Help me decide Bots/?

[Judge Jetson]

Thanks again, great discussion. I’ve decided on bots/marine (sea creature reusing rusted ship parts to build an army). Anyone have a build available to work from? If not I’ll take from the above shared bots/kin and merc/marine. 
 

Thank you

[Auroxis]

1 hour ago, Judge Jetson said:

Thanks again, great discussion. I’ve decided on bots/marine (sea creature reusing rusted ship parts to build an army). Anyone have a build available to work from? If not I’ll take from the above shared bots/kin and merc/marine. 
 

Thank you

Here's a build for you to work with. Has positional defenses close to the softcap (protector bots give +19.5%), S/L near hardcap, and some nice FFB and -res procced attacks to keep your PotD perma and DPS high.

Mastermind (Robotics - Marine).mbd

Edited January 1 by Auroxis

[Maelwys]

3 hours ago, Judge Jetson said:

Thanks again, great discussion. I’ve decided on bots/marine (sea creature reusing rusted ship parts to build an army). Anyone have a build available to work from? If not I’ll take from the above shared bots/kin and merc/marine. 
 

Thank you

The two most important things will be Softcapping the Henchmen; and Procbombing Whitecap.
Also put the Gaussian Proc into Shifting Tides if you intend for the Master to be dealing much "raw" damage themselves (meh)
 

18.06% (Protector Bot Bubbles with 1x Attuned LoTG 7.5% Rech and 1x Lv53 Def/End HO)
 3.65% (Maneuvers with 1x Attuned LoTG 7.5% Rech and 1x Lv53 Def/End HO)
 8.69% (Barrier Reef with 1x Attuned LoTG 7.5% Rech and 2x Lv53 Def/Rech HOs)
10.00% (2x Pet Set +Def Aura IOs)
---------
=40.40%

Barrier Cycles add another 5% minimum to get you to softcap.

Support Core Hybrid can also boost that by another 12% on demand to counter def debuffs if you're not using Assault Radial.
You won't need the Command of the Mastermind Aura +AoE Def Aura IO; and you can swap those HOs for regular set IOs if inf is an issue...
 

Edited January 1 by Maelwys

[tidge]

It is a new calendar year, so I'll repeat that I don't think a Mastermind should be "proc-bombing" any of its powers. It is far better IMO to leverage slots in MM attacks to get set bonuses. The most worthwhile "procs" for MM attacks are IMO, those that do %-Resistance (Annihilation also has useful set bonuses for MMs) and any that can give %Absorb (such as Superior Entomb) because of Bodyguard mode mechanics. A soft control like knockdown can also be useful, because flopping enemies don't fight back.

[Onlyasandwich]

11 minutes ago, tidge said:

It is a new calendar year, so I'll repeat that I don't think a Mastermind should be "proc-bombing" any of its powers

Why not? A good attack is a good attack. If you can reach respectable damage numbers on these attacks with procs while still reaching other goals you have with the build, what is the loss?

 

There is always a trade-off of course, but the same could be said about specific set choices or even power choice to begin with. Both are build decisions, and accomplish different things.

 

I agree that it can go too far. I have tried to push procs on some builds and ended up with too little end support. Many builds sacrifice defense for them, but this is not so much the case with bots/Marine. Your basic powers cover so much here that you don't need set bonuses for an effective defense strategy. Instead, invest them in offense. 

 

 

[Maelwys]

The best milage for damage procs can often be had in summons (do those count as "attacks"?) providing you do your homework and work out how many of each pet's abilities will give each Proc an opportunity to trigger.

 

Regarding other powers, sure it's a balancing act. But one that often still heavily favours using procs in long recharge powers that have low inherent damage but multiple enhanceable aspects. Whitecap in particular is incredibly receptive to procs, including a -res one.

 

There's certainly an argument to be made that the MM themselves ought to not attack much beyond inflicting debuffs (like applying -Regen from the Bot/ rifle blasts) because of a low damage scalar and high endurance cost. However if they're already sufficiently powerful and would otherwise be sitting around twiddling their thumbs then where's the harm? Even long before shutdown my Bot/Traps was running around actively blasting things and toebombing with Trip Mine.

[Auroxis]

Not only does the MM have time to fire off those procced AoE's, but you get to fire the opening volley to thin the herd which makes your pet attacks more focused and efficient. That's why I enjoy playing with procced attacks on MM.

 

Also, you don't necessarily have to proc those fast recharging ones in the primary powerset. In the secondary powerset and power pools there are often excellent proc opportunities (like Whitecap, Explosive Blast, Thunder Strike and more) which not only contribute damage but also inflict -res and grant +rech via procs. Yes you need to find a balance with endurance issues and defensive concerns, but that's part of the building process.

 

Take the build I posted for example. You cast tide pool and command your minions into it, then Whitecap into the pack, fire off the -regen grenade, and then Explosive Blast (which in hindsight should be slotted with KB->KD). Through this you get very high FFB uptime, two -res procs on the pack, and enough damage to kill minions so your pets can focus on the remaining debuffed LT's and bosses.

Edited January 2 by Auroxis

[TheSpiritFox]

7 hours ago, tidge said:

It is a new calendar year, so I'll repeat that I don't think a Mastermind should be "proc-bombing" any of its powers. It is far better IMO to leverage slots in MM attacks to get set bonuses. The most worthwhile "procs" for MM attacks are IMO, those that do %-Resistance (Annihilation also has useful set bonuses for MMs) and any that can give %Absorb (such as Superior Entomb) because of Bodyguard mode mechanics. A soft control like knockdown can also be useful, because flopping enemies don't fight back.

I wish I knew where the thread was. I think it might have gotten posted on reddit, but someone did damage testing with and without procs. 

Procs are a significant damage increase. Particularly for the wolves in beasts, clouded senses in any of the zombie powers, a defense debuff proc in any of the mercs, or the same procs in enforcers. Masterminds interact with procs in an interesting way, each individual attack has its own proc timer, and with no recharge applied that means multiple independent ppm mechanics in parallel, which means higher proc rates overall. I remember reading someone say that damage wise its actually significantly better mathematically to specifically proc bomb wolves with a pair of accuracies over slotting a set if you can afford it in your build because it adds that much damage to them. 

My mercs, thugs, and zombies MMs all have damage procs in the builds. And like, my mercs/elec is literally unkillable outside of more than 2 group threat saturation in farms with aoe attacks like fireball and flame breath because my fire resist only goes so high so having more than 34 enemies engaged all at the same time overpowers even my insane level of heal and absorb. 

But I mean, if you throw a cool billion influence at a character, its unlikely that adding a few procs to your MMs is going to significantly impact other build goals. 

And I will remind you, there are only so many ways to increase pet damage yourself in your own build. Generally when talking about procs and set bonuses you're talking about like, hasten being 2:07 recharge instead of 2:00 and in exchange you got a hefty ass damage increase. Single target attacks will proc more often than not. Aoe attacks will usually proc on multiple enemies if you hit the target cap. 

I'm gonna take this new years to argue in the opposite direction. Pets that take procs can often significantly benefit from them and can help generate a noticeable decrease in kill time. 

I just feel like you are way over emphasizing the benefit of set bonuses and way under emphasizing the effect of procs. 

Finally, while knockdown is a great soft control, OF is only a 20% flat proc rate. You'd do better with a soulbound allegiance, I've seen it proc so much that it definitely seems more up than down for all 3 minions when placed in the first power. And a 20% additional knockdown rate generally isn't going to make shit worth of difference for a well built mastermind. 

Edited January 2 by TheSpiritFox

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, TheSpiritFox said:

Finally, while knockdown is a great soft control, OF is only a 20% flat proc rate.

 

It's 2.5 PPM, not a flat 20% chance.

(Unfortunately that particular bit of forum disinformation just refuses to die!)

 

FWIW I find it useful to Frankenslot that Proc into the Assault Bot, but it pulls double duty there for KB>KD conversion. The only pets that I've ever bothered slotting it into for mitigation purposes are my Crabbermind's spiderlings.

[tidge]

2 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said:

I wish I knew where the thread was. I think it might have gotten posted on reddit, but someone did damage testing with and without procs. 

Procs are a significant damage increase. Particularly for the wolves in beasts, clouded senses in any of the zombie powers, a defense debuff proc in any of the mercs, or the same procs in enforcers. Masterminds interact with procs in an interesting way, each individual attack has its own proc timer, and with no recharge applied that means multiple independent ppm mechanics in parallel, which means higher proc rates overall. I remember reading someone say that damage wise its actually significantly better mathematically to specifically proc bomb wolves with a pair of accuracies over slotting a set if you can afford it in your build because it adds that much damage to them.

 

When I write "don't bother with %damage in MM attacks" I am referring to the Mastermind's attacks, not the henchmen powers. Masterminds have a serious endurance tax and can only make a fraction of the attacks that henchmen collectively can. There is also a sort of opportunity cost involved with spending time making attacks instead of doing something else, although that varies depending on other powers available. Applying something like a %-Resistance for 10 seconds (or longer) so the henchmen can pile on more damage is so much more effective than a sometimes chance at 70 HP from a MM attack. This is the same argument for why I don't think a MM leveraging the Gaussian's %Build Up for itself isn't much value.

 

Slot the henchmen for %damage to your hearts content, but it is necessary to have the henchmen actually hitting for the %procs to have a chance to work. Robotics (see thread title) by itself offers few places to slot the global resistance/defense uniques, so there are trade-offs. Tactics can help, but then it becomes necessary to keep it toggled on, etc.

 

50 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

FWIW I find it useful to Frankenslot that Proc into the Assault Bot, but it pulls double duty there for KB>KD conversion. The only pets that I've ever bothered slotting it into for mitigation purposes are my Crabbermind's spiderlings.

 

The Spiderlings are pets of course, and not henchmen... and they only have two attacks IIRC, and they are pretty disposable (luckily on a somewhat short pet timer), so with a max of three of them the OF KB->KD piece is as good an any to use for them.  Since the Robotics KB was minimized, the only MM henchmen that I thought was flimsy enough to warrant the OF KB->KD piece were the T1 Ninjas. FWIW, I consider Crabberminds to be an excellent AT to have the Gaussian's %Build Up in one of their Tactic powers, as they have much better damage scales and inherently more powerful attacks.

[Onlyasandwich]

3 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said:

OF is only a 20% flat proc rate.

I recently discovered that this is not the case, unfortunately. CoD lists it as running at 2.5 PPM (in CoD we trust!). The description is misleading.
Edit: I see that @Maelwys already pointed this out!

 

That being said, it can still be quite useful! I also like to use the Ragnarok KD proc at times in my own attacks - it has a higher 3.5 PPM. That's like ~40% chance in many MM aoes!

 

As for the attacks, others above me have more or less further expressed my thoughts on this matter. 

 

Even on the busiest sets in the world (Kinetics, EA perhaps?) there is still downtime between buffs and debuffs where you can throw out some kind of attack. It's frequent enough that what these attacks do is meaningful. If they are poop due to low MM base damage only, then that's not so hot. If I can make them pretty decent through leveraging procs, why wouldn't I? I could get a little more global recharge or a smattering of resists/defense instead with set bonuses. That's fine for some builds if you have to lean on slotting here to reach certain breakpoints like softcap, but more often it's not necessary, and the damage added by procs is very meaningful.

 

On my recently spooled up Bots/Traps, for example, the options I have for stuff to do outside of attacking include:

• More Acid Mortar. (Yay, hit that right a way! Not exactly spamming it with the cooldown though).
• Poison trap. (Okay - I hit it in my opener. Maybe if the battle is long I get another chance).
• Triage beacon (Generally low priority/impact. Will be in my opener for a difficult engage, but most often not getting another deployment in a given engagement).
• Tossing out some caltrops (fine - I do it, it's nice and helps me shape the battlefield. Not exactly changing the world here though, and still not spammy).
• Seeker Drones (Some folks don't even bother. I use them in the opener, and they don't usually get hit therafter).

 

Unless you are constantly resummoning your pets, many sets simply wouldn't have a heckuva lot to do outside of attacking! Sure, some fights go there, but that is more the exception. I do manage my pets as well, and that has a certain mental load, but it doesn't trigger any cooldowns. Meanwhile, I'll be bopping out those photon grenades and Pulse Rifle Bursts pretty steadily, and I want them to hit as hard as possible while doing so. I agree that guassian's is not so hot on a MM. Although if you put it in tactics it will have good uptime due to all the pet targets to trigger off, it's modifying your meager base damage. I'd generally rather squeeze an actual damage proc in somewhere 😉 .

 

 

[tidge]

25 minutes ago, Onlyasandwich said:

Unless you are constantly resummoning your pets, many sets simply wouldn't have a heckuva lot to do outside of attacking! Sure, some fights go there, but that is more the exception. I do manage my pets as well, and that has a certain mental load, but it doesn't trigger any cooldowns. Meanwhile, I'll be bopping out those photon grenades and Pulse Rifle Bursts pretty steadily, and I want them to hit as hard as possible while doing so.

 

I get this, but I feel like burning all that extra Endurance from a %proc-focused attack is something of a losing battle. I suppose if the Mastermind doesn't have a full suite of henchmen I'd feel differently.

 

My Robotics' MMs attacks (which I'm basically spamming) are slotted like this:

 

Level 2:                 Pulse Rifle Burst

 (A) Sudden Acceleration - Knockback to Knockdown

 (*) Sudden Acceleration - Knockback/Accuracy/Damage

 (*) Sudden Acceleration - Knockback/Accuracy

 (*) Sudden Acceleration - Knockback/Damage/Endurance

 (*) Sudden Acceleration - Knockback/Damage/Recharge

 (*) Sudden Acceleration - Knockback/Recharge

 

Level 8:                 Photon Grenade             

 (A) Annihilation - Accuracy/Damage

 (*) Annihilation - Damage/RechargeTime

 (*) Annihilation - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance

 (*) Annihilation - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime

 (*) Annihilation - Chance for Res Debuff

 (*) Annihilation - Accuracy/Damage/RechargeTime

 

Level 38:              Mace Beam Volley         

 (A) Sudden Acceleration - Knockback to Knockdown

 (*) Annihilation - Accuracy/Damage

 (*) Annihilation - Damage/RechargeTime

 (*) Annihilation - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance

 (*) Annihilation - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime

 (*) Annihilation - Chance for Res Debuff

 

So... healthy set bonuses to help with the Blue Bar, some more Global Recharge, some positional defenses, etc. The single-target Pulse Rifle Burst isn't going to be a great net source of damage from %damage, so it has a little bit of soft control (KD, obviously still single-target). The AoE attacks are better for %damage, but keeping a -Resistance up (in an AoE) is a net boost for the squad's damage. The KB->KD in Mace Beam Volley is there to help keep targets in the patches put down by the Robots... the character already has crazy good AoE defenses and doesn't need a second 6-slot bonus there.

 

There is obviously a sort a shell game with slots and bonuses... The MM ATO sets can get 40% global recharge from just 10 pieces, with global recharge being the #1 reason why I normally go for set bonuses (using Purple sets at 50), MMV... I mention this because for me, this basically takes Purple sets in the attacks off the table... and opens up the build space. I have Maneuvers and Tactics somewhat minimally slotted, and a 6-slot investment in Scorpion Shield (Reactive Defenses) and a 5-slot Investment in Tough (for mules). In the open world, the only toggles I typically keep on are Maneuvers and Tactics, if I think of it I'll toggle on Scorpion Shield for some fights... I probably should use Tough and Weave more often but in practice I almost always keep them off.

 

Having written all that, I do have one power in the secondary a very reliable large AoE Hold that has two %damage plus the %+Absorb Winter piece in it, and another large AoE that has good on-cast %damage chances, so it's not as if I am allergic to %damage on MMs. Some of those %damage pieces are providing set bonuses, the ones that aren't would only be providing minimal (in my estimation) quality-of-life improvements if used elsewhere, such as Endurance reduction in some toggle, a little more KB protection (but not above any important threshold), etc.

[Auroxis]

I wouldn't go Mace Mastery with Robots/Time, as Protector Bot's shield makes the the +def from Power Boost Farsight superfluous for the most part and Scorpion Shield is overcapping you by quite a bit. You can just go Mu Mastery for the res shield, and +rech and -res procced Thunder Strike instead (so you have all 3 -res procs covered, and force feedback proc makes it easier to build recharge). You can IMO even drop the fighting pool for an easier time with endurance, since you're already softcapped.

 

It's definitely not a losing battle to go heavier with your proc slotting, just requires a bit of tinkering.

Edited January 2 by Auroxis

[Onlyasandwich]

48 minutes ago, tidge said:

I get this, but I feel like burning all that extra Endurance from a %proc-focused attack is something of a losing battle

 

An example of my slotting here for Pulse Rifle Burst.

 

This gives me some great set bonuses (15% slow res, 6% F/C resist), along with all the acc/dam I need, and more Endredux than you get from most attacks slotted with a full set. The most meaningful end impact overall is endredux in clickies. Second to that, max end (annihilation is pretty nice as you noted) is a good bonus, and can be gotten with only a partial set, leaving plenty of room for procs.

 

With procs, this power does 233 damage on average. Without, it does 108 on average.

 

Most every proccy power I go for will incorporate some baseline of Acc, Dam, and end, and a set that requires minimal investment to get to good bonuses, or at least some bonuses along the way. I generally avoid Acc/Dam Hami-os for this reason, both in favor of the extra small set bonuses, and avoiding the extra cost for little return.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tidge]

31 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

I wouldn't go Mace Mastery with Robots/Time, as Protector Bot's shield makes the the +def from Power Boost Farsight superfluous for the most part and Scorpion Shield is overcapping you by quite a bit.

 

For me, it was the option for Defense slotting, plus the AoE cone attack I wanted.

[...]

@tidge

 

I mean the big thing is that set bonuses do nothing for your henchmen. Period full stop. 

 

MM tend to be pretty tanky by being support+team rolled up into a single character. Plus BG mode. 

 

So you might as well do more damage with procs in your attacks. Dmg is king, as they say. 

 

That's how I see it. At least for now 😛

[TheSpiritFox]

12 hours ago, Onlyasandwich said:

 

An example of my slotting here for Pulse Rifle Burst.

 

This gives me some great set bonuses (15% slow res, 6% F/C resist), along with all the acc/dam I need, and more Endredux than you get from most attacks slotted with a full set. The most meaningful end impact overall is endredux in clickies. Second to that, max end (annihilation is pretty nice as you noted) is a good bonus, and can be gotten with only a partial set, leaving plenty of room for procs.

 

With procs, this power does 233 damage on average. Without, it does 108 on average.

 

Most every proccy power I go for will incorporate some baseline of Acc, Dam, and end, and a set that requires minimal investment to get to good bonuses, or at least some bonuses along the way. I generally avoid Acc/Dam Hami-os for this reason, both in favor of the extra small set bonuses, and avoiding the extra cost for little return.

You build MM's like I do. Get your basic defenses in place and then as much as you can balls to the wall damage. Dead shit doesn't do damage. 

I didn't fit extra procs into my bots/time's attacks only because I got all 5 of my 10% recharge bonuses out of the way in the primary and being able to triple stack acid mortars does alot more for damage overall than a couple of procs would, but pulse rifle blast has the purple proc from the single target ranged set (bad at names)

Its also worth noting if you get your traps down to like 25 second recharges, with the 3 second cast times, traps actually becomes a busy set. Because if you rotate through your powers once, you've got time for one of each blast basically before they start coming up again. 

Edited January 3 by TheSpiritFox

[tidge]

10 hours ago, ... said:

@tidge

 

I mean the big thing is that set bonuses do nothing for your henchmen. Period full stop. 

 

So you might as well do more damage with procs in your attacks. Dmg is king, as they say.

 

The henchmen ARE the damage for the MM! Boosting the henchmen damage via enemy debuffs is getting more damage from however many attacks six henchmen can make in the window of -Resistance.

 

Set bonuses like global Recharge, Endurance (recovery, MaxEnd, Discount) all make the MM more effective than rando single-target 70 damage against whatever... especially for 'bots, which are AoE focused.

[...]

45 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

The henchmen ARE the damage for the MM! 

 

At the risk of making this circular,  that's exactly my point; Henchmen do not directly benefit from set bonuses. 

 

Look up BRADICALs Demon/Marine setup. Current best single target damage setup in the game, across all ATs. 

[tidge]

40 minutes ago, ... said:

 

At the risk of making this circular,  that's exactly my point; Henchmen do not directly benefit from set bonuses. 

 

Look up BRADICALs Demon/Marine setup. Current best single target damage setup in the game, across all ATs. 

 

You are not offering a deep insight. Nobody who has played the game believes that pets/henchmen benefit from set bonuses.