What I wish Arsenal Control looked like

[Shin Magmus]

Fixed Arsenal Control
By: Shin_Rekkoha (Shin_Magmus)

 

*The powerset is now given an identity and a niche: not just having several ground-targetted patch powers, but being the best (and only) Control set at stacking -dmg debuffs.*
*Power naming consistency pass conducted: all power names which contain "Canister" are ground-targetted and can be used preemtively.*
*Power order adjusted.*

T1 - Tranquilizer Round
Ranged, Dmg(Toxic), Foe Sleep, -dmg/-rech
*Add Debuff Effects
Above average DPA attack for a Controller, fills the attack chain position usually occupied by an ST Immobilize, stacks additional -dmg effects for when Sleep fails.

 

T2 - Cryo Freeze Ray
Ranged, Dmg(Cold), Foe Hold, -speed/-rech
*Add Debuff effects / Power given correct parity with Block of Ice*
Standard Single Target Hold, no arbitrary weaknesses.

 

T3 - Liquid Nitrogen
Ranged, Targeted Enemy AoE, Foe Immobilize/-Fly/-KB%/-KU%, strong -speed/-rech,
*Changed targeting method, add Slow Debuff effects, removed damage, CD reduced to 8s, changed core power, Wet status completely removed from the game*
Derivative version of Chillblain, deals no damage and can't slot damage IO sets but applies a more powerful movement slow in exchange, effect even if the Immobilize fails.  Since this power deals no damage, it also does not break Sleep, allowing it to be used to set up Containment without waking up foes.

 

T4 - Sophorific Canister
Ranged, Ground Targeted Location, Foe Pulsing Sleep, -dmg/-rech
*Add Debuff effects, changed targeting method, damage removed*
A more usable Sleep Grenade that can be placed preemptively without an enemy target, stacks additional -dmg effects for when Sleep fails.

 

T5 - Cloaking Device
Self, Toggle Stealth, +Def(All)
*No changes*
Power must have retain parity with Superior Invisibility to be justified, people who don't want it can skip it or just mule a LotG 7.5%.

 

T6 - Flash Bang Grenade
Ranged, Targeted Enemy AoE, Minor Dmg(Smashing), Foe Stun/-ToHit
*Damage added*
A standard 90s CD AoE Stun is a default Opener for most Control sets and a fine power, given minor Smashing damage because getting Flash-Banged hurts.

 

T7 - Smoke Canister
Ranged, Ground Targeted Location, Foe Pulsing -Perception/-ToHit, Foe Confuse on dmg
*Debuff effects increased, Added correct 100% consistent Domination values*
The idea of this power is fine as long as we also have an AoE Immobilize that prevents KB.  2 different Openers both on 90s CDs is unique for a Control set, as long as they're both good powers individually.

 

T8 - Tear Gas Canister
Ranged, Ground Targeted Location, Moderate DoT(Toxic), Foe Pulsing Hold, -dmg
*Changed targeting method, changed core power, now a clone of Volcanic Gasses with adjusted numbers, retain 240s CD*
Tear Gas Canister has been given a new identity to be a strong AoE attack that deals significant Toxic Damage over time and stacks additional -dmg, with a small chance to periodically Hold them.  Directly compared against Volcanic Gasses: this power will have more DPS and a debuff, but significantly lower Hold frequency/duration.

 

T9 - Tri-Cannon
*No changes*
The pet works fine and fits the theme well enough.
 

 

I would be interested to hear the opinions of others in this thread on this set instead of the Arsenal Control that we're getting.

[BitCook]

Yes.  That is a set that I would play.  Very cool.  I hope the devs take a look at that.

Control sets should have something unique to them, or there is little reason to play them over any other set.  I like the Sleep/-DMG combination as it gives a reason to use sleep powers while on a team.  You can control adds, or debuff what the team is fighting.  Either way, the powers have use.

[mistagoat]

18 minutes ago, ShinMagmus said:

Fixed Arsenal Control
By: Shin_Rekkoha (Shin_Magmus)

 

*The powerset is now given an identity and a niche: not just having several ground-targetted patch powers, but being the best (and only) Control set at stacking -dmg debuffs.*
*Power naming consistency pass conducted: all power names which contain "Canister" are ground-targetted and can be used preemtively.*
*Power order adjusted.*

T1 - Tranquilizer Round
Ranged, Dmg(Toxic), Foe Sleep, -dmg/-rech
*Add Debuff Effects
Above average DPA attack for a Controller, fills the attack chain position usually occupied by an ST Immobilize, stacks additional -dmg effects for when Sleep fails.

 

T2 - Cryo Freeze Ray
Ranged, Dmg(Cold), Foe Hold, -speed/-rech
*Add Debuff effects / Power given correct parity with Block of Ice*
Standard Single Target Hold, no arbitrary weaknesses.

 

T3 - Liquid Nitrogen
Ranged, Targeted Enemy AoE, Foe Immobilize/-Fly/-KB%/-KU%, strong -speed/-rech,
*Changed targeting method, add Slow Debuff effects, removed damage, CD reduced to 8s, changed core power, Wet status completely removed from the game*
Derivative version of Chillblain, deals no damage and can't slot damage IO sets but applies a more powerful movement slow in exchange, effect even if the Immobilize fails.  Since this power deals no damage, it also does not break Sleep, allowing it to be used to set up Containment without waking up foes.

 

T4 - Sophorific Canister
Ranged, Ground Targeted Location, Foe Pulsing Sleep, -dmg/-rech
*Add Debuff effects, changed targeting method, damage removed*
A more usable Sleep Grenade that can be placed preemptively without an enemy target, stacks additional -dmg effects for when Sleep fails.

 

T5 - Cloaking Device
Self, Toggle Stealth, +Def(All)
*No changes*
Power must have retain parity with Superior Invisibility to be justified, people who don't want it can skip it or just mule a LotG 7.5%.

 

T6 - Flash Bang Grenade
Ranged, Targeted Enemy AoE, Minor Dmg(Smashing), Foe Stun/-ToHit
*Damage added*
A standard 90s CD AoE Stun is a default Opener for most Control sets and a fine power, given minor Smashing damage because getting Flash-Banged hurts.

 

T7 - Smoke Canister
Ranged, Ground Targeted Location, Foe Pulsing -Perception/-ToHit, Foe Confuse on dmg
*Debuff effects increased, Added correct 100% consistent Domination values*
The idea of this power is fine as long as we also have an AoE Immobilize that prevents KB.  2 different Openers both on 90s CDs is unique for a Control set, as long as they're both good powers individually.

 

T8 - Tear Gas Canister
Ranged, Ground Targeted Location, Moderate DoT(Toxic), Foe Pulsing Hold, -dmg
*Changed targeting method, changed core power, now a clone of Volcanic Gasses with adjusted numbers, retain 240s CD*
Tear Gas Canister has been given a new identity to be a strong AoE attack that deals significant Toxic Damage over time and stacks additional -dmg, with a small chance to periodically Hold them.  Directly compared against Volcanic Gasses: this power will have more DPS and a debuff, but significantly lower Hold frequency/duration.

 

T9 - Tri-Cannon
*No changes*
The pet works fine and fits the theme well enough.
 

 

I would be interested to hear the opinions of others in this thread on this set instead of the Arsenal Control that we're getting.

That looks good! I don't love no damage on the immob but it's a fair tradeoff for the utility. I'd play that set, ship it!

[BitCook]

But the ability to not break sleep which is one of the core mechanics of the set would be huge, and unique.  It's not like AOE immobs are really killing people most of the time.

[Cheli]

23 minutes ago, ShinMagmus said:

Fixed Arsenal Control
By: Shin_Rekkoha (Shin_Magmus)

 

*The powerset is now given an identity and a niche: not just having several ground-targetted patch powers, but being the best (and only) Control set at stacking -dmg debuffs.*
*Power naming consistency pass conducted: all power names which contain "Canister" are ground-targetted and can be used preemtively.*
*Power order adjusted.*

T1 - Tranquilizer Round
Ranged, Dmg(Toxic), Foe Sleep, -dmg/-rech
*Add Debuff Effects
Above average DPA attack for a Controller, fills the attack chain position usually occupied by an ST Immobilize, stacks additional -dmg effects for when Sleep fails.

 

T2 - Cryo Freeze Ray
Ranged, Dmg(Cold), Foe Hold, -speed/-rech
*Add Debuff effects / Power given correct parity with Block of Ice*
Standard Single Target Hold, no arbitrary weaknesses.

 

T3 - Liquid Nitrogen
Ranged, Targeted Enemy AoE, Foe Immobilize/-Fly/-KB%/-KU%, strong -speed/-rech,
*Changed targeting method, add Slow Debuff effects, removed damage, CD reduced to 8s, changed core power, Wet status completely removed from the game*
Derivative version of Chillblain, deals no damage and can't slot damage IO sets but applies a more powerful movement slow in exchange, effect even if the Immobilize fails.  Since this power deals no damage, it also does not break Sleep, allowing it to be used to set up Containment without waking up foes.

 

T4 - Sophorific Canister
Ranged, Ground Targeted Location, Foe Pulsing Sleep, -dmg/-rech
*Add Debuff effects, changed targeting method, damage removed*
A more usable Sleep Grenade that can be placed preemptively without an enemy target, stacks additional -dmg effects for when Sleep fails.

 

T5 - Cloaking Device
Self, Toggle Stealth, +Def(All)
*No changes*
Power must have retain parity with Superior Invisibility to be justified, people who don't want it can skip it or just mule a LotG 7.5%.

 

T6 - Flash Bang Grenade
Ranged, Targeted Enemy AoE, Minor Dmg(Smashing), Foe Stun/-ToHit
*Damage added*
A standard 90s CD AoE Stun is a default Opener for most Control sets and a fine power, given minor Smashing damage because getting Flash-Banged hurts.

 

T7 - Smoke Canister
Ranged, Ground Targeted Location, Foe Pulsing -Perception/-ToHit, Foe Confuse on dmg
*Debuff effects increased, Added correct 100% consistent Domination values*
The idea of this power is fine as long as we also have an AoE Immobilize that prevents KB.  2 different Openers both on 90s CDs is unique for a Control set, as long as they're both good powers individually.

 

T8 - Tear Gas Canister
Ranged, Ground Targeted Location, Moderate DoT(Toxic), Foe Pulsing Hold, -dmg
*Changed targeting method, changed core power, now a clone of Volcanic Gasses with adjusted numbers, retain 240s CD*
Tear Gas Canister has been given a new identity to be a strong AoE attack that deals significant Toxic Damage over time and stacks additional -dmg, with a small chance to periodically Hold them.  Directly compared against Volcanic Gasses: this power will have more DPS and a debuff, but significantly lower Hold frequency/duration.

 

T9 - Tri-Cannon
*No changes*
The pet works fine and fits the theme well enough.
 

 

I would be interested to hear the opinions of others in this thread on this set instead of the Arsenal Control that we're getting.

I had a similar idea to make sleep powers more attractive, maybe tying the sleep status itself in with a strong but brief -dmg in a similar way to fear powers often imposing -tohit even if the fear isn't effective. We all know it's inevitable anytime anyone brings up that the vast majority of sleep powers are skipped by the overwhelming majority of players that 'well there's [very minor use-case]!' will be used as justification for sleep continuing to function the way it does so adding some kind of partner-effect to it would really help. 

 

I like your idea for Tear Gas Cannister. And in general I don't mind the devs' idea for a set that relies on a lot of ground patches, and I'm not even fully opposed to a set that leans in to sleep... but yeah, it has to have some other component to go with it. I think the -dmg is a good one.

[Shin Magmus]

Yeah but a system-level change like that would probably only be accomplished via manually editing every Sleep power 1 at a time, because of how this game is coded.

[Cyclone Jack]

58 minutes ago, ShinMagmus said:

I would be interested to hear the opinions of others in this thread on this set instead of the Arsenal Control that we're getting.

* Tranq is good.  There is nothing wrong with a L1 Sleep and this adds additional debuffs, allowing it to be useful vs Boss and higher mobs.

* Cryo Freeze Ray is your standard single target hold; pretty straightforward.

* Liquid Nitrogen.  An 8 second cooldown AoE skill that sets up Containment and is also good with Domination.  This fixes one of the main reasons the current set fails, IMO, and that's having a solid, spammable 3rd ability that works with both Containment and Domination.  This also gives the set -KB, which pairs well with the higher tier powers.  Interesting choice on no damage, and I think that makes this Immob quite unique and interesting.  So the Slow debuff would be auto hit, while the Immob would require the ToHit check?  I like it.

* Sophoric is interesting.  Making it location allows it to work exceptionally well as an area denial power, such as when fighting in a tight area with multiple groups nearby where a stray shot could cause aggro.  It opens up additional tactical options, which is always good, and something I think needs to be looked into more with other sets.

* Cloaking Device.  LotG mule and move on, not much more to say about self-only Stealth powers.  Sometimes you just want a one-slot wonder. 🙂

* Flash Bang is pretty straightforward.  Giving it damage is good since Liquid Nitrogen doesn't have any, and you don't want too many non-damage powers, even if the set has a high focus on Sleeps.

* Smoke Canister is still a solid power and, like you said, works really well when you can keep enemies within the AoEs.

* Tear Gas change is great because it mimics the other smoke-like powers by being a pulsing control.  This helps give the set a mechanical theme as well as a conceptual one and, IMO, really ties things together.

* Tri-Cannon pet is a pet.  It does pet things. 🙂

 

Overall pretty solid iteration.  Having 3 pseudo-pet controls that are all mechanically the same really ties things together and gives the set a very unique identity that stands out.

 

Now, I do want to say that while I still don't think the set needs an AoE Immobilize, the -KB that this supplies is really a huge boon to the set.  Again, not really *needed*, but very helpful.  Technically, the current Liquid Nitrogen skill would work if it weren't for the fact that has like a 90s recharge, and it doesn't help with KB.  The key here is that this version has an 8 second cooldown, and is usable every fight, and even multiple times a fight if needed, and works with both Containment and Domination.  Basically, the 1st 3 abilities, of any set, need to be usable multiple fights a fight.  These are the foundation of the set, and the backbone of the leveling experience.

Edited February 2 by Cyclone Jack

[Lockely]

1 hour ago, ShinMagmus said:

Fixed Arsenal Control
By: Shin_Rekkoha (Shin_Magmus)

 

*The powerset is now given an identity and a niche: not just having several ground-targetted patch powers, but being the best (and only) Control set at stacking -dmg debuffs.*
*Power naming consistency pass conducted: all power names which contain "Canister" are ground-targetted and can be used preemtively.*
*Power order adjusted.*

T1 - Tranquilizer Round
Ranged, Dmg(Toxic), Foe Sleep, -dmg/-rech
*Add Debuff Effects
Above average DPA attack for a Controller, fills the attack chain position usually occupied by an ST Immobilize, stacks additional -dmg effects for when Sleep fails.

 

T2 - Cryo Freeze Ray
Ranged, Dmg(Cold), Foe Hold, -speed/-rech
*Add Debuff effects / Power given correct parity with Block of Ice*
Standard Single Target Hold, no arbitrary weaknesses.

 

T3 - Liquid Nitrogen
Ranged, Targeted Enemy AoE, Foe Immobilize/-Fly/-KB%/-KU%, strong -speed/-rech,
*Changed targeting method, add Slow Debuff effects, removed damage, CD reduced to 8s, changed core power, Wet status completely removed from the game*
Derivative version of Chillblain, deals no damage and can't slot damage IO sets but applies a more powerful movement slow in exchange, effect even if the Immobilize fails.  Since this power deals no damage, it also does not break Sleep, allowing it to be used to set up Containment without waking up foes.

 

T4 - Sophorific Canister
Ranged, Ground Targeted Location, Foe Pulsing Sleep, -dmg/-rech
*Add Debuff effects, changed targeting method, damage removed*
A more usable Sleep Grenade that can be placed preemptively without an enemy target, stacks additional -dmg effects for when Sleep fails.

 

T5 - Cloaking Device
Self, Toggle Stealth, +Def(All)
*No changes*
Power must have retain parity with Superior Invisibility to be justified, people who don't want it can skip it or just mule a LotG 7.5%.

 

T6 - Flash Bang Grenade
Ranged, Targeted Enemy AoE, Minor Dmg(Smashing), Foe Stun/-ToHit
*Damage added*
A standard 90s CD AoE Stun is a default Opener for most Control sets and a fine power, given minor Smashing damage because getting Flash-Banged hurts.

 

T7 - Smoke Canister
Ranged, Ground Targeted Location, Foe Pulsing -Perception/-ToHit, Foe Confuse on dmg
*Debuff effects increased, Added correct 100% consistent Domination values*
The idea of this power is fine as long as we also have an AoE Immobilize that prevents KB.  2 different Openers both on 90s CDs is unique for a Control set, as long as they're both good powers individually.

 

T8 - Tear Gas Canister
Ranged, Ground Targeted Location, Moderate DoT(Toxic), Foe Pulsing Hold, -dmg
*Changed targeting method, changed core power, now a clone of Volcanic Gasses with adjusted numbers, retain 240s CD*
Tear Gas Canister has been given a new identity to be a strong AoE attack that deals significant Toxic Damage over time and stacks additional -dmg, with a small chance to periodically Hold them.  Directly compared against Volcanic Gasses: this power will have more DPS and a debuff, but significantly lower Hold frequency/duration.

 

T9 - Tri-Cannon
*No changes*
The pet works fine and fits the theme well enough.
 

 

I would be interested to hear the opinions of others in this thread on this set instead of the Arsenal Control that we're getting.

 

[Laenan]

I think those changes proposed by Shin look great, and give the set a unified theme and a niche that I think the current set on the server is lacking.

[BitCook]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

It strikes me as trolling to continue advocating for the power selection to change after multiple developers have told us the power selection is fixed. I’m sure they would appreciate if feedback was limited to the current power selection in light of this.

 

Perhaps the time to solicit feedback would have been in the design phase to not run into this, or issues like the beanbag one that came up before.  I get that significant effort and time have gone into coding powers... and changing them now would be a lot of work and difficult.  However, I would assume you want people to really use/enjoy the things released.  There are some really smart people in the community and I don't see the harm in perhaps soliciting feedback BEFORE coding and locking in powers.

While you are never going to please everyone, getting community input in the design portion would likely mean that you have less issues like this; where the feedback is that this seems to be a somewhat sub-par set as it stands in part because sleep is not a team friendly or very useful mechanic for anything other than solo leveling.

Just something to consider for the next time sets are being designed and thought about.

[Gerswin]

Anyone that wanted to be in closed beta could have done so.  The more involved you are earlier the more ability to give feedback you have.  

[BitCook]

Even in closed Beta, the code has already mostly been laid out.  If we're playing it, in any fashion, then there's always going to be resistance to large changes.  Which, I believe has been some folks contention in these forums.  Feedback was given, but for whatever reasons, mostly glossed over.

Again, in a community like this, where it's volunteers and no corp is driving dates or schedules, It would probably save a lot of grief to hash this stuff out with people before code has been written.  Put out a design document and solicit feedback before having people write code.  As a developer, I know that it's REALLY easy to get blinders for the cool thing you wrote and not consider wider implications.

 

[Lockely]

18 minutes ago, Gerswin said:

Anyone that wanted to be in closed beta could have done so.  The more involved you are earlier the more ability to give feedback you have.  

 

A lot of us came back with the NCSoft announcement because we now know we're safe from the game and our characters unilaterally poofing out of existence with a C&D. This is the first post-license Issue, and the first time many of us have even had a chance to levy feedback.

Edited February 2 by Lockely

[Sovera]

The testing done before things arrive to the open test server already has things set mostly in stone. Details are changed, maybe tiers, but it's mostly numeric and bug squash.

 

The forums most often just produce more of the same feedback as what was reported by the testers but that had been already decided as not going to be changed.

 

For example Storm Blast being a middle ground DoT based set stayed the same, but since Storm Cell had so much push back (I sometimes swear the devs don't play the game) it ended getting that mechanic where it follows the user. But a bit like Arsenal here the change was grudging and requests to make Storm Cell a toggle or increase movement speed, or bottom the teleport like Faraday Cage has, have been refused.

 

 

So there is a design time, then a pre-test time when that set reaches the beta testers, and then it arrives to Brainstorm and the forumites can log in and test. So don't think being in the beta testing gives a particular weight to things. Arguments are made against obvious (so obvious) things that will not be good or welcomed, but, the devs have a vision(tm) of things.

 

I don't want to paint the devs as malicious devils or incompetent, or uncaring. But they have a very firm spreadsheet idea and things cannot budge further than.

 

And, you know, I dig that. We've seen what other servers have done with willy nilly changes and just throwing numbers up without much care for balance. But this is about design philosophy and it has been talked a fair bit already on how the new things are designed to such a blandness that until other existing sets are balanced DOWN the new sets just don't catch up to them.

[warlyx]

truth be said the sets added all have failed to deliver for 1 reason or another , its true that the reworks has been amazing well done , so i cant understand whats going on , if the devs are so good reworking why the cant create good sets?

 

afraid of making OP sets i guess.

 

i would love to see another round of most played sets and what not , im sure new powersets are low , and some forgottent sets (archery) are at the bottom...

 

 

[Maxzero]

In many ways the issue isn't Arsenal Control but the Containment passive itself. If you are literally going to lock of 50% of an ATs damage behind the presence of certain debuffs that anything that cannot provide that debuff is going to struggle. The exception that proves the rule is Illusion Control: the set literally has multiple, taunting and invincible high damage pets just to be competitive with Containment.

 

You want to break the Immobilize meta or at least weaken it? Fix the cause of it Containment instead of reworking sets over and over trying to make them fit in a broken meta.

[Shin Magmus]

... and since this set will never get a reliable way to set up Containment, it will also never be good unless its individual powers are as broken as Illusion Control.  This means that Arsenal Control will fundamentally suck and be literally always outclassed on Controllers because of the lack of Containment and lack of truly good powers.

 

As for the reason it lacks both of those things?  One stubborn person in a position of power. 

[Shin Magmus]

What if instead of adjusting Arse Control to better facilitate Containment -or- buffing Controller base damage and nerfing the crit multiplier from Containment to fix these system-level changes that you pointed out... we do neither?

 

Let's just push a mediocre set to the non-Blasters and sneak in another Blaster buff.

[Cyclone Jack]

3 hours ago, warlyx said:

truth be said the sets added all have failed to deliver for 1 reason or another , its true that the reworks has been amazing well done , so i cant understand whats going on , if the devs are so good reworking why the cant create good sets?

 

afraid of making OP sets i guess.

 

i would love to see another round of most played sets and what not , im sure new powersets are low , and some forgottent sets (archery) are at the bottom...

The hard part of doing this is that a lot of players will put up with mediocre powersets so long as they fit a thematic character, and, honestly, I'd say a lot of players don't know, and don't care, that their powers are lacking because its almost impossible to tell when you're on a team that is always steamrolling content.

 

I mean, heck, I've got a Sonic/Inv Sentinel, T3h N0i5e T4nK, because of Aether Particles.  Even at its best, it hardly reaches mediocrity, but its still a fun concept character.  I've got a buddy that genuinely enjoys his Seismic/Earth Blaster.  So its going to be difficult to determine what's in a good place based solely on what's being played.

 

And to give them some credit, Electrical Affinity is pretty solid, especially on a Mastermind.

[JasperStone]

Shouldn't this be in the Focused Feedback?

[Cyclone Jack]

1 hour ago, JasperStone said:

Shouldn't this be in the Focused Feedback?

It was.

[arcane]

2 hours ago, JasperStone said:

Shouldn't this be in the Focused Feedback?

It was moved out of Focused Feedback for being off-topic since the devs repeatedly stated they wouldn’t be changing the set’s power selection further.

Edited February 3 by arcane

[arcane]

5 hours ago, Maxzero said:

No other AT is so critically reliant on their passive for damage as Controllers are and it has and will continue to hamper design until its solved. Control sets are cookie cutter because Containment makes them so.

I would urge you to try Controllers without focusing so heavily on Containment. The inherent is not as critical as you make it sound.

[arcane]

5 hours ago, ShinMagmus said:

What if instead of adjusting Arse Control to better facilitate Containment -or- buffing Controller base damage and nerfing the crit multiplier from Containment to fix these system-level changes that you pointed out... we do neither?

 

Let's just push a mediocre set to the non-Blasters and sneak in another Blaster buff.

If you want to talk about your immobilize issue, that discussion was moved to Suggestions and Feedback.

[Maxzero]

40 minutes ago, arcane said:

I would urge you to try Controllers without focusing so heavily on Containment. The inherent is not as critical as you make it sound.

 

In your way you are right because Controller gain so much power from another broken system: procs.

 

Outside of procs Containment is literally consistent double damage for Controller attacks.

 

Can you make a viable Controller without using Containment? Sure if you rely the crutch of PA (which itself is problematic balance wise) otherwise you are going to a rather boring time.

Edited February 3 by Maxzero