Thermal Radiation T9 Discussion

[Hedgefund]

I'm not "good at Stats and equations"?  Don't tell my employers over the years, that's what they've paid me for.  Regardless I'm not going to do what you're looking for so good luck finding this good at Stats and equations person.

[drbuzzard]

It should be noted that Time also sell buffs recharge so that 3 in the uptime ratio is actually lower. There's really only 2 outliers, thermal and pain. 

 

If we compare the three after reasonable recharge builds (perma hasten) the uptime/recharge

 

Pain 30/32

Time 30/21 (1/ (1+1+.7+.5))

Thermal 40/40

 

Pain is actually the loser, but it has more self buffing utility. Also, as mentioned before on a fast moving team shorter duration is more useful. You can improve the ratios even more if you add in spiritual alpha of course. 

 

[Renatos1023]

On 12/18/2023 at 12:51 PM, Hedgefund said:

I like the above, but wanted to present a little bit differently, to compare like powers, rather than T9s.  Most all buff/debuff sets have some aoe -def/-res power.  Some, like Empathy, Kinetics and Electric Affinity don't have any.   Others have maybe something that only does -res (Sonic, Nature) and others still may need multiple powers to provide those effects (TA, Rad and to a lesser degree, Poison)

 

The intent is not to just say "This number > that number so the set with that number is better" but rather a starting point to look at outliers and ask "does the rest of this kit make up for being an outlier?"

 

I'm too lazy to worry about formatting and columns and the like, so a screenshot will have to do:

 

 

So I see 3 outliers, Pain Dom, Thermal and Time, with PD having the highest ratio of base recharge to duration.  Thermal benefits from having a long duration, which isn't really all that helpful for spawn-to-spawn fights.  For that you want a lower base recharge and that's where PD has an advantage to Thermal.

 

In no way am I considering this some thorough analysis, but when I ask myself the question "does the rest of the set make up for relatively low uptime?" I have a gut reaction of 

Time?  Absolutely

Pain Dom?  Maybe

Thermal?  Nope.

 

I think this is super helpful in comparing those powers that are similar (and not just comparing T9s). With its current stats, Melt Armor (MA) shouldn't be a T9 (this type of power comes well before T9 in other sets and its comparisons have better stats). MA's recharge (and placement at T9) really does sink the set. There are no reliable debuffs (ala. auto-hit and good like SLeet/FR) in Thermal -- and while the buffs in Thermal are good, I don't think they overcome the complete disaster that Thermal's debuffs are.  And I agree with your analysis that "the rest of the set" does not make up for Thermal's T9 to be so crappy. I also have to say that I don't take Thaw or the Rez, (I might have said that before but I'm too lazy to re-read). 

 

I know people want to compare set power-by-power and by the number. I am not a "numbers" person in general - I make my builds by feel, and by playing them. I don't use Mids (it bugged out on my laptop and haven't figured out how to replace it). I can say with my feeling of usefulness on my 46 Thermal/ is nowhere near that on my 41 Trick Arrow/ (nor is it near most of my other Defenders). 

 

I want to love Thermal/, I just can't. 

 

 

[bustacap]

EMP arrow's Ally shield is beyond perma. On recast it replaces and doesn't stack. This provides resist, mez prot, and end drain prot. Think electrical affinity's bubble without the KB prot. 

 

The debuffs from it are time gated and not perma. It is the sets big -regen power. -500 regen for 15 seconds and -500 regen for 30 seconds. Combined with the rest of the set most teams are killing the thing in that 30 second time frame. I think it has the damage to robots thing also. 

[Lazarus]

Thermal is (imo) best used on MM and TROLLERS,..sets were u have pets to use ur buffs on.

 

I would also add that the debuffs are further effective when counting pets.

 

As for the 2 debuff powers having overly long recharge, I agree

 

Come to think on it,..the overly long recharge of CONSUME in FA,.. maybe fire sets had some dev hate way back in development.

 

 

[tidge]

10 hours ago, Lazarus said:

Thermal is (imo) best used on MM and TROLLERS,..sets were u have pets to use ur buffs on.

 

I won't argue that having henchman give Thermal "more to do", but I kinda hate Thermal on my MM.

[Renatos1023]

On 12/20/2023 at 9:53 AM, bustacap said:

EMP arrow's Ally shield is beyond perma. On recast it replaces and doesn't stack. This provides resist, mez prot, and end drain prot. Think electrical affinity's bubble without the KB prot. 

 

The debuffs from it are time gated and not perma. It is the sets big -regen power. -500 regen for 15 seconds and -500 regen for 30 seconds. Combined with the rest of the set most teams are killing the thing in that 30 second time frame. I think it has the damage to robots thing also. 

(Without utterly ridiculous levels of recharge) Can I ask how EMP Arrow's shield is perma in a normal world? EMP Arrow itself has a 5-minute recharge. Yes, according to the data in-game its buff has a 4-minute duration -- but outside of an AV, you are never getting that full duration, because no one is standing in the same place for any significant amount of time. Say you get it down to a 2 minute recharge -- most single-mob battles last less than 30 seconds. You are lucky to get a full minute of its buff (in my opinion; and likely far less) on 98% of content. 

 

I guess I don't know where you were going with that argument. 

[bustacap]

Im not saying use it at the same spot but things like Romi, aeon, and MLTF can be used on 2 different avs in order. The mez prot works like elec against Rom and is perma there. 

 

Also perma in MS raid.

Edited December 23, 2023 by bustacap

[Renatos1023]

On 12/22/2023 at 7:12 PM, bustacap said:

Im not saying use it at the same spot but things like Romi, aeon, and MLTF can be used on 2 different avs in order. The mez prot works like elec against Rom and is perma there. 

 

Also perma in MS raid.

So, I am always willing to admit when I am wrong. And having finally done the ITF with my now 50 TA defender, I can say that I now understand where you were coming from. 

Having perma-mez protection against Rommy is a blessing that I didn't know I had until I used TA's T9 like you said. 

But since this is a Thermal thread, I will turn back to that comparison.

IMO this makes TA that much better than Thermal. The T9 is actually useful in elongated battles. And Thermal's T9 would be crap against Rommy -- my Thermal has been shelved in the mid-40s since I started my TA.

[Renatos1023]

Not trying to necro my post, but it looks like one of our least favorite T9s is getting a buff. A nice recharge reduction from 150 to 100 seconds is on Beta. I was hoping to see some more in the buffage department, but this is a decent start. With decent recharge, can at least be an every other mob power.