Inquiring about criticals and related unique IOs

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Currently learning more about criticals and scrappers. City of Data and Mids information may be taken to suggest the following:

A. The base critical chance for an attack is 5% for a scrapper, by default.

B. If a critical happens then the base damage of a power doubles (ie: a base damage of 50 becomes 100). 

C. The "Superior Scrapper Strikes" recharge / critical hit bonus IO increases the critical chance by a flat 3% (from 5% to 8%) when it is placed into a power. This bonus is "always on" as long as the relevant unique IO is slotted into a power and it never needs to be activated by any attack. 

D. The "Superior Critical Strikes" (ie: catalyzed) "recharge / +50% crit proc IO" activates 4 times per minute, on average. 

E. When activated, the +50% crit proc IO increases the chances of a crit to 58% (8% + 50% = 58%) as long as the unique +3% critical hit bonus IO is slotted into a power and the follow-up attack(s) to a "+50% crit proc IO" activation finish within 3.25 seconds after the "Animation time before effect" of the activating power finishes up. This is a lot to take in, so here's a simplified possible combat event log ...

1. "Initiating power" activates the +50% crit proc IO and the "initiating power's" 1.188 arcanatime casting time begins. 
    - The timer for the "animation time before effect" begins when the "initiating power" is activated. 
2. The "animation time before effect" of the "initiating power" = 0.688 seconds
    - the 3.25 second activation period for the +50% crit proc IO begins immediately after "2" above
3. After 0.5 seconds (1.188 - 0.688 = 0.5 seconds) the arcanatime casting time for the "initiating power" ends. 
    - The remaining window of time for a 58% crit chance is now 2.75 seconds, as 0.5 seconds is lost 
4. 1st follow-up attack has an arcanatime casting time of 1.584 seconds and a crit chance of 58%.
    - This attack both begins and finishes its arcanatime casting time within the 3.25 second activation period of the +50% crit proc IO.
5. 2nd follow-up attack has an arcanatime casting time of 1.32 seconds and a crit chance of 8%.
    - This attack begins, but does not finish, its arcanatime casting time within the 3.25 second activation period of the +50% crit proc IO. 

Event 5 is true because ...

- The 3.25 seconds of activation time for the +50% crit proc IO became 2.75 seconds after losing 0.5 seconds when the "initiating power" took 0.5 seconds after the animation time before effect ended to finish up the arcanatime casting time. 
- The sum of arcanatime casting times for the 1st and 2nd follow-up attacks equals 2.904 seconds, which is greater than the remaining 2.75 seconds of +50% crit proc IO activation time. So, the 1st follow-up attack began and ended in a timely way (ergo, 58% proc chance), but the 2nd follow-up attack did not finish up before the +50% crit proc IO activation time expired (ergo, 8% proc chance). 

Am I misunderstanding anything about how critical strikes function? If so, then where am I going wrong? 

Thank you in advance for any feedback provided!

Edited February 22 by EnjoyTheJourney

[aethereal]

Base crit rate against lieutenants, bosses, EBs, AVs, and GMs is 10%.  It's only 5% against minions and underlings.

 

There are also a substantial number of powers that have a different crit rate, usually 15%.

 

There are a substantial number of powers that have some kind of odd crit damage (not "the base damage again").

 

The PPM rate of a proc is more or less a lie.  What procs actually have is a chance of activation.  There's nothing that actually counts their number of activations in a minute, for example.  The chance of activation depends on the modified recharge time of a power, counting in "local" recharge enhancements.  The chance is such that if you activate the power on cooldown, you'll average the PPM number of procs per minute (subject to a ceiling and floor).  But global recharge does not affect proc rate, so in practice you can vastly exceed the listed PPM.

 

I believe, but am not sure, that you get the enhanced crit rate from the proc if your power is activated within the window of the proc's effect, not if it finishes activating within that window.

Edited February 22 by aethereal

[Uun]

In addition to what @aethereal said, Superior Scrappers Strike global increases critical chance by 3% for minions and underlings and 6% for higher ranked foes.

 

I'm not sure if I'm reading the Critical Strikes events correctly, but there's a 0.5s delay before the 3.25s window starts. The 0.5s doesn't reduce the window to 2.75s.

[Yomo Kimyata]

Here is my understanding (which I think is basically the same as yours).  I have been told I am 100% correct, and I have been told I am a stupid poopoo head, so I'd love some official guidance as well:

 

1.  You activate the power that contains the Critical Strike proc (I'm choosing Cleave from Battle Axe).  Animation Time Before Effect (ATBE) elapses (in this case, 1.233 seconds), then the engine checks to see a. if you hit; and b. if the proc activates.  If the proc activates, then there will be dead time while the remainder of the Arcanatime plays out (in this case, total time = 2.508 seconds - ATBE (1.233 seconds) = 1.275 seconds.

 

2.  My understanding (more on this shortly) is that the 3.25 second timer begins when the proc activates.  Since 1.275 seconds of dead time is going to occur regardless, the effective time left is 3.25 - 1.275 = 1.975 seconds where the increased critical strikes probability is in effect.  

 

3.  If a subsequent power's entire power Arcanatime is less than that remaining time (say Chop at 1.452 seconds) then that power will be clearly under the effect of the proc bonus.  Subtract that entire A-time from the remaining time (1.975 - 1.452 = 0.523 seconds) to get your new remaining time.

 

4.  If your remaining time is less than the entire A-time of a subsequent power, then see if it is greater than the ATBE of the subsequent power.  So if I use Cleave, and follow it with Axe Cyclone, the A-Time of Axe Cyclone (1.98 seconds) is greater than the remaining time from the initial Cleave (1.975 seconds), so I can't get another power in there after Axe Cyclone.  However, the activation time before effect for Axe Cyclone is 0.5 seconds, so you CAN attack Cleave, Chop, Axe Cyclone and if all attacks hit and the proc activates on Cleave, the enhanced critical rate would apply to both Chop and Axe Cyclone.

 

Here is what I do not know.

 

1 hour ago, Uun said:

I'm not sure if I'm reading the Critical Strikes events correctly, but there's a 0.5s delay before the 3.25s window starts. The 0.5s doesn't reduce the window to 2.75s.

 

I don't know what that 0.5 second delay is all about.  Does it increase the effective proc time to 3.75 seconds?  I've never assumed so and just gone with the base 3.25 second duration.

 

This shouldn't be too difficult to test, with a lot of data against a consistent target like a pylon.  However it's not completely straightforward, since you have to hit, you have to have the proc activate, you have to see if there is a probabilistic difference in observed critical hits for subsequent hits.  I'm no stranger to tedium, but this is not my brand of tedium, so I'll let someone with text editing experience work on this one.

 

Happy hunting!

 

[Uun]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I don't know what that 0.5 second delay is all about.  Does it increase the effective proc time to 3.75 seconds?  I've never assumed so and just gone with the base 3.25 second duration.

 

The link below is the enhancement containing the proc. It contains the recharge buff and calls another power that buffs the crit rate if the proc fires.

Apply "Grant Power" (self only) every 1.0s for 0.5s (100% chance)
Set_Bonus.Set_Bonus.Critical_Strikes_Proc

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=boosts.superior_attuned_superior_critical_strikes_f.superior_attuned_superior_critical_strikes_f&at=scrapper

 

The link below is the power called above. It has a cast time of 0.0s, cast arcanatime of 0.132s, animation time of 1.167s, and animation time before effect of 0.5s (I believe this is the 0.5s delay). The power lists the following effect:

+50% Global Chance Mod (self only) for 3.25s (this is repeated 3x for the different types of criticals)

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=set_bonus.set_bonus.critical_strikes_proc&at=scrapper

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

5 minutes ago, Uun said:

snip

 

im offline, so what’s the ruling?  Does this mean that there are two dead times to deal with?  Do they overlap?  Are they consecutive? 
 

my process seems to have been accurate in my casual observations that n game play — but it may be too conservative a view if we are somehow getting a half second!

[Uun]

My interpretation is that the 0.5s occurs during the animation time after the proc activates. In your example above, you would have 2.475s (not 1.975s) of increased crit chance. Ideally, you want to put the proc in a power with the shortest animation time after effect. I'm very bad about doing this and generally place it based on how it fits into my attack chain.

[Haijinx]

How much does the base recharge of the power have to be for you to fully slot the Superior Critical Strikes Scrapper IO set and still have the maximum chance to Proc when you use it?

 

For examples = 

A lot of the big hitters in the old scrapper sets are 14 seconds, and it looks like 14 seconds base is not enough to pull that off 

 

Is 20 enough?  25?

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Focusing on the minimum base recharge needed for the maximum chance to proc may be a bad bargain, though. What matters more are proc uptime and the number of powers that can be affected by each proc activation, which involves three main considerations ...

 

1. The chance to activate per attack for the power in which the crit strikes proc IO is slotted

2. The total number of chances to activate that arise per minute

3. The difference between "arcanatime casting time" and "animation time before effect" for each power in the single target attack chain

 

After a fair amount of testing four working hypotheses emerged.

 

First, having more chances to proc per minute can overcome a higher percentage of time to proc, and vice versa. So, comparing both proc chances per attack and also how many times per minute an attack will be available for different global and local recharge amounts helps for narrowing down in which power(s) slotting the crit strikes proc IO might be a good idea. 

 

Second, subtract animation time before effect from arcanatime casting time from all attacks. Think of that amount of time as "lost time" because during that time the proc activation period is ticking down, but no follow-up attack can be initiated because the proc and its timer have been activated, but the activating attack has not yet finished animating. These time gaps can vary quite a bit. So knowing the gap in time between the arcanatime casting time and the animation time before effect helps for figuring out in which power the proc IO should be slotted. As a general-but-not-universal rule, it's usually better to slot the proc IO into a power that has an arcanatime casting time and an animation time before effect that are not largely different, as that causes less of the proc activation time to disappear before possible follow-up attacks can have their crit chance increased. 

Third, to arrive at the order in which to activate follow-up attacks the power with the shortest animation time before effect is likely to be the best choice for the last attack you'd like to have affected by the crit strikes proc IO. Since it seems that the animation time before effect for an attack needs to finish up while the crit strikes proc IO is still within its activation period, having a shorter animation time before effect will usually offer a better chance of getting one more attack to be affected by the crit strikes proc IO. Naturally, if it is the case that only one follow-up attack will have an increased chance to proc then the attack that makes the biggest difference in overall damage done should be the follow-up attack.

Fourth, if you like to exemp down for lower level content a lot, then as a final consideration choosing a power that's available in earlier levels will lead to higher damage. Not sure this level of fine-grained analysis is really needed and an exemp'd down scrapper is probably going to do just fine anyways. But, if two powers look about equally attractive to receive the proc this consideration may be a tipping point for choosing one power the other. 

Also, there probably are some cases in which the activating power recharges fast enough to double stack the crit strikes proc IO. That would also mean many activation chances per minute, which tends to signify a highly desirable situation. But, balanced against these two very favorable conditions it's good to consider whether or not proc activation chances become very small as a result; that may happen if reaching a double-stack state requires lots of recharge in a power that has a short casting time and a very short base recharge time. So, when double stacking is possible the calculations have another layer of complexity to consider. 

Edited February 25 by EnjoyTheJourney

[Uun]

4 hours ago, Haijinx said:

How much does the base recharge of the power have to be for you to fully slot the Superior Critical Strikes Scrapper IO set and still have the maximum chance to Proc when you use it?

 

For examples = 

A lot of the big hitters in the old scrapper sets are 14 seconds, and it looks like 14 seconds base is not enough to pull that off 

 

Is 20 enough?  25?

There are very few powers you can slot the ATOs in that have a recharge longer than 15s. While there are a handful of PBAoEs with 20s recharges, generally these are specialty powers with 90-120s recharges (i.e., Soul Drain, Shield Charge, Ground Zero). You'll end up with an almost 100% proc chance at the expense of diminished up time. Other than those 90-120s cases, if you 6-slot the entire set, the increased recharge will reduce your proc chances. That said, if you're using the power 10+ times a minute, you'll have more opportunities to proc.

[Haijinx]

Yes I get it will reduce the chances what I am more wondering is by how much in this specific case.

 

As to long recharge attacks Crushing Uppercut for example has 25 sec base recharge.  And I think there are several sets with 20 sec attacks (Energy Melee comes to mind) 

[Haijinx]

Keep in mind, that set has really good bonuses as well

[Haijinx]

Okay I did a little digging and found this post - 

 

 

It looks like the target is Modified Recharge+Activation = 13.5 seconds 

 

So Crushing Uppercut - a 25 second base recharge power with an activation of 2.376 s -

Can slot the entire Critical Strikes set and still have a 90% Proc rate since it would have Modified Recharge+Activation = 14.286 Seconds  

 

From the way it sounds, this looks to be fairly close to the number I was asking about.  Any other ST attack availible to scrappers can't actually slot the whole set and still get the max proc rate.  Since the Proc itself has a 23% Recharge baked in, even single slotting the proc alone into most of the Scrapper Primary's big hitters will mean less than the max chance.  

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

10 hours ago, Uun said:

There are very few powers you can slot the ATOs in that have a recharge longer than 15s. While there are a handful of PBAoEs with 20s recharges, generally these are specialty powers with 90-120s recharges (i.e., Soul Drain, Shield Charge, Ground Zero). You'll end up with an almost 100% proc chance at the expense of diminished up time.

For my purposes, Radiation Therapy (60 second base recharge) and DNA Siphon (90) are great for the proc, or for 3 slotting the set (for 15% accuracy bonus).  Having Radiation Therapy up every 15-20 seconds and essentially an automatic proc activation is spectacular.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Maelwys put a quote about damage mechanics for melee classes into a post about improving the baseline performance of scrappers. A key part of it mentions that the +50% crit strike proc IO activation period begins ticking down when the power into which it is slotted starts animating (in italics and underlined for emphasis).

The quoted timeline for crit strikes proc IO activation (when the power into which it is slotted starts animating) doesn't line up with discussions in this thread. But, it does seem to line up with my own fairly limited experiences testing out how crit strike proc IO activations work in practice. 

In a sense, if crit strikes proc IO activation period begins when the activating power begins to animate then that may re-open discussion about whether or not there's some kind of 0.5 second delay connected to the crit strikes proc IO activation period and in what manner that might apply.

It sure would be nice if there was some definitive answer to the question of how +50% crit strike activation periods work that was backed up with data. If there's an icon that appears when the proc is active and that icon disappears when it deactivates then perhaps that would be one way of measuring it. I'll check that out. 

[Maelwys]

On 2/27/2024 at 2:45 PM, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Maelwys put a quote about damage mechanics for melee classes into a post about improving the baseline performance of scrappers. A key part of it mentions that the +50% crit strike proc IO activation period begins ticking down when the power into which it is slotted starts animating (in italics and underlined for emphasis).

Sorry, that post was a generalisation rather than specifically addressing the exact mechanics of precisely when the Superior Critical Strikes Proc activates.

As I understand it; whenever you trigger any power you have to wait until its Animation Time Before Effect duration expires (likely adjusted for Arcanatime, since AFAIK server clock ticks still apply whenever a parent effect triggers a pseudopet or child effect). At that point anything the power actually does or contains (including Procs) get parsed and (if you're lucky) triggered.

The SCS Proc itself is composed of two parts - the first is the base "boost" which itself has an Animation Time Before Effect duration of 0.5s. The second is the Proc effect which is classified as a Set Bonus and ALSO has an Animation Time Before Effect duration of 0.5s. Conventional Community Wisdom holds that the actual 3.25s buff window kicks in at [Triggering Power's Animation Time Before Effect (potentially rounded up for server ticks) + 0.5 seconds (potentially also rounded up)] but because that second "Proc" effect has its own activation there could be an additional delay happening of a further [0.5 seconds (seriously are we rounding up or not?!?)]
Then you have another questionmark over whether the buff window (once it's actually kicked in!) needs to extend into the initial animation time of an attack, or until that attack's Animation Time Before Effect - although the second seems far more likely.

Unfortunately I don't personally have the free time to do much RL testing on this at the moment due to childminding antics; but I do know that the Gaussian and Decimation Procs function in exactly the same manner as the SCS Proc (they have identical two-part 'Set Bonus' components and 0.5s Animation Time Before Effect durations); and the effects of those Procs are quite straightforward to test and observe due to the guaranteed raw damage boost (as opposed to an "additional chance for a crit", which may or may not result in a crit occurring which may or may not have happened without the buff!) plus a nice big buff icon on your screen...
 

Edited February 28 by Maelwys