already. And in regards to the max hp, you can't just say now "because it's there", without accounting that the power didn't properly in comparison have proper stats already before to help the set out on endurance as it should have. Again, I REALLY wish they would have just put the max hp in temp protection and been done with this part of the conversation trying to say that it being in consume versus any other power, justifies consume remaining on such a terrible recharge.

 

Edit: regarding the max hp as well, having the shorter recharge to make the proper stats for its end gain capabilities, also does nothing to change the max hp aspect generally, as it's already only at auto values, and easily perma-able anyway (just as if it was in an auto), so changing the stats for the endurance, would not change any aspect of the max hp addition, so even with it being in consume, is still a pretty moot point to the discussion.

Edited September 21, 2023 by WindDemon21

[Rudra]

Energy Drain does not grant END drain resistance.  https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=scrapper_defense.energy_aura.energy_drain&at=scrapper

Power Drain does not grant END drain resistance. https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=sentinel_defense.energy_aura.power_drain&at=sentinel

Power Sink does not grant END drain resistance. https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=scrapper_defense.electric_armor.power_sink&at=scrapper

Energy Absorption does not grant END drain resistance. https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=scrapper_defense.ice_armor.energy_absorption&at=scrapper

 

Neither do any of those powers grant +Max HP.

 

And before you say yet again that the +Max HP can be plugged into an auto power as part of removing it from Consume, firstly, Dull Pain is not an auto power and it is your go to reference, and secondly, it is currently part of Consume and should be factored as such.

 

Edit: I also note that you still have not referenced any of the math about that "so low" +Recovery bit that has been provided. You know, the one that shows that 'meager' +5% Recovery isn't meager? That even using the END/second rate can get up to 2.755 END/target drained on top of the up front +END the power grants even before you get into any global effects or how that stacks with all the other +Recovery buffs players build into their characters. +5% Recovery is garbage per you. So let's toss out all the +4%, +2.5%, and other recovery buffs. You will probably counter that those last constantly as opposed to the 15 seconds of Consume. Sure, but for those 15 seconds, that +5% per target drained is still adding to every other +Recovery effect built into the character.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Rudra

[TheZag]

+hp in a click power cant just as easily have been in an auto power.  Heal set enhancement procs are auto in an auto power and react to the click of click powers.  That is very much not the same and would be a buff for me since i never run out of end and dont have to click the end recovery powers in the first place.

 

[WindDemon21]

13 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Energy Drain does not grant END drain resistance.  https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=scrapper_defense.energy_aura.energy_drain&at=scrapper

Power Drain does not grant END drain resistance. https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=sentinel_defense.energy_aura.power_drain&at=sentinel

Power Sink does not grant END drain resistance. https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=scrapper_defense.electric_armor.power_sink&at=scrapper

Energy Absorption does not grant END drain resistance. https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=scrapper_defense.ice_armor.energy_absorption&at=scrapper

 

Neither do any of those powers grant +Max HP.

 

And before you say yet again that the +Max HP can be plugged into an auto power as part of removing it from Consume, firstly, Dull Pain is not an auto power and it is your go to reference, and secondly, it is currently part of Consume and should be factored as such.

 

Edit: I also note that you still have not referenced any of the math about that "so low" +Recovery bit that has been provided. You know, the one that shows that 'meager' +5% Recovery isn't meager? That even using the END/second rate can get up to 2.755 END/target drained on top of the up front +END the power grants even before you get into any global effects or how that stacks with all the other +Recovery buffs players build into their characters. +5% Recovery is garbage per you. So let's toss out all the +4%, +2.5%, and other recovery buffs. You will probably counter that those last constantly as opposed to the 15 seconds of Consume. Sure, but for those 15 seconds, that +5% per target drained is still adding to every other +Recovery effect built into the character.

Yes, which is why you compare both the power, and the SET. As I mentioned already those sets also get end drain resistance, simply in other powers which are automatic. Which is where the higher number of resistance is more justified in a power like this. And EA in ice, sort of does via cappable energy defense which means you hardly ever get HIT with the drains in the first place (a quite glaring hole in most resist based armors in general tbh not having higher debuff resists in general for certain things).

 

Dull pain also grants much higher max hp than autos, or consume. Most of the only reference to dull pain in any post i've said, is that in fact, the power is NOT like dull pain, given the values, as it's closer to any auto max hp power instead.

 

As to the recovery again, in addition to usually a few seconds when consume is first used where that recovery doesn't do anyting, IE a recovery tic would occur anyway when you're already at full end after using consume, that is still extremely meager considering similar powers and it's duration, Those other recovery boost, which in all regards are still rather small, but they DO stack, but more importantly are CONSTANTLY on. So yes, that recovery is extremely pathetic to try to justify the power in it's current recharge.

[WindDemon21]

10 minutes ago, TheZag said:

+hp in a click power cant just as easily have been in an auto power.  Heal set enhancement procs are auto in an auto power and react to the click of click powers.  That is very much not the same and would be a buff for me since i never run out of end and dont have to click the end recovery powers in the first place.

 

Kinda worded weird, but if i gathered properly to respond: Yes it certainly can, regarding any heal set procs, those always go into health anyway as they are uniques, so it's not the same comparison. That really only works with auto end powers who can slot multiple of the performance shifter or power transfer procs.

[Rudra]

47 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Yes, which is why you compare both the power, and the SET. As I mentioned already those sets also get end drain resistance, simply in other powers which are automatic.

No, they don't. Ice Armor for instance, where you find Energy Absorption, has 0% END drain resistance scattered across all 9 of its powers. Energy Aura and Electric Armor do get END drain resistance, but only in their specific resistance powers. Except for Sentinel Energy Aura (which is where you find Power Drain) which again has 0% END drain resistance across all 9 of its powers.

 

So let's take a look at the sets. You want to compare the END drain resistance in Consume to the END drain resistance granted by the resistance, not the drains or defenses, of energy-based armor sets. And then claim they aren't equal so Consume needs a buff? They aren't even thematically the same or function the same. And even among the energy-based armor sets, Fiery Aura's Consume grants more END drain protection than all of Sentinel's Energy Aura. (I looked at every power in Sentinel Energy Aura on CoD. Not a single one had X% resist (Endurance).)

 

Your argument boils down to you don't like that Consume and Dark Consumption take so long to recharge out of the box, and ignoring everything other than the +END in Consume, they are under-powered. Dark Consumption because you think it is not a good enough attack and Consume because you think the only thing that matters from it is the +END and everything else should be ignored or moved into other powers, preferably auto powers so they constantly grant those benefits which would make them so OP as to break the set with absolutely any amount of enhancement slotting. And even when you propose a nerf for balance, like you did with Dark Consumption to reduce the total END gained to 83.33 END with 10 targets drained instead of 125 gained from 5 targets, it is still a huge buff because you want it to have a 40 second recharge which means it can be used primarily as an attack that also happens to grant up to 83.33 END before you slot END enhancements and would be able to use it every 13.33 seconds, using the example that we can already get the 3 minute recharge down to 1 minute with ease as a reference for that math. The game is already ridiculously easy. Stop asking to make it even easier.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to add missing "to".