What I wish Arsenal Control looked like

[Bionic_Flea]

12 minutes ago, ShinMagmus said:

..but I don't want to play Arse/Storm, so I am trying to make Arse/Traps work.

I just saw your video of Arse/traps +4/x8 against Carnies.  It seemed to me like you were kicking butt at a good clip.  Yes, I'm sure that you could have done faster on something else.  But I think unless you homogenize everything you are going to have some sets that are better than others, at least for any given metric.  So you are going to end up with a most damaging and least damaging set.  And then, in my mind, the goal should be to keep the difference between the best and worse to a minimum.

 

For example, Ston and GalaxyBrain have run tests to compare all sets within an AT by running the same content with different primaries but the same secondary (or vice versa) and that gets you a fairly objective ranking list.  Do you know if something like that exists for controllers?  I'd be interested in seeing where Arse control fit into that hierarchy.

[Shin Magmus]

Such a list on Controllers would be tricky because they have to build and slot *one way* to be able to have enough Recharge for their Opener to be up and ready every spawn, or else they die... but they have to build and slot *another way* to purely maximize their possible damage and speed up fights: which can speed up a fight too much and result in it being harder or impossible to get the Opener's Recharge low enough to be up in time for the next fight.  Such a list on Dominators would also be fairly meaningless, since they can get 80-95% of their potential damage on many set-combos from just their Assault Set and their incredible assortment of Epic Pools.

 

In a solo scenario, if your Opener(s) are on CD: you either wait or you die.

 

In a team scenario, you can just click damaging buttons as soon as the meathead melees run in.

 

So when Controllers are on teams, they can use squishier builds with higher damage potential and lower recharge, which can skew the results of which set clears fastest heavily.  Alternatively, the best damaging Control sets deal disproportionately high damage via just a few powers such as HotFeet and Carrion Creepers: so it's easy to maximize the damage slotting of those powers without making compromises elsewhere in your build.  That's why those sets keep pace in endgame and why they make Controller as an AT feel much less shitty.

[Super Atom]

@ShinMagmus did you really not pick the title of this thread?  "What i wished arsenal control looked like"

 

[Cyclone Jack]

1 hour ago, ShinMagmus said:

No, Jack, the devs implemented it that way for a reason.  By making the Tier1 and the Tier2 both Sleep powers, it made taking Sleep unavoidable.  That was actually by design, so that the person on the team with the hard-on for Sleep could force anyone trying this set to try Sleep in a push to make the playerbase like the effect more.  The inherent problem of allowing a noob to start with a 45s CD power, and the second inherent problem of NOT allowing a Controller to start with a Hold or Immob for some sort of guaranteed Containment attack chain... were both ignored (initially).

Well yeah, the push for "Pick Sleep or Sleep" was pretty obvious.  But like I said, that never should have reached Open Beta, because anyone stepping foot into the Tutorial with Sleep Grenade paired with say, Traps, would have *immediately* seen red flags.

 

  

10 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

@ShinMagmus did you really not pick the title of this thread?  "What i wished arsenal control looked like"

He did not.  The Forum Moderator did when his feedback was yanked out of the Beta Feedback thread.

Edited February 4 by Cyclone Jack

[Shin Magmus]

9 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

@ShinMagmus did you really not pick the title of this thread?  "What i wished arsenal control looked like"

 

Of course not.  I typed the comment that is the OP: but only in the Feedback Thread.  A moderator moved it here and picked the name of this post for me.

[Super Atom]

Maybe it's just how the GM feels, why else would they name it that? I too wish it looked like that.

 

😂

[Shin Magmus]

I guess I could've posted this weeks ago, but I do have some experience with Control sets outside of angrily posting on forums.  This is my Control Page with my current lv50 CC Archetypes.

 

Dominators:

1 - "Shin Magmus" is an old-school Fire/Psy/Fire Farmer who now runs the regular Warrior and Council maps in PI.  She has a 2nd PvE build but it's so hilariously strong that it's almost not fun to play... almost.

2 - "Glacial Spear" is an Ice/Thorn/Ice Dom who can stack more autohit AoE movement slows than any other Dom: and who has the ST Immobilize in Chillblain which is often skipped.  This character specializes in preventing enemy movement, including AVs, and is good at preparing areas ahead of ambushes or known spawns to force them to "herd themselves" by coalescing on the leading edge of a powerful slow field.  This build completely outclasses Arsenal Control in its current state.

3 - "Mentaculon" is a Mind/Sonic/Fire Dom who is a Mentok Expy.  She is the most powerful at debuffing enemy Resists and is a support character.  I've already respecced back into Telekinesis ahead of the patch and will be teaming exclusively on the character as she's not built for soloing even though Mind Control is known for it.

 

Controllers:

1 - "Lethal Lava Larissa" is a Fire/FF/Fire Controller who just jumps into melee after setting up Containment, and goes Force Bomb -> Fireball while racking up HotFeet damage.  This is a strong contender for my favorite character.

2 - "It's Not Real" is an Illusion/Traps/Mace Controller whose build is completely focused on fighting AVs/GMs and that's it.  This is a one-trick-pony.

3 - "TIME-Z0NE" is unsurprisingly a Grav/Time/Mu with Fold Space who uses Combat Teleport and recalls Singularity into the middle of the spawn with herself.  This specific character trope is done to death and I'm not the first person to spam Wormhole and Fold Space onto Singy.  Fun gimmick but low individual damage.

4 - "RICHTER RAMPAGE" is an Earth/Nature/Stone optimized for FUN with tons of redundant attacks out of Earth Mastery and several Nature powers skipped.  The crux of the character is being tanky via the buffs I do take, then jumping in to stack Entangling Aura with my other Holds while I click ROCK BUTTONS AND GO BRRRR.  This character has a 2nd build that is more traditional and has heavy focus on Nature as well as full Leadership to be a dedicated support Controller for Hard Mode ITFs.

 

*Fixed spelling errors*

 

 

Edited February 4 by ShinMagmus
Fixed Spelling Errors

[Bionic_Flea]

I've got 17 level 50 controllers, but only 8 level 50 doms.  That's not counting stuff I made on test servers.  I guess I need to try Doms more, but I really do like buff/debuff sets.

[Shin Magmus]

I'd say try Doms more but I understand why someone would prefer Controllers.

 

The main reason to play Doms, aside from better attacks overall, is that none of their damage is tied to Containment.  So take Mind Control for example: Terrify is a fearsome AoE attack but also a good Opener to start fights... however a Controller would never want to Open with an attack.  They'd be losing out on 50% of its potential damage, so a Controller would want to use a different Opener, then use an AoE Immob to ensure Containment, then use Terrify 3rd: this is very very silly.  It basically results in the optimal damage flowchart for Mind Controllers to be Mass Hypnosis -> immediately waste that power and break all the sleep with Terrify -> now the fight starts but you have no more ways to set up Containment so you're gimped for the rest of the fight.

 

Compare that to playing the same set on a Dominator where you just click Terrify and get all the damage you were ever going to get; No stupid setup or dumb combos required... just damage.  Some sets are infinitely more pleasant to play on Dominators because of this.  It highlights an issue with Controller damage scales + inherent as a whole, but that's unlikely to be fixed or changed at all in the near future.  Since most Control sets were intelligently designed around their inherent: the issue is not apparent on nearly all Controller primaries.  In fact, it only really matters on Mind Control, and now Arse Control: just 2 sets.  Illusion can't really set up Containment but the pets also can't proc Containment damage: therefore the weakness is less apparent and the DPS loss is less significant.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, ShinMagmus said:

I'd say try Doms more but I understand why someone would prefer Controllers.

 

The main reason to play Doms, aside from better attacks overall, is that none of their damage is tied to Containment.  So take Mind Control for example: Terrify is a fearsome AoE attack but also a good Opener to start fights... however a Controller would never want to Open with an attack.  They'd be losing out on 50% of its potential damage, so a Controller would want to use a different Opener, then use an AoE Immob to ensure Containment, then use Terrify 3rd: this is very very silly.  It basically results in the optimal damage flowchart for Mind Controllers to be Mass Hypnosis -> immediately waste that power and break all the sleep with Terrify -> now the fight starts but you have no more ways to set up Containment so you're gimped for the rest of the fight.

 

Compare that to playing the same set on a Dominator where you just click Terrify and get all the damage you were ever going to get; No stupid setup or dumb combos required... just damage.  Some sets are infinitely more pleasant to play on Dominators because of this.  It highlights an issue with Controller damage scales + inherent as a whole, but that's unlikely to be fixed or changed at all in the near future.  Since most Control sets were intelligently designed around their inherent: the issue is not apparent on nearly all Controller primaries.  In fact, it only really matters on Mind Control, and now Arse Control: just 2 sets.  Illusion can't really set up Containment but the pets also can't proc Containment damage: therefore the weakness is less apparent and the DPS loss is less significant.

You are overthinking things with Containment. Terrify’s base damage is not so high that you need to guarantee containment on it, so just go ahead and open with it if you want, though opening with Total Domination or Mass Confusion would be safer. It should be proc bombed on a Controller build, so you will be doing the vast majority of its damage with or without containment.

[Shin Magmus]

If anyone is following this thread, all meaningful discussion is still happening in the Focused Feedback: Arsenal Control thread, and a new build just dropped that buffed several powers but unfortunately broke Sleep Grenade currently.  Most, but not all, commenters here are active over there as well.  I'd recommend reading the Build 4 patch notes for a couple reasons.

 

The main point is that they seem to have agreed to dispense a lot of buffs to Arsenal Control as a whole, and many of the buffs are similar to what I outlined at the start of this thread.  There are buffs/changes to Smoke Canister, Tranq Dart, and Tear Gas: which are all analogous or identical to what I suggested.  This is important not because it validates me personally, but because the set has moved toward having an identity and being objectively strong.  Arsenal Control is now truly "The  Patch Control Set" as it has tons of ground-targeted powers which can be used to finesse the locations of a fight and where enemies end up "stopping".  Additionally, it has more direct comparisons with Earth Control.  Not only do both sets have an especially Tanky pet, but they both have a version of "Earthquake, a version of "Volcanic Gasses", and have a ground-target power to slow enemy movement tied to a 45s CD.  This means that you can do a lot of the same stuff in Arsenal Control... same but different (and maybe even better since the Confuse power will be a marked advantage over Earth): Lots of good stuff.

 

The shenanigans with the "Wet" flag are still ongoing, but that's not as much of a deal-breaker anymore when the rest of the set is finally good.  If this powerset is given a truly consistent AoE Immobilize: then it will be something that I genuinely want to play.  One step at a time, or like... don't look a gift-horse in the mouth.

 

I just wanted to say thanks for all the positive feedback here: especially since I didn't make this thread myself and expected this to quickly devolve into a flame war.  It was actually pretty civil and productive (once you pretend Arcane doesn't exist).  There's not much else to say here though, this thread is almost entirely redundant when the pitches in the first page are just stating how the set is now.  It might be worth closing.