Melee Core hybrids break stealth despite not taunting

[TesTiculon]

The Melee radial tree states that it taunts enemies, while the core tree does not. From what I can see, there should be no reason for the melee core toggles to break stealth.

 

Unless they should be taunting, in which cause the ability text needs to say so.

Edited January 14 by TesTiculon

[TesTiculon]

According to City of Data the power is set to Notify Mobs "Always", but does not damage, taunt, or debuff enemies.

[Frozen Burn]

No, but it does use the mobs to buff you.  It is working as intended and not a bug.  

[TesTiculon]

Is that a rule? All other self-buff per-target auras deal damage or apply a taunt. This power specifically does not affect enemies at all.

 

If it's a logic issue, I could easily just flavor it as my character "working better under pressure", not actually consuming the essence of my enemies.

[Treacheres The Dastard]

If it doesn't affect enemies I'm not sure what they're supposed to be detecting. From a "how should this work" perspective I don't see why it should alert anyone.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, TesTiculon said:

Is that a rule? All other self-buff per-target auras deal damage or apply a taunt. This power specifically does not affect enemies at all.

 

If it's a logic issue, I could easily just flavor it as my character "working better under pressure", not actually consuming the essence of my enemies.

 

23 minutes ago, Treacheres The Dastard said:

If it doesn't affect enemies I'm not sure what they're supposed to be detecting. From a "how should this work" perspective I don't see why it should alert anyone.

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=incarnate.hybrid.melee_genome_8

Per City of Data, it does actually interact with the enemies. It counts them for determining the strength of the provided regeneration. damage resistance, and status protection buffs. So it flags the mobs as notified to your presence. (Edit: Even the passive boost from the power interacts with enemies to determine the strength of the passive regeneration boost. So yes, it notifies mobs of your presence.)

 

(Edit again: @TesTiculon, define the power however you want. The power does not state that it is consuming the essence of your enemies. It states that it uses the enemies around you to determine how much of a buff it grants you. Think of it this way. In comics, anime/cartoons, and movies, characters don't need to see an enemy, be taunted by an enemy, be debuffed by an enemy, or be harmed by an enemy to go "Oh crap. (S)he is right behind me, isn't (s)he?".)

 

Edit yet again: Also, @TesTiculon, there is a self-buff power that does not deal damage or taunt enemies and still notifies them you are there. Up To The Challenge from the Sentinel's version of Willpower. https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=sentinel_defense.willpower.up_to_the_challenge&at=sentinel

 

Edited January 15 by Rudra

[TesTiculon]

59 minutes ago, Rudra said:

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=incarnate.hybrid.melee_genome_8

Per City of Data, it does actually interact with the enemies. It counts them for determining the strength of the provided regeneration. damage resistance, and status protection buffs. So it flags the mobs as notified to your presence. (Edit: Even the passive boost from the power interacts with enemies to determine the strength of the passive regeneration boost. So yes, it notifies mobs of your presence.)

That fact that the power scales with the number of enemies nearby is not under contention. Counting an enemy does not affect the enemy.

 

59 minutes ago, Rudra said:

(Edit again: @TesTiculon, define the power however you want. The power does not state that it is consuming the essence of your enemies. It states that it uses the enemies around you to determine how much of a buff it grants you. Think of it this way. In comics, anime/cartoons, and movies, characters don't need to see an enemy, be taunted by an enemy, be debuffed by an enemy, or be harmed by an enemy to go "Oh crap. (S)he is right behind me, isn't (s)he?".)

I only said that to counter the "it doesn't make sense" argument. I don't actually care how it's explained in-world.

 

59 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Edit yet again: Also, @TesTiculon, there is a self-buff power that does not deal damage or taunt enemies and still notifies them you are there. Up To The Challenge from the Sentinel's version of Willpower. https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=sentinel_defense.willpower.up_to_the_challenge&at=sentinel

 

That doesn't seem to be true? 

 

Edited January 15 by TesTiculon

[Treacheres The Dastard]

Yes it counts them, but me counting birds on a power line isn't interacting with them. As it doesn't do anything to mobs I disagree it ought to be considered that way.

 

As far as -

54 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Think of it this way. In comics, anime/cartoons, and movies, characters don't need to see an enemy, be taunted by an enemy, be debuffed by an enemy, or be harmed by an enemy to go "Oh crap. (S)he is right behind me, isn't (s)he?".)

- goes, that seems like a contrived way to justify a weird code choice. Any actions or powers which currently don't break stealth could be argued for causing detection if mobs are granted a sixth sense.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, TesTiculon said:

That doesn't seem to be true? 

 

I'm just posting what City of Data says. It says Up To The Challenge has the always notifies mobs flag. (Edit: What would keep Up To The Challenge from notifying mobs despite the flag is that it has no radius of effect because it is a flat buff to the character. As opposed to Melee Core Embodiment's 10 feet radius aura to track the number of enemies in range.)

 

1 hour ago, TesTiculon said:

I only said that to counter the "it doesn't make sense" argument. I don't actually care how it's explained in-world.

I'm not following your statement here. The one saying it doesn't make sense is you, so I fail to understand how or why you are countering it.

 

1 hour ago, TesTiculon said:

That fact that the power scales with the number of enemies nearby is not under contention. Counting an enemy does not affect the enemy.

 

1 hour ago, Treacheres The Dastard said:

Yes it counts them, but me counting birds on a power line isn't interacting with them. As it doesn't do anything to mobs I disagree it ought to be considered that way.

 

As far as -

- goes, that seems like a contrived way to justify a weird code choice. Any actions or powers which currently don't break stealth could be argued for causing detection if mobs are granted a sixth sense.

My only point on the matter is that as @Frozen Burn stated, it is not a bug and is working as intended. So if you want it changed? Then you need to make a suggestion/request to have it changed.

Edited January 15 by Rudra

[TesTiculon]

7 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I'm just posting what City of Data says. It says Up To The Challenge has the always notifies mobs flag. (Edit: What would keep Up To The Challenge from notifying mobs despite the flag is that it has no radius of effect because it is a flat buff to the character. As opposed to Melee Core Embodiment's 10 feet radius aura to track the number of enemies in range.)

So it's a fundamentally different power and the comparison is void, since it doesn't scale or count enemies.

 

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I'm not following your statement here. The one saying it doesn't make sense is you, so I fail to understand how or why you are countering it.

So Frozen's wording was a bit vague. I wasn't sure if "it does use the mobs to buff you" was meant to be an argument regarding coding or lore, so I gave a response for both. If it doesn't apply to your argument then don't get hung up on it.

 

14 minutes ago, Rudra said:

My only point on the matter is that as @Frozen Burn stated, it is not a bug and is working as intended. So if you want it changed? Then you need to make a suggestion/request to have it changed.

I'm not arguing personal preference. I think the power is misbehaving based on the fact that it alerts enemies for no reason, without stating anywhere in the power info that it would.

 

I do not believe it is intended to work this way, which is why I posted this as a bug. If a dev cofirms this is intended I will move the thread.

 

Again-

-The power does not damage, taunt, or debuff.

-Counting an enemy does not affect the enemy.

 

Given the above, why should this break stealth? This seems like someone just forgot to flip the "Alert Enemies" flag to off after they made the melee radial tree.

[Rudra]

19 minutes ago, TesTiculon said:

Again-

-The power does not damage, taunt, or debuff.

-Counting an enemy does not affect the enemy.

 

Given the above, why should this break stealth? This seems like someone just forgot to flip the "Alert Enemies" flag to off after they made the melee radial tree.

The simple answer is because the devs coded it to do so. Because the devs coded it to do so and it does in fact do so, it is working as intended. So you aren't reporting a bug. So if you would like it changed, then you need to submit a request to have it changed.

[Wavicle]

You stating that counting an enemy does not affect it is a claim without evidence. It doesn't apply a debuff, but it's still using them. Sort of like how you aren't affected by Facebook selling your data but also you kind of are.

Now it MAY be a bug, but it may not. The fact it doesn't damage, taunt, or debuff doesn't necessarily mean that it's a bug.

[TesTiculon]

28 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The simple answer is because the devs coded it to do so. Because the devs coded it to do so and it does in fact do so, it is working as intended.

I am saying "it works like this because someone made a mistake."

 

You are saying "It's intentional because it works like this."

 

I understand you think it is intentional. I Don't. I need an actual argument if I'm going to be persuaded.

 

24 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

You stating that counting an enemy does not affect it is a claim without evidence. It doesn't apply a debuff, but it's still using them. Sort of like how you aren't affected by Facebook selling your data but also you kind of are.

Is it an extraordinary claim? Frankly, considering how basic coding works, the counting of entities and the alerting of enemies wouldn't be the same line of code.

 

Also, I don't like this comparison. You're talking about the nebulous long-term repercussions of data harvesting versus someone looking at me because I was thinking too loud.

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, TesTiculon said:

I am saying "it works like this because someone made a mistake."

 

You are saying "It's intentional because it works like this."

 

I understand you think it is intentional. I Don't. I need an actual argument if I'm going to be persuaded.

 

Is it an extraordinary claim? Frankly, considering how basic coding works, the counting of entities and the alerting of enemies wouldn't be the same line of code.

 

Also, I don't like this comparison. You're talking about the nebulous long-term repercussions of data harvesting versus someone looking at me because I was thinking too loud.

The power is coded to work a set way and it does. It does not matter that you think it should not work that way, it is working the way it is coded. What other argument can possibly be made about it?

 

And as far as I know, the only way for the game to count enemies in range of an aura in this game is for said aura to interact with them.

[Wavicle]

6 minutes ago, TesTiculon said:

Is it an extraordinary claim? Frankly, considering how basic coding works, the counting of entities and the alerting of enemies wouldn't be the same line of code.

In the grand scheme of things, no it’s not all that extraordinary. I’m just saying there is not enough evidence to be certain that it is a bug. It could be, but it may not be.

[Wavicle]

I do agree that there's enough evidence to hypothesize that there may be a bug. That's all.

[TesTiculon]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

In the grand scheme of things, no it’s not all that extraordinary. I’m just saying there is not enough evidence to be certain that it is a bug. It could be, but it may not be.

If a dev weighs in, I'll be happy to eat my words and move this to suggestions.

[TesTiculon]

7 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The power is coded to work a set way and it does. It does not matter that you think it should not work that way, it is working the way it is coded. What other argument can possibly be made about it?

Do you know what "bug" means? A bug is—by definition—not the intent of the devs. That it is, in fact, in the code does not mean it isn't a bug.

Edited January 15 by TesTiculon

[Rudra]

22 minutes ago, TesTiculon said:

Do you know what "bug" means? A bug is—by definition—not the intent of the devs. That it is, in fact, in the code does not mean it isn't a bug.

https://www.techtarget.com/searchsoftwarequality/definition/bug

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bug

 

For the Merriam-Webster one, it is definition 2. Note that none of the definitions says it is not the intent of the developer, but that rather it is an unexpected defect, flaw, or other error in the code. Not the intent behind the code.

[Treacheres The Dastard]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

https://www.techtarget.com/searchsoftwarequality/definition/bug

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bug

 

For the Merriam-Webster one, it is definition 2. Note that none of the definitions says it is not the intent of the developer, but that rather it is an unexpected defect, flaw, or other error in the code. Not the intent behind the code.

Mate you can't actually be trying to argue this. Something can not be both unexpected and intended. Something defined as unexpected falls outside the category of intent. Please stop.

[Rudra]

12 hours ago, Treacheres The Dastard said:

Mate you can't actually be trying to argue this. Something can not be both unexpected and intended. Something defined as unexpected falls outside the category of intent. Please stop.

What are you talking about? A bug has absolutely nothing to do with the intent of the developer. A bug is some sort of error in the coding. I even linked definitions and classes of bugs. The code is set up to notify the mobs the character is present. The actual effect is the mobs are aware the character is present. So the code is working. No errors, flaws, defects, or imperfections in the code are present causing the game to behave in an incorrect manner. If you want the power to be changed, then submit a suggestion to change it, because it is not a bug and is correctly working.

 

Edit:

I'm going to make this simple and then I am done with this thread.

 

Are you the person that designed and created the power in question?

     Yes: Then you can safely argue what the developer's intent was because you are that person. And if you say you meant for it to not flag, then it might be a bug.

     No: Then you can not safely argue what the developer's intent was because you are not that person. Then all you can do is look at the code, treat it as written as

            intended, and see how it functions within those parameters.

Is the code functioning correctly and not causing incorrect behavior in the game as written without consideration for whether you agree with it or not*?

     Yes: The power is functioning as coded and does not have a bug.

     No: The power is not functioning as coded and likely has a bug.

Are you asking for the power that is working correctly within the program as it is currently written to work in a way it is not currently coded to work?*

     Yes: You are making a suggestion.*

     No: Continue enjoying the game.

 

(Edit: * - If you have to justify a bug report as "I believe something should work differently", "I think a person whom I have never met and know absolutely nothing about could not have intended something because I think it should not be that way", or any other variations of said comments, then you are not reporting a bug.)

 

And with that, consider me no longer part of this conversation. I'm not willing to keep arguing this because it will get me hit with another abusive behavior notice.

 

Edited January 15 by Rudra
Edited to add ", treat it as written as intended,", "within those parameters", "without consideration for whether you agree with it or not", and "that is working correctly within the program as it is currently written".

[TesTiculon]

 

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

consider me no longer part of this conversation.

ok

 

Then, for the benefit of all passerbys:

 

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

What are you talking about? A bug has absolutely nothing to do with the intent of the developer.

If by "nothing to do with", you mean "bugs are not intended", I agree. I'm not sure what else this could mean, but you're still arguing so I'm assuming there's some disconnect here.

 

As per your linked definitions (and your own admittance):

 

"A bug is some sort of error in the coding." (Source- you, colorized cir. 2024)

"...a bug is a coding error in a computer program."

"...an unexpected defect, fault, flaw, or imperfection."

 

All the bolded words there imply lack of intent. This is a yes or no question. It was either intended, or it wasn't.

 

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

The code is set up to notify the mobs the character is present. The actual effect is the mobs are aware the character is present. So the code is working. No errors, flaws, defects, or imperfections in the code are present causing the game to behave in an incorrect manner.

The whole point is that I believe the Alert Enemies flag was enabled/left enabled in error.

 

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

If you want the power to be changed, then submit a suggestion to change it, because it is not a bug and is correctly working.

As previously stated, I will submit this as a suggestion if it is confirmed to be intended.

 

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

Are you the person that designed and created the power in question?

     Yes: Then you can safely argue what the developer's intent was because you are that person. And if you say you meant for it to not flag, then it might be a bug.

     No: Then you can not safely argue what the developer's intent was because you are not that person. Then all you can do is look at the code and how it functions.

This applies to you, too.

 

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

Is the code functioning correctly and not causing incorrect behavior in the game?

     Yes: The power is functioning as coded and does not have a bug.

     No: The power is not functioning as coded and likely has a bug.

Change "coded" to "intended" and you have given the definition of a software bug. Thanks.

 

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

Are you asking for the power to work in a way it is not currently coded to work?

     Yes: You are making a suggestion.

     No: Continue enjoying the game.

Coding ≠ intent. Though I will continue enjoying the game, thanks again.

 

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

I'm not willing to keep arguing this because it will get me hit with another abusive behavior notice.

No comment.

Edited January 15 by TesTiculon
Couldn't decide on phrasing for point 1

[Treacheres The Dastard]

The fact that the alert has no justifiable rationale is good cause to suspect a bug. Frankly, posting this in the bug reports forum first is OP being charitable, instead of assuming it's just knowingly wrongly made by putting it in suggestions, since either way this aspect of it is nonsense.

 

 

9 hours ago, Rudra said:

get me hit with another abusive behavior notice.

Yeah maybe that's enough internet for now.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Treacheres The Dastard said:

The fact that the alert has no justifiable rationale is good cause to suspect a bug. Frankly, posting this in the bug reports forum first is OP being charitable, instead of assuming it's just knowingly wrongly made by putting it in suggestions, since either way this aspect of it is nonsense.

 

 

Yeah maybe that's enough internet for now.

but it does have a justifiable rationale, the power draws strength from the enemies, and they notice you doing it.

 

Totally justifiable. Assumptions are being made in this thread that it is not justifiable because it doesn’t have some sort of debuff attached, but it’s still a justifiable rationale.

[Treacheres The Dastard]

7 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

but it does have a justifiable rationale, the power draws strength from the enemies, and they notice you doing it.

 

Totally justifiable. Assumptions are being made in this thread that it is not justifiable because it doesn’t have some sort of debuff attached, but it’s still a justifiable rationale.

 

Draw from is not the right phrase. If I draw water from a glass, there's less water in that glass now. It's been changed, something has happened to it. The power's function is much more akin to getting psyched up at the challenge. The mobs lose as much, are affected as much by this power as they would be by flipping temp invulnerability on and off right next to them.

 

Trust me, I'm purple! We're all about "drawing from"!

 

Edit: To keep this very simple thread from becoming infinite I'll also leave it at this. I can't reply any further without essentially repeating myself so anyone who disagrees will still disagree. It's said, it's out there, we'll see if our spaghetti chefs feel like stirring this noodle.

Edited January 15 by Treacheres The Dastard