Thermal Radiation T9 Discussion

[Renatos1023]

In my quest to get a Lv.50 of every Defender primary, I am now on Thermal (Traps, Trick Arrow, Kinetics, Poison, and Pain left). I just hit 40 on my Thermal/Fire Defender. It has been a fun ride and Thermal is a mixed bag. I've enjoyed it so far, but can't help but notice that the T9 seems underpowered compared to other powers (that aren't even T9). Here is my gripe, please let me know if I am wrong, always happy to hear opinions:

 

Melt Armor:

• Base Debuff: -25% Def, -30% Res; No slow, or any other debuff
• Needs accuracy (not auto-hit per the two powers below) (This is my perception, if the debuffs are auto-hit, please let me know)
• Base Recharge: 2:30

 

Sleet:

• Base Debuff: -30% Def, -30% Res; good slow, +KD
• Due to mechanics, might as well be auto-hit, no Acc needed
• Base Recharge: 1:00

 

Freezing Rain:

• Base Debuff: -30% Def, -35% Res; better slow than Sleet, +KD
• Due to mechanics, might as well be auto-hit, no Acc needed
• Base Recharge: 1:00

 

Melt Armor is worse off in every category. Its debuff is slightly lower, it needs acc, it has a significantly higher recharge, and it has no other side debuffs. I have kitted out Cold Dom/ and Storm/ Defenders. And while the Thermal journey has been fun so far, it just doesn't seem to measure up. I am going to push to 50, because I want a 50 of every primary, but Thermal/ just seems confused. Maybe if Melt Armor's recharge was lower so that it could be popped off more, even with the need for slotted Acc., that could help the situation.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Renatos1023
copyedit

[arcane]

Sleet / Freezing Rain are both pretty overpowered right now. Compare to Anguishing Cry, Slowed Response, etc and you’ll see Melt Armor is just fine.
 

You also can’t compare powers one to one like that. That’s not how this game’s balance works. The whole set has to be considered.

[Renatos1023]

7 hours ago, arcane said:

Sleet / Freezing Rain are both pretty overpowered right now. Compare to Anguishing Cry, Slowed Response, etc and you’ll see Melt Armor is just fine.
 

You also can’t compare powers one to one like that. That’s not how this game’s balance works. The whole set has to be considered.

 

I know you can't compare one power to one power and decide that one set is OP or another is bad. But you can go ahead and compare all of Cold Dom. to all of Thermal Rad. Generally, defense shields are better than resist shields. While Cold doesn't have a heal, it has the +HP. It also has the Stealth with +Def, that Thermal has no counter for. Thermal has a Rez and Thaw, both of which are generally useless late game. Cold has perma-Sleet and close to unlimited Endurance with Heat Loss (plus more -res). 

 

My main gripe was that Thermal's biggest debuff (which has lower numbers than Sleet and FR, and no slow or KD) seems to need accuracy slotted. And, as you pointed out, this holds for Time's Slowed Response (which is also -30% res, and -25% def, same as Melt Armor). I guess I'm not sure why Time and Thermal have to suffer that built in debuff of not being auto-hit when they are already worse (number wise) and don't have the side effect of slow and KD (one would think a power named Slowed Response would have some slow built in, no?). Also, Slowed Response, while the same debuff numbers as Melt Armor, has a 90 second recharge compared to Melt Armor's 150 second. So, Melt Armor is even worse off than Slowed Response due to the extra minute of recharge. 

 

As I said, all of my mains are Defenders. I love all the sets in their own ways. I'm just trying to point out certain weaknesses as I move through all these journeys to 50. I don't see how giving both Melt Armor and Slowed Response the same auto-hit capability would make either set OP. They could pulse like Earth Control's Earthquake (minus the KD), giving them that multiple chance to hit that both Sleet and Freezing Rain have. Just my thoughts while leveling up.

 

Hit 43 on him today and can't wait to start getting some recharge slotted. He is fun, but I can't see him breaking alphas in an ITF like my Cold/Ice Defender. 

[Without_Pause]

1 hour ago, Renatos1023 said:

Generally, defense shields are better than resist shields.

Generally, people try to soft cap to important positions themselves so the Res based shields would actually benefit them more. 

[drbuzzard]

I tend to agree with this, and hence I don't play my thermal defender after getting it to 50. 

 

Since they were brought up: 

Anguishing Cry- slightly worse uptime ratio, more defense debuff. (30/120 secs base)

Slowed response: same debuffs,  better uptime ratio, easy to achieve perma especially since set adds in more recharge (30/90)

 

Though I will certainly say that waiting for a tier 9 in a set, and it being melt armor is rather a let down. There's a few T9s which make you go 'meh', and this one is certainly in that category. 

 

As for resistance debuffs without waiting (by toggle or time ratio which can be made perma via just slotting))

tar patch (30)

enervating field (30)

disruption field (30)

envenom (40 or 20)

disruption arrow (40

acid mortar (26.6)

sleet (30)

freezing rain (35)

(resistance debuff in parenthesis) 

 

Pain dom is the weak sister as a debuffer, but the set is really more focused on heal/buff. Thermal devotes 2 powers to debuff and is no prize as both require a fair amount of global recharge to keep up a lot of the time. 

 

Yes, you need to compare the whole package of a set, but thermal comes up lacking when you do that. It heals OK (has the essentials), buffs pretty well in forge, and the resistance shields are actually a nice rarity (since softcapping is so popular), but it is a really weak debuff set. It requires a lot of resources to optimize for meh returns. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by drbuzzard

[MoonSheep]

it’s a real shame Melt Armor is so crap, i have wanted to love thermal for so many years but it massively lets down the set

 

if only one change, just halving its recharge time and leaving all other attributes along would significantly improve its worth

[Scarlet Shocker]

On 12/2/2023 at 10:26 PM, MoonSheep said:

it’s a real shame Melt Armor is so crap, i have wanted to love thermal for so many years but it massively lets down the set

 

if only one change, just halving its recharge time and leaving all other attributes along would significantly improve its worth

 

Thermal is a great set. It does benefit from being paired with a set it takes synergy from. Melt Armor isn't the best on its own and nobody's going to complain if it gets a bit of a boost but the set itself stands up pretty well I feel.

[Renatos1023]

On 12/2/2023 at 9:21 AM, drbuzzard said:

Though I will certainly say that waiting for a tier 9 in a set, and it being melt armor is rather a let down. There's a few T9s which make you go 'meh', and this one is certainly in that category. 

...

 

Yes, you need to compare the whole package of a set, but thermal comes up lacking when you do that. It heals OK (has the essentials), buffs pretty well in forge, and the resistance shields are actually a nice rarity (since softcapping is so popular), but it is a really weak debuff set. It requires a lot of resources to optimize for meh returns. 

 

On 12/2/2023 at 5:26 PM, MoonSheep said:

it’s a real shame Melt Armor is so crap, i have wanted to love thermal for so many years but it massively lets down the set

 

if only one change, just halving its recharge time and leaving all other attributes along would significantly improve its worth

 

This is what I was going for. For most of the Buff/Debuff sets you wait in anticipation of the T9....but then you get Melt Armor and it is kind of 'meh' compared to similar powers (all of which are not even T9). It really does need some recharge reduction and maybe a base to-hit bonus.

 

10 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

Thermal is a great set. It does benefit from being paired with a set it takes synergy from. Melt Armor isn't the best on its own and nobody's going to complain if it gets a bit of a boost but the set itself stands up pretty well I feel.

 

I have enjoyed my playing so far with my Thermal, and I know that I am useful on the majority of teams. But I also know that this character will likely never match what my Cold/Ice defender brings to a team - and that is fine too, I just wish the performance gap wasn't so evident.

 

I also suppose that I will love Thermal once I continue my ride of getting a 50 of every Defender primary and have to roll a Traps/. 

[drbuzzard]

30 minutes ago, Renatos1023 said:

I also suppose that I will love Thermal once I continue my ride of getting a 50 of every Defender primary and have to roll a Traps/. 

 

Nah, I'd say traps is a better debuffer. The downside is the set up time on fast teams, but it's very solid on AVs (better than thermal). Also you get status protection and can softcap yourself pretty easily. 

[kelika2]

To get the ball rolling for changes you need to compare primary powers to pool powers

 

Assault (and maybe additionally Tactics) is better than Melt Armor from uptime alone

[Renatos1023]

4 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

 

Nah, I'd say traps is a better debuffer. The downside is the set up time on fast teams, but it's very solid on AVs (better than thermal). Also you get status protection and can softcap yourself pretty easily. 

 

I'm not too surprised that Traps is a better debuffer, seeing as Thermal's debuffs are definitely lacking based on recharge time alone. However, most of my Defenders are geared towards fast moving teams (as most high level teams are) and I think that is where I am going to find frustration. But let me not speak ill of a set I've never played lol. 

[Scarlet Shocker]

The thing about Thermal is that it offers so much in the round.

 

You have great shields, great for teaming. You have great control, useful in any situation and some reasonable debuffs.

 

Most of the outstanding secondaries tend to be outstanding in only one area which they excel at, whereas Thermal offers a broad base of abilities, a "jack of all trades" if you like.

 

There are others that do well also but I can tell you that as someone with a lot of controller experience, my Earth Thermal is one of the best team support toons I can bring to any fight.

 

Solo, it leaves a lot to be desired, but that's to be expected given the buffs and heals it offers a team. If I want to solo a controller I'd initially look at something like Poison or TA, but those don't offer anything like the team support of Thermal

 

Horses for courses is your watchword here. What are you hoping to achieve?

[drbuzzard]

1 hour ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

The thing about Thermal is that it offers so much in the round.

 

You have great shields, great for teaming. You have great control, useful in any situation and some reasonable debuffs.

 

Most of the outstanding secondaries tend to be outstanding in only one area which they excel at, whereas Thermal offers a broad base of abilities, a "jack of all trades" if you like.

 

 

Control? What control? Heat exhaustion? That won't sap anyone all the way, especially with the recharge. I guess you could couple it with a sapping secondary(primary), but it wouldn't carry the load. I agree the shields are a nice change, but you basically get a healer (who misses some healing tricks compared to other healers), those fairly nice shields, and debuffs with recharge issues. . 

[Scarlet Shocker]

5 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

 

Control? What control? Heat exhaustion? That won't sap anyone all the way, especially with the recharge. I guess you could couple it with a sapping secondary(primary), but it wouldn't carry the load. I agree the shields are a nice change, but you basically get a healer (who misses some healing tricks compared to other healers), those fairly nice shields, and debuffs with recharge issues. . 

 

Ok I admit I was misremembering a little and it's true that Thermal has very little control; but that kind of makes my point that Thermal is a pretty outstanding support set. It benefits from having a team, whereas other sets are far more capable solo but offer the team as a unit much less.

 

I maintain my position that if you take Thermal to fulfil its design concept, it works pretty well but you have to understand (as you would any other power in the game) it's limitations, strengths and pitfalls.

 

Sure, it can be better but what power in this game couldn't be?

 

One other point that nobody's touched on (so far as I read) in this thread is that not everyone enjoys playing OP characters and sometimes it's good to have a set or two that is percieved as being slightly underperforming to make the feeling of achievement so much more. That's a preference and not for everyone but still valid.

[Renatos1023]

15 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

 

Control? What control? Heat exhaustion? That won't sap anyone all the way, especially with the recharge. I guess you could couple it with a sapping secondary(primary), but it wouldn't carry the load. I agree the shields are a nice change, but you basically get a healer (who misses some healing tricks compared to other healers), those fairly nice shields, and debuffs with recharge issues. . 

 

10 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

Ok I admit I was misremembering a little and it's true that Thermal has very little control; but that kind of makes my point that Thermal is a pretty outstanding support set. It benefits from having a team, whereas other sets are far more capable solo but offer the team as a unit much less.

 

I maintain my position that if you take Thermal to fulfil its design concept, it works pretty well but you have to understand (as you would any other power in the game) it's limitations, strengths and pitfalls.

 

Sure, it can be better but what power in this game couldn't be?

 

One other point that nobody's touched on (so far as I read) in this thread is that not everyone enjoys playing OP characters and sometimes it's good to have a set or two that is percieved as being slightly underperforming to make the feeling of achievement so much more. That's a preference and not for everyone but still valid.

 

Yeah, there is no control in Thermal/. There might actually be negative control if you pair it with /Fire and use Rain of Fire, but I digress. The biggest issue is the shiite debuffs. The recharge is ridiculous for the T8 and T9 -- I think we can all agree on that.

 

@Scarlet Shocker I don't think there is a full design concept for Thermal/ that makes it better than other sets (most of which are inherently good). Thermal/ suffers from the fact that it just isn't good at +50. No one wants a Thermal defender. When I run 50+ task forces, I use my Cold/Ice Defender. My Sonic/ and Nature/ Defenders bring more to a team than a kitted out Thermal/ ever could. And I will spend 500 mil on making my Thermal/ good. 

 

I just think we need to accept the fact that there is a gap in Defender primaries. And that gap will not be rectified, so many sets will be relegated to 3rd and 4th tier.

 

Not trying to say I dislike my Thermal/Fire/Fire, but i know its limitations.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Renatos1023

[Scarlet Shocker]

6 hours ago, Renatos1023 said:

 

 

Yeah, there is no control in Thermal/. There might actually be negative control if you pair it with /Fire and use Rain of Fire, but I digress. The biggest issue is the shiite debuffs. The recharge is ridiculous for the T8 and T9 -- I think we can all agree on that.

 

@Scarlet Shocker I don't think there is a full design concept for Thermal/ that makes it better than other sets (most of which are inherently good). Thermal/ suffers from the fact that it just isn't good at +50. No one wants a Thermal defender. When I run 50+ task forces, I use my Cold/Ice Defender. My Sonic/ and Nature/ Defenders bring more to a team than a kitted out Thermal/ ever could. And I will spend 500 mil on making my Thermal/ good. 

 

I just think we need to accept the fact that there is a gap in Defender primaries. And that gap will not be rectified, so many sets will be relegated to 3rd and 4th tier.

 

Not trying to say I dislike my Thermal/Fire/Fire, but i know its limitations.

 

just to say I've never played a Thermal/ Defender. I have noticed some differences in synergies when comparing Controller and Defender AT power sets. I certainly wouldn't object to Devs giving it a once over but I don't feel it's as bad as you make out but I also admit I'm not really a numbers guy so...  take that however you wish 🙂

[drbuzzard]

19 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

Ok I admit I was misremembering a little and it's true that Thermal has very little control; but that kind of makes my point that Thermal is a pretty outstanding support set. It benefits from having a team, whereas other sets are far more capable solo but offer the team as a unit much less.

 

I maintain my position that if you take Thermal to fulfil its design concept, it works pretty well but you have to understand (as you would any other power in the game) it's limitations, strengths and pitfalls.

 

Sure, it can be better but what power in this game couldn't be?

 

One other point that nobody's touched on (so far as I read) in this thread is that not everyone enjoys playing OP characters and sometimes it's good to have a set or two that is percieved as being slightly underperforming to make the feeling of achievement so much more. That's a preference and not for everyone but still valid.

 

 

I don't think thermal is awful, but it is in the bottom half of defender primaries. Obviously not every set can be the best. However they should all at least be good. I think just a reduction in recharge of the T8 and T9 would do a lot to improve the set. 

[Onlyasandwich]

25 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

just a reduction in recharge of the T8 and T9 would do a lot

I agree. It's overall a decent set, but I'm not sure where the devs thought the power budget was being spent elsewhere to justify making melt armor slightly inferior to similar powers.

 

Pain hits the same notes, but benefits from its own +res power. 

[Scarlet Shocker]

1 hour ago, drbuzzard said:

 

 

I don't think thermal is awful, but it is in the bottom half of defender primaries. Obviously not every set can be the best. However they should all at least be good. I think just a reduction in recharge of the T8 and T9 would do a lot to improve the set. 

 

I'd go along with that

[Scarlet Shocker]

I just did a very (non-scientific) test in Mids with a Thermal/Dark Defender, purely theoretical and the best I could get was to get Melt Armor down to 75 Seconds recharge. That's using Haste with two x 50+5 IOS and 4 LotGs Globals. I didn't do a full slot using purples etc because of fundamental laziness but that does strike me as being excessively poor considering that controllers can get Perma PA as a matter of course which is way and above more devastating.

 

(Yes I'm aware of the comparison of apples and oranges - see the non-science caveat above)

 

That is rapidly swinging me over to Renatos' position that Thermal is seriously lagging in overall performance

[Renatos1023]

On 12/16/2023 at 1:58 PM, Scarlet Shocker said:

I just did a very (non-scientific) test in Mids with a Thermal/Dark Defender, purely theoretical and the best I could get was to get Melt Armor down to 75 Seconds recharge. That's using Haste with two x 50+5 IOS and 4 LotGs Globals. I didn't do a full slot using purples etc because of fundamental laziness but that does strike me as being excessively poor considering that controllers can get Perma PA as a matter of course which is way and above more devastating.

 

(Yes I'm aware of the comparison of apples and oranges - see the non-science caveat above)

 

That is rapidly swinging me over to Renatos' position that Thermal is seriously lagging in overall performance

 

I've never done a numbers test like this, I just usually go off my playing experience. But this backs up the point I am trying to make. Just got my Thermal/ to 46 this weekend. While Thermal/ is on paper a jack-of-all-trades, and it is a decent buffer (not great), it really lags in the debuff department. I also have to say I do not take Thaw or the Rez, I just don't find them useful (if Thaw was AoE like the shields, maybe it'd be something to take, but who has the time to hit a team with it?). Now, I'm not saying Thermal is terrible, it just is very much, in my opinion, in like the bottom 3 of defender sets. 

 

I've also been co-leveling a Trick Arrow/Elec defender (Now Lv.37) along with my Thermal/Fire -- and I 100% feel more useful on my TA. Even without the heals and shields, I can debuff most mobs into oblivion. I do have to say, Flash Arrow has to be one of my favorite powers -- a no-aggro minus-to-hit and perception debuff with half the minus-to-hit unresistable (with 1 -to-hit IO, it sits at -11.3% to hit unresistable + another 11.3 that is resistable which is huge, as that pretty much translates into a defense buff of at minimum 12%). Even if TA's T9 is on a 5 minute recharge....I just don't need it. TA's T9 is not needed in most content just because of the volume of debuffs that come before it. I know I'm not comparing directly similar powers, but TAs debuff magnitude wholly makes up for the fact that it has no real buffs (yes, the T9 has some area-centered buffs, but they are not up every mob, nor even every other). 

 

Yes, I went off on a tangent. But I do thank you all for your input. Maybe we can get some -recharge movement on those Thermal debuffs. 🙂

Edited December 18, 2023 by Renatos1023

[Renatos1023]

On 12/16/2023 at 9:32 AM, Onlyasandwich said:

I agree. It's overall a decent set, but I'm not sure where the devs thought the power budget was being spent elsewhere to justify making melt armor slightly inferior to similar powers.

 

Pain hits the same notes, but benefits from its own +res power. 

 

I agree that Thermal/ is a decent set, I have said so myself. BUT I just wanted to fix-quote you lol: melt armor is not just "slightly" inferior to similar powers. Melt armor is "vastly" inferior to similar powers in my opinion. Melt Armor is so bad, I created a whole topic about it. 

 

And I will reiterate my thoughts on how to fix it. Knock 60 seconds off its recharge (minimum) and make it an area-targeted AoE (like Earthquake). It should pulse it's debuff at quarter-second (less?) intervals for 30 seconds (does that sound good?) to make it similar to the Freezing Rain/Sleet powers. It doesn't have to do knockdown or slow (which is why FR/Sleet are inherently better) but at least the pulsing effect would make it hit more often and be more useful. As a T9 it should at least equal these much lower tier powers (both of which are more effective), if not be better somehow. I think this fix would be super easy to implement and make Thermal a much better set, the mechanics are already there.

 

I also want to flag that while Benumb and Heat Exhaustion have the same recharge and end. cost, Benumb has better debuffs. So, even though the powers should be the same (IMO), Cold Dom., has the edge in this debuff too. Really, Thermal's debuffs are just bad compared to all similar ones. 

 

I have never played Pain on any AT, so I cannot comment on it.

[Scarlet Shocker]

So because I have no life I've just done the same exercise with all T9 Defender powers

 

Set	Power	Base Recharge (seconds)	Actual Recharge (Seconds)	Duration
Cold Domination	Heat Loss	360	180	90
Dark Miasma	Dark Servant*	240	120	240
Electrical Affinity	Amp Up	300	150	90
Empathy	Adrenalin Boost	300	150	90
Force Field	Damping Bubble	90	45	0.5**
Kinetics	Fulcrum Shift	60	30	45
Nature Affinity	Overgrowth	255	127.5	60
Pain Domination	Painbringer	300	150	90
Poison	Venomous Gas	8	4	0.75**
Radiation Emission	EM Pulse	300	150	22.35
Sonic Resonance	Liquefy	300	150	30
Storm Summoning	Lightning Storm	90	45	60
Thermal Radiation	Melt Armour	150	75	40
Time Manipulation	Chrono Shift	360	180	90
Traps	Time Bomb	360	180	21
Trick Arrow	EMP Arrow	300	150	240

 

Sorry about formatting. Getting Libre Office & forum to play nice together is beyond my capability it seems

Criteria: Figures from Mid’s Reborn 3.6.6. (HC I27 P6)

All Primary T9 powers, compared with Dark Blast and the following pool powers: Combat Jumping, Hasten, Stealth, Manoeuvres. This gives consistency and a ready comparision using single shot slots for LotG Globals. Mace Mastery taken for same reason. Thus 4x Lotg Globals +Haste. All slotted at lvl 50 with lvl 50 Ios, Hasten is 2x lvl 50+5s

 

** I have no direct experience of these (other than poison) but I presume they are ticks but some further explanation might be helpful from those who know.

 

I think there are two immediate takeaways that leap from the page at me:

There is a great disparity in efficiency of the T9s across the board. Some are clearly OP and others are seriously UP. But I also think that looking at T9s alone is probably not entirely fair comparison. We should probably look at the entire set in the round as to overall performance. That said, it's beyond my particular set of skills so I leave it at this.

I was struck that the numbers I chose seemed to reduce recharge by half. Entirely coincidental but actually makes it easier to digest.

 

 

[Hedgefund]

I like the above, but wanted to present a little bit differently, to compare like powers, rather than T9s.  Most all buff/debuff sets have some aoe -def/-res power.  Some, like Empathy, Kinetics and Electric Affinity don't have any.   Others have maybe something that only does -res (Sonic, Nature) and others still may need multiple powers to provide those effects (TA, Rad and to a lesser degree, Poison)

 

The intent is not to just say "This number > that number so the set with that number is better" but rather a starting point to look at outliers and ask "does the rest of this kit make up for being an outlier?"

 

I'm too lazy to worry about formatting and columns and the like, so a screenshot will have to do:

 

 

So I see 3 outliers, Pain Dom, Thermal and Time, with PD having the highest ratio of base recharge to duration.  Thermal benefits from having a long duration, which isn't really all that helpful for spawn-to-spawn fights.  For that you want a lower base recharge and that's where PD has an advantage to Thermal.

 

In no way am I considering this some thorough analysis, but when I ask myself the question "does the rest of the set make up for relatively low uptime?" I have a gut reaction of 

Time?  Absolutely

Pain Dom?  Maybe

Thermal?  Nope.

[Scarlet Shocker]

I presented my data raw because I'd originally begun with the hypothesis that there would be an obvious candidate for being sub-optimal.

 

That proved not to be the case - which means we have to look at it in the round against the sets as a whole, rather than single powers.

I like what you've done but I think to get a real value we need somebody good at Stats and equations to say the total value of this set is N and the best/worst power(s) within that set that contribute to that factor is Y etc