Fix IO sets for ice slick/patch

[WindDemon21]

Surprized this wasn't fixed when even ice slick was changed to have the small DOT and to take ranged aoe sets, but it's always been odd these powers especially haven't been able to slot slows at least, and knockback as well (if you wanted it to work like a bonfire effect, which can honestly be useful to slot for kb to have it do that with the slow+kb like when combining bonfire/glue arrow/tar patch etc)

 

So would be great if these powers were fixed so that they could take both slow and KB sets and enhancements FINALLY.

[Ghost]

I’m glad they dont

Now I don’t have to waste slots - just throw an end red each one, and call it a day

[A.I.D.A.]

Ice Patch already knocks everything down. I'm glad with throwing a basic recharge IO in there (my end management is usually plenty fine enough that I'd rather have more ice patches than cheaper ones). Not every power needs game-changing slotting possibilities. It's okay to have a few one-slot wonders.

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by A.I.D.A.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

4 hours ago, A.I.D.A. said:

 one-slot wonders.

 

 

hahahaha,

that phrase is gold

I'm totally gonna use that 🙂 

[WindDemon21]

On 10/26/2023 at 12:05 AM, A.I.D.A. said:

Ice Patch already knocks everything down. I'm glad with throwing a basic recharge IO in there (my end management is usually plenty fine enough that I'd rather have more ice patches than cheaper ones). Not every power needs game-changing slotting possibilities. It's okay to have a few one-slot wonders.

 

News flash, you can still slot it that way even if they fix the sets/enhancements that go in it :P.

 

But yeah these two powers REALLY should be taking these sets and enhancements. Really dumb they didn't fix it yet when slick was looked at.

 

Edit, also, one of the main things that you WOULD one slot wonder in it, would be a slow enhancement, and you can't even do that, it literally makes ZERO sense.

Edited November 1, 2023 by WindDemon21

[Rudra]

11 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Edit, also, one of the main things that you WOULD one slot wonder in it, would be a slow enhancement, and you can't even do that, it literally makes ZERO sense.

Why would Ice Slick or Ice Patch need slow enhancements? They already have a -90% running speed effect and there is a bottom to how much you can slow targets.

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pets.iceslick.iceslick&at=minion_pets

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pets.icepatch.icepatch&at=minion_pets

 

As compared to opposed to say Snow Storm's -50% (https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=corruptor_buff.cold_domination.snow_storm&at=corruptor) or Siphon Speed's -62.5% running speed (https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=defender_buff.kinetics.siphon_speed&at=defender). What am I not understanding in this drive for improved slow effects on Ice Slick and Ice Patch? (Edit: Especially since neither affects recharge in any way.)

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to add missing "Why".

[WindDemon21]

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Why would Ice Slick or Ice Patch need slow enhancements? They already have a -90% running speed effect and there is a bottom to how much you can slow targets.

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pets.iceslick.iceslick&at=minion_pets

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pets.icepatch.icepatch&at=minion_pets

 

As compared to opposed to say Snow Storm's -50% (https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=corruptor_buff.cold_domination.snow_storm&at=corruptor) or Siphon Speed's -62.5% running speed (https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=defender_buff.kinetics.siphon_speed&at=defender). What am I not understanding in this drive for improved slow effects on Ice Slick and Ice Patch? (Edit: Especially since neither affects recharge in any way.)

 

Because that REALLY makes a difference when fighting anyting with any type of slow resist or, more generally anything higher than even levels. It's REALLY noticeable. Play it and try it for yourself.

 

Slow on them has been a BIG thing that should always have been allowed to slot. It's evident on ice patch, but a little less on melees but extra on blasters trying to play keep away. But Ice slick also has been a big area where the slow will keep them on the patch. Granted the set has frostbite and other slows, but that doesn't mean in the slightest that the power shouldn't be able to slot for it on it's own in the first place.

 

Likewise with KB sets/enhancements. There are uses where you can slot KB in to the power, to turn it into kb isntead of KD (granted less cause kd is generally more desired), but it turns it into a slow + bonfire basically, which is really good for keep away. Same goes for ice patch. Again less on melee types, but can help a lot on a blaster trying to play keep away.

 

Point is, the power does both slow, and knockback(down), and should be able to slot enhancements and sets for it up to the player to decide how to slot it. It's entirely dumb that you can't already.

[Rudra]

52 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Because that REALLY makes a difference when fighting anyting with any type of slow resist or, more generally anything higher than even levels. It's REALLY noticeable. Play it and try it for yourself.

 

Slow on them has been a BIG thing that should always have been allowed to slot. It's evident on ice patch, but a little less on melees but extra on blasters trying to play keep away. But Ice slick also has been a big area where the slow will keep them on the patch. Granted the set has frostbite and other slows, but that doesn't mean in the slightest that the power shouldn't be able to slot for it on it's own in the first place.

 

Likewise with KB sets/enhancements. There are uses where you can slot KB in to the power, to turn it into kb isntead of KD (granted less cause kd is generally more desired), but it turns it into a slow + bonfire basically, which is really good for keep away. Same goes for ice patch. Again less on melee types, but can help a lot on a blaster trying to play keep away.

 

Point is, the power does both slow, and knockback(down), and should be able to slot enhancements and sets for it up to the player to decide how to slot it. It's entirely dumb that you can't already.

In my experience, so mileage will vary compared to other players, as much as I enhance my slow effects, the targets I need slowed are for their attacks, not their running. And with the near constant KD from Ice Slick and Ice Patch, I don't normally care about their recharge.

 

Slotting KB sets into them changes it from KD to KB which would require me to slot a KB to KD proc to restore the KD effect, to get enhancement bonuses that don't help the power. What do I need an accuracy, damage, or increased KB boost on a power that does no damage, has no accuracy check, and does the preferred KD effect unless the KD is increased by enhancement into KB? Even on my Blasters. (Edit: Especially since my Blasters can fly, and I drop the Ice Patch under me for humor and target grouping. Non-flier Blasters I play will throw the Ice Patch on the targets' approach vector away from my character, and use the KD to keep them away. Though War Wolves do ignore the Ice Slick too often.)

 

Slotting slow sets into them will not change how quickly my targets' powers recharge because there is no -Recharge component on those powers, and they already impose a -90% running speed debuff. Coupled with their -50,000% jump height, and the only means of quickly getting off them is by not falling down, flying, or teleporting. With those pwoers already giving their -90% running speed, and the floor at which slows can get mobs to, especially if they have slow resistance, I don't see slotting slow buffs as changing anything. And the accuracy and damage components on slow sets also provide absolutely no benefit on those powers for the same reason the KB sets' accuracy and damage components are worthless on them. Ice Slick and Ice Patch aren't damaging powers. (Yes, Ice Slick has that 0.1 point of cold damage, but no amount of boosting is going to get it to anything anyone or anything is going to notice. Even if only a 1st level mob.) So there are only 2 enhancement buffs I can see that help those two powers in any functional way: recharge and endurance cost. And amazingly enough, they can slot those enhancements already. Whereas making them able to slot slow and/or KB sets means players are going to be wasting enhancements on buffs that do absolutely nothing for those two powers.

 

Let's take Ice Mistral's Torment for example. Slotting the full set will grant the power a +89.93% damage boost (which is completely wasted for doing no damage), a +39.75% accuracy boost (which is completely wasted for having no attack hit check), a +53% slow boost (which is of questionable benefit since you are starting at -90% running speed and -50,000% jumping height), to gain the benefit of +45.05% recharge (which can pretty much be made up with a single dedicated recharge enhancement) and 66.25% endurance discount (which took 3 enhancements to get but could be at 83.32% with just 2 dedicated enhancements.) Net total? Ice Mistral's Torment takes 3 enhancements to get +45.05% recharge and 66.25% endurance reduction whereas just slotting IOs will at 3 enhancements get you to +42.4% recharge and 83.32% endurance reduction.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Rudra

[WindDemon21]

18 minutes ago, Rudra said:

In my experience, so mileage will vary compared to other players, as much as I enhance my slow effects, the targets I need slowed are for their attacks, not their running. And with the near constant KD from Ice Slick and Ice Patch, I don't normally care about their recharge.

 

Slotting KB sets into them changes it from KD to KB which would require me to slot a KB to KD proc to restore the KD effect, to get enhancement bonuses that don't help the power. What do I need an accuracy, damage, or increased KB boost on a power that does no damage, has no accuracy check, and does the preferred KD effect unless the KD is increased by enhancement into KB? Even on my Blasters. (Edit: Especially since my Blasters can fly, and I drop the Ice Patch under me for humor and target grouping. Non-flier Blasters I play will throw the Ice Patch on the targets' approach vector away from my character, and use the KD to keep them away. Though War Wolves do ignore the Ice Slick too often.)

 

Slotting slow sets into them will not change how quickly my targets' powers recharge because there is no -Recharge component on those powers, and they already impose a -90% running speed debuff. Coupled with their -50,000% jump height, and the only means of quickly getting off them is by not falling down, flying, or teleporting. With those pwoers already giving their -90% running speed, and the floor at which slows can get mobs to, especially if they have slow resistance, I don't see slotting slow buffs as changing anything. And the accuracy and damage components on slow sets also provide absolutely no benefit on those powers for the same reason the KB sets' accuracy and damage components are worthless on them. Ice Slick and Ice Patch aren't damaging powers. (Yes, Ice Slick has that 0.1 point of cold damage, but no amount of boosting is going to get it to anything anyone or anything is going to notice. Even if only a 1st level mob.) So there are only 2 enhancement buffs I can see that help those two powers in any functional way: recharge and endurance cost. And amazingly enough, they can slot those enhancements already. Whereas making them able to slot slow and/or KB sets means players are going to be wasting enhancements on buffs that do absolutely nothing for those two powers.

 

Let's take Ice Mistral's Torment for example. Slotting the full set will grant the power a +89.93% damage boost (which is completely wasted for doing no damage), a +39.75% accuracy boost (which is completely wasted for having no attack hit check), a +53% slow boost (which is of questionable benefit since you are starting at -90% running speed and -50,000% jumping height), to gain the benefit of +45.05% recharge (which can pretty much be made up with a single dedicated recharge enhancement) and 66.25% endurance discount (which took 3 enhancements to get but could be at 83.32% with just 2 dedicated enhancements.) Net total? Ice Mistral's Torment takes 3 enhancements to get +45.05% recharge and 66.25% endurance reduction whereas just slotting IOs will at 3 enhancements get you to +42.4% recharge and 83.32% endurance reduction.

You're looking at it all wrong. Yes, in general most of the slow sets REALLY need revised, but most of the benefit would be if going for bonuses, or just slow slotting itself, and some damage procs if one were to choose. Those would be more useful on ice patch given the recharge and smaller radius than slick of course.

 

Both however as mentioned can use the slow to MUCH better effect still. So options are never bad, especially when the powers should have always been able to accept those sets/enhancements.

 

For KB, I mentioned the use for slotting for those that wanna play "keep away" by changing the kd to KB, again not as used versus slow slotting, but still, give the options for the powers.

 

IT would also allow another damage proc (ice patch mostly), and force feedback proc. Where given the rech on both and how much you cast it, woudln't be huge, but would still help as well anyway at least. Again, more options are always good, especially when the powers should have already had these options.

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

You're looking at it all wrong. Yes, in general most of the slow sets REALLY need revised, but most of the benefit would be if going for bonuses, or just slow slotting itself, and some damage procs if one were to choose. Those would be more useful on ice patch given the recharge and smaller radius than slick of course.

 

Both however as mentioned can use the slow to MUCH better effect still. So options are never bad, especially when the powers should have always been able to accept those sets/enhancements.

 

For KB, I mentioned the use for slotting for those that wanna play "keep away" by changing the kd to KB, again not as used versus slow slotting, but still, give the options for the powers.

 

IT would also allow another damage proc (ice patch mostly), and force feedback proc. Where given the rech on both and how much you cast it, woudln't be huge, but would still help as well anyway at least. Again, more options are always good, especially when the powers should have already had these options.

So you want them to be able to be turned into proc cannons then. More power to the current meta. Whatever. I'm fine with more options, but also bear in mind, you're only going to get 3 damage procs on them: Explosive Strike's smashing damage, Ice Mistral's Torment's cold damage, and Impeded Swiftness' smashing damage. And the set bonuses from Force Feedback can be found in other sets that you will have to take their enhancement slots away from to feed Ice Slick or Ice Patch, so I don't get the desire for that either. Whatever though. This isn't my hill and I made my points. Let players build their characters however they want. I'm not against the OP, I just don't understand it.

[WindDemon21]

11 minutes ago, Rudra said:

So you want them to be able to be turned into proc cannons then. More power to the current meta. Whatever. I'm fine with more options, but also bear in mind, you're only going to get 3 damage procs on them: Explosive Strike's smashing damage, Ice Mistral's Torment's cold damage, and Impeded Swiftness' smashing damage. And the set bonuses from Force Feedback can be found in other sets that you will have to take their enhancement slots away from to feed Ice Slick or Ice Patch, so I don't get the desire for that either. Whatever though. This isn't my hill and I made my points. Let players build their characters however they want. I'm not against the OP, I just don't understand it.

Able to USE them, yes, given their recharge and use they woudln't be that heavily proc hitting anyway. But most importantly the powers should be able to enhance the effects and get bonuses from those sets as well.

 

Even as a two hit wonder, an end/rech and FF proc in either would still be nice to get  some end and rech and movement bonus/rech boost. Again, options/bonuses.

 

Edit, also another big thing, is slotting the SA kb-kd proc for ice patch. Because then you can stack the patches, and they won't stack kbs and knock enemies OUT of them due to the KD stacking, which would provide more mitigation via two patches to knocdown since the patches have target caps. Let's say you're on a stone/ice tank, wanting to build for team saftey. FF end/rech, FF proc, SA kb-kd, and kb-rech (another set that should have better options via actual stats like this being end/rech instead but i digress) That would be really useful for the tank to get some end redux on it, some rech to use it more, 15% movement bonus, and FF proc. Other 2 slots can boost 2 50 slow IOs to max the slow too.

 

Again, options.

Edited November 1, 2023 by WindDemon21

[Ghost]

So you want the possibility of additional set bonuses, by taking slots away from other powers with set bonuses (thus eliminating those set bonuses) - 

or am I misunderstanding one of the reasons given?

[WindDemon21]

4 minutes ago, Ghost said:

So you want the possibility of additional set bonuses, by taking slots away from other powers with set bonuses (thus eliminating those set bonuses) - 

or am I misunderstanding one of the reasons given?

You're misunderstanding, options FOR set bonuses from the sets. "taking away" from other powers, really depends on the build itself. And options for procs as well. Again, even just an end/rech and FF proc would be a lot nicer than just a recharge or just an end reduction on it (especially if you want both for less slots) heck, even just the end/rech on the base slot which you can't do now. And also again, even just a slow enhancement in it makes a big difference against +2-4s, but the sets should always have been an option for those two powers as well for all the reasons I've mentioned.

[Ghost]

2 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

You're misunderstanding, options FOR set bonuses from the sets. "taking away" from other powers, really depends on the build itself. And options for procs as well. Again, even just an end/rech and FF proc would be a lot nicer than just a recharge or just an end reduction on it (especially if you want both for less slots) heck, even just the end/rech on the base slot which you can't do now. And also again, even just a slow enhancement in it makes a big difference against +2-4s, but the sets should always have been an option for those two powers as well for all the reasons I've mentioned.

Thanks for clarifying.

For me, this is just something I can’t get onboard with.  Maybe for selfish reasons, but I like when I come across good powers like this, that I don’t have to “waste” slots on.  I can throw a recharge or end reduction in it, and then use the slots in other powers.

I already struggle at times slotting some toons the way I want, so when a power like this comes along, I’m very happy.

[WindDemon21]

Just now, Ghost said:

Thanks for clarifying.

For me, this is just something I can’t get onboard with.  Maybe for selfish reasons, but I like when I come across good powers like this, that I don’t have to “waste” slots on.  I can throw a recharge or end reduction in it, and then use the slots in other powers.

I already struggle at times slotting some toons the way I want, so when a power like this comes along, I’m very happy.

You still don't, you can still slot it the same way you always have if you don't deem any of the slotting necessary, but doens't mean that these powers SHOULDN'T have the ability to do so. It's literally in what they do, especially slows.

 

Trust me i get what you're saying, I make and play SO many builds, and i'll still have builds and combos where I'll still only keep the powers one slotted. But for some combos, the OPTIONS to slot those sets/procs/slows/kb, can be invaluable like in that stone/ice tank scenario i mentioned. Or even just the FF proc in ice patch for armor sets that need all the recharge they can get like regen etc. Options (esp when they already shoudl be there for these powers) are not bad.

[arcane]

As I’ve said before, I’m not inclined to be charitable towards any of this poster’s suggestions until he learns how to express himself in a measured way. 
 

The constant dogmatic “I’m always right and it’s mindblowing the devs haven’t followed my suggestions yet” act is tiresome at best.

Edited November 2, 2023 by arcane

[WindDemon21]

4 hours ago, arcane said:

As I’ve said before, I’m not inclined to be charitable towards any of this poster’s suggestions until he learns how to express himself in a measured way. 
 

The constant dogmatic “I’m always right and it’s mindblowing the devs haven’t followed my suggestions yet” act is tiresome at best.

Your responses are also tiresome and providing zero feedback for the actual thread. You could simply choose to ignore it then if that's your perogative. This literally has nothing to do with this thread at all.

 

And It's not even "my" suggestion technically. It's LITERALLY what the powers do and should be slottable for. The devs even did a round of fixing IOs for some powers I'm simply notifying them that these powers were missed and providing reasons why the options should be there. Please feel free to block me then unless you actually start contributing to the conversation properly because I'd rather not see another one of these posts that have nothing to do with the actual topic at hand and derail them.

 

Edit: Also, not liking HOW someone is saying something, isn't changing what is being said either. To give an unfavorable response to the actual topic at hand simply based on that is quite pathetic.

Edited November 2, 2023 by WindDemon21