Allow more than one power to be on auto activate at a time.

[nzer]

6 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Gonna be That Guy™ and point out deciding Hasten is strictly necessary on every build and picking it as your auto-cast are both choices.

 

That doesn't have anything to do with what I said or what I was responding to. If you're going to argue that wanting more than one autocast means your powersets or AT need to be reworked, that argument has to somehow square itself with the fact that there are pool powers you might realistically want to have on autocast. Like hasten.

 

You don't even have to go that far, frankly. What if your primary and secondary powerset both have an ability that lends itself to autocast? Is that not allowed from a design perspective?

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Lazarillo said:

I'd note that if you need more than one power to be on auto to make a powerset (or a whole AT) work, that's more a sign that said powerset (or said AT) needs a balance pass.

More likely, the player needs to adjust their approach to the set.

 

25 minutes ago, nzer said:

1 hour ago, Lazarillo said:

I'd note that if you need more than one power to be on auto to make a powerset (or a whole AT) work, that's more a sign that said powerset (or said AT) needs a balance pass.

 

Hasten is a thing, so this would mean no powerset could ever have an ability you want to autocast. Or that hasten would need to be reworked, which I don't think there's much appetite for.

Not this again.... Hasten is not required for anything in the game. If you want to take Hasten? By all means, that is why it is there, so players can take it and use it. However, this nonsense that it must be taken and further, it must be autocast, is just that, nonsense. It is a player choice, not a requirement.

 

27 minutes ago, nzer said:

Again, I don't really understand why people care whether it's possible to AFK farm or not. Very few people are going to create a character just to AFK farm, those that want to already can and can even fully automate the character with external macros, and as far as I can tell AFK farming and even farming in general has done basically nothing to shift market prices over the past four years. So why exactly are we interested in sacrificing quality of life in the rest of the game to curtail farming? It seems like little more than an attempt to police how other people want to enjoy the game, which I'm not super cool with.

If farmers want to farm, go ahead. If players want to make the game an idler where all their toggles turn on for them and all their clickies click as soon as they recharge for them and all their attacks auto-fire at their auto-selected targets? No thanks.

[nzer]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Not this again.... Hasten is not required for anything in the game. If you want to take Hasten? By all means, that is why it is there, so players can take it and use it. However, this nonsense that it must be taken and further, it must be autocast, is just that, nonsense. It is a player choice, not a requirement.

 

Again, this does not have anything to do with what I said or what I responded to. I didn't say hasten has to be taken on all builds and has to always be autocast. I'm saying that if you're going to argue wanting more than one autocast represents a failure in the design of your powersets, that argument has to be squared with abilities outside the powersets that lend themselves to autocast.

 

In an effort to not derail the thread, I'm not going to explain this again.

 

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

If farmers want to farm, go ahead. If players want to make the game an idler where all their toggles turn on for them and all their clickies click as soon as they recharge for them and all their attacks auto-fire at their auto-selected targets? No thanks.

 

So you are trying to police how other people play even though it does not affect you at all? Cool, well I disagree with that, and frankly this is a blatant slippery slope fallacy.

Edited February 21 by nzer

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, nzer said:

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

If farmers want to farm, go ahead. If players want to make the game an idler where all their toggles turn on for them and all their clickies click as soon as they recharge for them and all their attacks auto-fire at their auto-selected targets? No thanks.

 

So you are trying to police how other people play even though it does not affect you at all? Cool, well I disagree with that, and frankly this is a blatant slippery slope fallacy.

If this is me policing how others play rather than me trying to keep the game from mutating into something it isn't? Then I am. Could someone give me my unofficial official play police badge please? Thanks.

[nzer]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

If this is me policing how others play rather than me trying to keep the game from mutating into something it isn't?

 

If you think two or three autocasts instead of one with additional restrictions to prevent abuse constitutes the game becoming an idle game, then yes, it is absolutely you policing how other people play for no reason. That's a patently ridiculous stance any way you slice it.

[megaericzero]

1 hour ago, nzer said:

If you're going to argue that wanting more than one autocast means your powersets or AT need to be reworked

1 hour ago, nzer said:

I'm saying that if you're going to argue wanting more than one autocast represents a failure in the design of your powersets,

I feel the opposite; it speaks nothing to any powersets/archetypes - it speaks to your mentality on builds and/or interfacing with the game.

 

More what I was addressing - and maybe I'm reading too deep but your responses seem to circle back to it - is the assertion that hasten is not only assumed in all builds but also assumed to be a ubiquitous autofire candidate. Sure x% of the population takes it and y% of them set it to autofire but that is an active choice to use the autofire function you've been given on that particular power/function. I don't feel that meta choices should be given special treatment or exemptions (eg: inherent fitness and the periodic suggestion that tough/weave shouldn't have pre-reqs).

[nzer]

10 hours ago, megaericzero said:

and maybe I'm reading too deep but your responses seem to circle back to it - is the assertion that hasten is not only assumed in all builds but also assumed to be a ubiquitous autofire candidate

 

I'm not asserting or even implying either of those things.

 

If Hasten is too distracting, think instead about a */SR/Energy scrapper with enough recharge to make Conserve Power perma who wants to be able to autocast Conserve Power and Practiced Brawler. Or any other scrapper/tanker/brute/stalker who wants to do the same thing, since many armor powersets have clicky mez protection. Or a Time/ defender who has Farsight and Chrono Shift perma and wants to autocast them. Or whatever other example you want, there are many.

 

10 hours ago, megaericzero said:

but that is an active choice to use the autofire function you've been given on that particular power/function.

 

This is not an argument for why there should only be one autocast. It is a cop-out to avoid having to make a real argument.

 

Why is only allowing one autocast good for the game? The game's power design, both in powersets and in power pools, creates a reasonable use case for multiple autocasts on clicky self-buffs, and this restriction precludes that use case. So what problem is it solving, is it the only solution to that problem, and is solving that problem worth sacrificing quality of life?

 

As far as I can tell, all the problems it could be attempting to solve could also be solved by restricting autocast from being used on any ability that can affect enemies. And that solution wouldn't hurt quality of life.

Edited February 21 by nzer

[Luminara]

The game isn't balanced around players having the ability to set up multiple auto-click powers.  If the limitation were relaxed, powers would be adjusted to compensate.  Not being able to do something like set Hasten, Domination, Clarion, Rebirth and Link Minds all on auto is why powers like those can be as strong as they are.

 

Balance matters to this development team as much as it did to the previous teams, so I don't foresee them throwing it all in the toilet by allowing multiple powers to be auto-fired.

 

[nzer]

There's no earthly way having to click one or two buttons every several minutes can be considered an element of difficulty. You're going to have to make some kind of substantive argument to support that claim, because it's ridiculous.

 

Never mind that autocasting that many powers can already be done by cycling the autocast with binds, so the game had better be designed around it.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, nzer said:

Never mind that autocasting that many powers can already be done by cycling the autocast with binds, so the game had better be designed around it.

So the game had better be designed around being able to autocast as many powers as you want?

 

Here's a dumb question: If we can already autocast as many powers as we want, just with binds, then why not just do that? No need for the devs to spend time coding something new that can already be done, right? If the means to autocast everything already exists, then what is the issue with us disagreeing with yet more means to make the game play itself?

[nzer]

Just now, Rudra said:

Here's a dumb question: If we can already autocast as many powers as we want, just with binds, then why not just do that? No need for the devs to spend time coding something new that can already be done, right? If the means to autocast everything already exists, then what is the issue with us disagreeing with yet more means to make the game play itself?

 

There are two reasons:

• Requiring it to be done with binds gates the feature to only players who have an advanced understanding of the game's commands, or who happen to read about it on a forum, while actively implying to all other players that multiple autocasting is intentionally impossible
• It is janky and unpredictable if you don't spam your keys to ensure cycling, which can aggravate or even induce repetitive strain injuries

Whether these things are an acceptable cost for avoiding having to spend dev time on a proper implementation is up to the devs, not us, and that is therefore not a good reason to shoot down a suggestion.

 

And I really can't take the argument that this would constitute the game "playing itself" seriously. We're talking about autocasting several minute long self-buffs here, not automating an attack chain. If you think having to recast Practiced Brawler or Kuji-In Rin every two minutes is a critical, inviolable element of the game's play experience, I have to wonder whether we're even talking about the same game.

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, nzer said:

It is janky and unpredictable if you don't spam your keys to ensure cycling

Do you really think that if the devs were to for some reason agree to implement multiple power autocasting, it wouldn't also be janky and unpredictable? Seriously? In a game where just tabbing between targets will sometimes fail?

[nzer]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Do you really think that if the devs were to for some reason agree to implement multiple power autocasting, it wouldn't also be janky and unpredictable? Seriously? In a game where just tabbing between targets will sometimes fail?

 

"We can't implement this because the implementation might not work" isn't a compelling argument for reasons that should be obvious, but we're also talking about very different degrees of janky and unpredictable here.

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, nzer said:

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Do you really think that if the devs were to for some reason agree to implement multiple power autocasting, it wouldn't also be janky and unpredictable? Seriously? In a game where just tabbing between targets will sometimes fail?

 

"We can't implement this because the implementation might not work" isn't a compelling argument for reasons that should be obvious, but we're also talking about very different degrees of janky and unpredictable here.

I'm not using it as such. I'm using it solely to counter your argument that the current method of using binds is janky and unpredictable. My stance on not allowing players to set multiple powers to autocast is strictly based on not making it easier to farm and not turning the game into an auto-playing idler.

[Shenanigunner]

13 minutes ago, nzer said:

There are two reasons:

• Requiring it to be done with binds gates the feature to only players who have an advanced understanding of the game's commands, or who happen to read about it on a forum, while actively implying to all other players that multiple autocasting is intentionally impossible
• It is janky and unpredictable if you don't spam your keys to ensure cycling, which can aggravate or even induce repetitive strain injuries

 

• There's a comprehensive guide to binds and macros that starts from zero knowledge and provides every bit of knowledge needed to implement your own or ones you borrow; it's no more beyond most players than, say, mastering basic slotting. If you choose not to read anything longer than 100 words related to any aspect of the game, that's on you.
• As the fundamental controls of the game are all binds, they're janky only if you screw them up.

[nzer]

7 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I'm not using it as such. I'm using it solely to counter your argument that the current method of using binds is janky and unpredictable.

 

And the purpose of countering that argument is to argue against the implementation of this suggestion, so yes, you are absolutely using it as such. You are saying there's no reason to implement this suggestion because a proper implementation will be just as janky and unpredictable as the hacky way players currently replicate this functionality.

 

This is a patently bad faith argument in the first place, because it assumes the devs are too incompetent to implement the feature without bugs, or to fix any bugs that emerge.

 

7 minutes ago, Rudra said:

My stance on not allowing players to set multiple powers to autocast is strictly based on not making it easier to farm and not turning the game into an auto-playing idler.

 

Then you should have no problem with multiple autocasts so long as they're restricted from being used on powers that affect enemies, as has already been suggested.

 

3 minutes ago, Shenanigunner said:

There's a comprehensive guide to binds and macros that starts from zero knowledge and provides every bit of knowledge needed to implement your own or ones you borrow; it's no more beyond most players than, say, mastering basic slotting. If you choose not to read anything longer than 100 words related to any aspect of the game, that's on you.

 

Except it's not on you, because the game could provide this behavior as a first class feature. Having to discover and read a guide on a forum somewhere to be able to take advantage of this feature is a gate, whether you want to admit it or not.

 

5 minutes ago, Shenanigunner said:

As the fundamental controls of the game are all binds, they're janky only if you screw them up.

 

That's not what I mean. If you have autocast cycling set up on a set of keys, you have to hit all of those keys at regular intervals to ensure reliable activation of the abilities. If they're on your movement keys, for example, what happens if you just don't move backward very often? What happens if you happen to not strafe left for several minutes? Etc.

 

The solution to this is to absentmindedly spam the keys constantly, which is a degenerate play pattern that shouldn't be encouraged.

[Luminara]

6 minutes ago, nzer said:

There's no earthly way having to click one or two buttons every several minutes can be considered an element of difficulty.

 

I said the game wasn't balanced around players having the option to set multiple powers to auto-fire.  Convenience is not the measure of that balance, and someone of your "years of professional software development experience, decades on forums for numerous games" (see below) should be cognizant of that.

 

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, nzer said:

18 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I'm not using it as such. I'm using it solely to counter your argument that the current method of using binds is janky and unpredictable.

 

And the purpose of countering that argument is to argue against the implementation of this suggestion, so yes, you are absolutely using it as such. You are saying there's no reason to implement this suggestion because a proper implementation will be just as janky and unpredictable as the hacky way players currently replicate this functionality.

 

This is a patently bad faith argument in the first place, because it assumes the devs are too incompetent to implement the feature without bugs, or to fix any bugs that emerge.

 

44 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Here's a dumb question: If we can already autocast as many powers as we want, just with binds, then why not just do that? No need for the devs to spend time coding something new that can already be done, right? If the means to autocast everything already exists, then what is the issue with us disagreeing with yet more means to make the game play itself?

Keep reaching. Because as my quote of myself shows, that is not what I was saying. At all.

 

6 minutes ago, nzer said:

20 minutes ago, Rudra said:

My stance on not allowing players to set multiple powers to autocast is strictly based on not making it easier to farm and not turning the game into an auto-playing idler.

 

Then you should have no problem with multiple autocasts so long as they're restricted from being used on powers that affect enemies, as has already been suggested.

I am less opposed to that, but am still opposed to it. Why? Because I am against making this game like an idler game. The more things we make auto, the less involved the player is in playing the game.

 

8 minutes ago, nzer said:

Except it's not on you, because the game could provide this behavior as a first class feature. Having to discover and read a guide on a forum somewhere to be able to take advantage of this feature is a gate, whether you want to admit it or not.

Then the game itself is gated because we have to go looking for it instead of it just loading itself for us. And the place where it is located to be found and installed from? Are these forums. So they are already coming to these forums, where there is a plethora of additional information to help them get along in the game, as well as the wiki. So your gating argument falls apart.

10 minutes ago, nzer said:

That's not what I mean. If you have autocast cycling set up on a set of keys, you have to hit all of those keys at regular intervals to ensure reliable activation of the abilities. If they're on your movement keys, for example, what happens if you just don't move backward very often? What happens if you happen to not strafe left for several minutes? Etc.

Then why are you binding powers to things like strafing or moving backward if you know you aren't going to always be strafing or moving backward? That definitely sounds like a you problem.

[nzer]

19 minutes ago, Luminara said:

I said the game wasn't balanced around players having the option to set multiple powers to auto-fire.  Convenience is not the measure of that balance

 

I don't have any idea what this is supposed to mean. If something is trivially easy, how can it possibly be a balance consideration?

 

You're welcome to substantiate this point by explaining how the game is balanced around players only having one autocast, if you can.

 

17 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Because I am against making this game like an idler game. The more things we make auto, the less involved the player is in playing the game.

 

Then I suppose we should remove attacks automatically targeting if a target isn't selected, the follow command, the entire macro system, the ability to load bind files in other bind files, etc., because those are all things that make the game more "auto." Might as well remove targeting altogether and make players aim their abilities, right? Why have health bars? Just physically simulate each character, right?

 

Except none of those things are going to happen, because whether something is considered "too idle" is a matter of degree, not black and white, and allowing multiple autocast for self-buffs does not move that needle even a little bit.

 

22 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Then the game itself is gated because we have to go looking for it instead of it just loading itself for us. And the place where it is located to be found and installed from? Are these forums. So they are already coming to these forums, where there is a plethora of additional information to help them get along in the game, as well as the wiki. So your gating argument falls apart.

 

Correct, the game itself is gated because players must come to this site to install it, which is why the installer is linked very prominently right on the homepage.

 

And do you genuinely think every player who comes to this site for the installer goes on to read the forum? Because they don't. I'd be surprised if even 10% did, frankly.

 

24 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Then why are you binding powers to things like strafing or moving backward if you know you aren't going to always be strafing or moving backward? That definitely sounds like a you problem.

 

You'd have the same problem no matter what you bound them to, and the only reason I mentioned movement keys is because that's the most commonly suggested method.

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, nzer said:

 

I don't have any idea what this is supposed to mean. If something is trivially easy, how can it possibly be a balance consideration?

 

You're welcome to substantiate this point by explaining how the game is balanced around players only having one autocast, if you can.

 

 

Then I suppose we should remove attacks automatically targeting if a target isn't selected, the follow command, the entire macro system, the ability to load bind files in other bind files, etc., because those are all things that make the game more "auto." Might as well remove targeting altogether and make players aim their abilities, right? Why have health bars? Just physically simulate each character, right?

 

Except none of those things are going to happen, because whether something is considered "too idle" is a matter of degree, not black and white, and allowing multiple autocast for self-buffs does not move that needle even a little bit.

 

 

Correct, the game itself is gated because players must come to this site to install it, which is why the installer is linked very prominently right on the homepage.

 

And do you genuinely think every player who comes to this site for the installer goes on to read the forum? Because they don't. I'd be surprised if even 10% did, frankly.

 

 

You'd have the same problem no matter what you bound them to, and the only reason I mentioned movement keys is because that's the most commonly suggested method.

Your arguments are getting more and more bizarre. I'm tired of this rabbit hole. My opinion is more autocast is bad, and I'm leaving it at that.

[megaericzero]

2 hours ago, nzer said:

since many armor powersets have clicky mez protection.

Are there more than just SR and Nin? I agree Practiced Brawler and Kuji-in-Rin are annoying to keep up because all other armors get their mez protection on a toggle that can be left on 24/7. Those are actually the only powers I auto.

 

My actual contention was that your example always listed hasten as the auto; thanks for providing an alternate example.

 

28 minutes ago, nzer said:

The solution to this is to absentmindedly spam the keys constantly, which is a degenerate play pattern that shouldn't be encouraged.

I think there's something to be said about requiring active physical engagement in keeping multiple buffs up to elevate your character's performance. You want to do sick street racing maneuvers in your suped-up car, you better be ready to shuffle between the clutch, the handbrake, the gearshift, etc.

 

3 minutes ago, nzer said:

whether something is considered "too idle" is a matter of degree, not black and white

Yes, and we draw lines at different spots in the sand. It happens that those of us voicing in opposition are all on the other side of your line.

[nzer]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Your arguments are getting more and more bizarre. I'm tired of this rabbit hole. My opinion is more autocast is bad, and I'm leaving it at that.

 

I don't know what was bizarre about what I said, and I'm pretty sure this is just an excuse to avoid having to substantiate your arguments. But sure, more power to you.

 

6 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Are there more than just SR and Nin?

 

Shield defense as well. I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

 

6 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Yes, and we draw lines at different spots in the sand. It happens that those of us voicing in opposition are all on the other side of your line.

 

I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is when someone draws the line at a different spot in the sand and can't or won't attempt to articulate why they've drawn it there beyond "more auto == bad," which is relevant because if it was clear why they've drawn the line where they have it might be possible to find a different solution that both sides are okay with.

[Rudra]

19 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Are there more than just SR and Nin?

Shield Defense.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, nzer said:

21 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Your arguments are getting more and more bizarre. I'm tired of this rabbit hole. My opinion is more autocast is bad, and I'm leaving it at that.

 

I don't know what was bizarre about what I said, and I'm pretty sure this is just an excuse to avoid having to substantiate your arguments. But sure, more power to you.

 

27 minutes ago, nzer said:

Then I suppose we should remove attacks automatically targeting if a target isn't selected, the follow command, the entire macro system, the ability to load bind files in other bind files, etc., because those are all things that make the game more "auto." Might as well remove targeting altogether and make players aim their abilities, right? Why have health bars? Just physically simulate each character, right?

 

[megaericzero]

1 minute ago, nzer said:

Shield defense as well.

Just now, Rudra said:

Shield Defense.

Thank you. I forgot that one.