Aggressively reduce price of basic enhancements

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, nzer said:

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And neither of those say anything about players being at max effectiveness to have a good player experience.

 

That's irrelevant, because, as I've said multiple times now, this is not about effectiveness. It's about the player experience.

So again, you are covering your eyes and ears singing "lalala I can't hear you" because what I posted does not line up with what you are claiming. You are even citing my comment about player experience to say I am not talking about player experience. So again, you are arguing in bad faith.

[Super Atom]

Oh my god who the hell cares.

 

Just make SO's cheaper, they suck compared to IO sets anyway and nobody with a brain who isn't trying to do a personal challenge uses them at 50. they might as well be TO's in cost and function at this point in the games life-span.

 

"Blah blah balance point duuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrr" shut up

"dUH I HAVE many 50s WhO use SO's only" shut up

[nzer]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

So again, you are covering your eyes and ears singing "lalala I can't hear you" because what I posted does not line up with what you are claiming. You are even citing my comment about player experience to say I am not talking about player experience. So again, you are arguing in bad faith.

 

Rudra, what on earth are you talking about? The problem here is that when the game gives the player enhancement slots to assign to their powers the player expects to be able to use those slots, while the game is (allegedly, according to you) actually designed around the player not using all of those slots.

 

As I already said literally just minutes ago, misalignment between player expectation and design intent is a player experience issue. And both of the links you posted confirm this. So can you please not be aggressively contrarian about everything? It isn't productive for anyone in this thread.

[Pleonast]

11 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And neither of those say anything about players being at max effectiveness to have a good player experience.

We're talking about reducing the price of DOs and SOs. These are not anywhere near max effectiveness. They are the most basic enhancements and go mostly unused. 

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, nzer said:

 

Rudra, what on earth are you talking about? The problem here is that when the game gives the player enhancement slots to assign to their powers the player expects to be able to use those slots, while the game is (allegedly, according to you) actually designed around the player not using all of those slots.

 

As I already said literally just minutes ago, misalignment between player expectation and design intent is a player experience issue. And both of the links you posted confirm this. So can you please not be aggressively contrarian about everything? It isn't productive for anyone in this thread.

And the point that is being made that you refuse to accept is that new players can play without filled enhancement slots and still enjoy playing the game because that is what it was meant to be. A fun game where the enhancements make things easier but isn't necessary until the end. So for the purpose of having fun, a player just needs to slot the minimum, a few accuracies and endurance reductions, the free damage/recharge/damage proc enhancements from START, and they can just have fun with the game until they get to the point where they need full sets at the end game. It is that "I must always be at max effectiveness" mentality that ruins things.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Pleonast said:

We're talking about reducing the price of DOs and SOs. These are not anywhere near max effectiveness. They are the most basic enhancements and go mostly unused. 

And you are also missing the point. No one needs to be fully slotted with SOs or even DOs until they hit the end game. The focus on "my enhancement slots are empty" is a hold over from other games in a game where it does not matter until the end game.

[nzer]

6 minutes ago, Rudra said:

you refuse to accept is that new players can play without filled enhancement slots and still enjoy playing the game because that is what it was meant to be.

 

Clearly not, based on the consistent stream of posts about this. If you're going to continue refusing to acknowledge any kind of criticism of the game at all on the grounds that the original devs could do no wrong and the game is perfect the way it is, we're done talking.

 

We're also apparently going to just ignore that TOs are a thing that existed in the original game and were only removed here on Homecoming. Why exactly are we pretending that not being able to fill your enhancement slots is how the game was meant to be when it is only the case because the cheapest enhancements were removed?

Edited March 5 by nzer
Spelling

[Rudra]

Just now, nzer said:

 

Clearly not, based on the consistent stream of posts about this. If you're going to continue refusing to acknowledge any kind of criticism of the game at all on the ground that the original devs could do no wrong and the game is perfect the way it is, we're done talking.

I am not. The game has a great many issues that the Live devs were working to fix and the current devs are still working on fixing. However, I maintain that the enhancement system is not one of them.

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

And you are also missing the point. No one needs to be fully slotted with SOs or even DOs until they hit the end game. The focus on "my enhancement slots are empty" is a hold over from other games in a game where it does not matter until the end game.

 

This is so wrong it hurt me to read

 

You can absolutely get to 50 without enhancements, but it will suck and be really unfun as this game was designed for you to get enhancements very early on, hence TO/DO existing at all.

[Pleonast]

33 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

I'm not sure what "minimal impact on established players" means, or more at what do you mean by "established players"?

In this thread, by “established player” I mean a player who has at least one max-level character. Once a player has that, they almost always completely skip the “buy enhancements with inf earned from their contacts’ missions” advancement loop by just send inf to each alt as needed. 
 

Decreasing the prices of DOs and SOs has almost no effect on players with level 50s, because those enhancements are vendor trash. 

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Super Atom said:

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And you are also missing the point. No one needs to be fully slotted with SOs or even DOs until they hit the end game. The focus on "my enhancement slots are empty" is a hold over from other games in a game where it does not matter until the end game.

 

This is so wrong it hurt me to read

 

You can absolutely get to 50 without enhancements, but it will suck and be really unfun as this game was designed for you to get enhancements very early on, hence TO/DO existing at all.

I said fully slotted. Yes, playing without any enhancements is a challenge. It is doable and I know players that do so. However, I also understand that to keep the game moving at a decent pace, enhancements are needed. Just not fully slotted characters. See below for the part you are choosing to ignore:

 

7 minutes ago, Rudra said:

a player just needs to slot the minimum, a few accuracies and endurance reductions, the free damage/recharge/damage proc enhancements from START,

 

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

I said fully slotted. Yes, playing without any enhancements is a challenge. It is doable and I know players that do so. However, I also understand that to keep the game moving at a decent pace, enhancements are needed. Just not fully slotted characters. See below for the part you are choosing to ignore:

 

 

 

I'm ignoring it because it's not only a bad opinion, it's terrible advice for a new player that i hope you don't give. There is a reason the game pushes you twords TO's right away, enhancements are extremely important for gameplay.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Super Atom said:

 

I'm ignoring it because it's not only a bad opinion, it's terrible advice for a new player that i hope you don't give. There is a reason the game pushes you twords TO's right away, enhancements are extremely important for gameplay.

The game does not push anyone to TOs because they basically no longer exist. You can't get them any more that I am aware of.

[Lockely]

10 minutes ago, Pleonast said:

In this thread, by “established player” I mean a player who has at least one max-level character. Once a player has that, they almost always completely skip the “buy enhancements with inf earned from their contacts’ missions” advancement loop by just send inf to each alt as needed. 
 

Decreasing the prices of DOs and SOs has almost no effect on players with level 50s, because those enhancements are vendor trash. 

 

Absolute truth. My first 50 took me, and I am not joking, 4+ years because I kept burning out trying to level the OG way of contacts and missions, and kept getting frustrated not being able to hit a damned thing, or running out of END after three shots but not having the Inf to keep my DOs up to date.

 

My second 50 took less than 2 weeks, and is almost fully slotted out with IO sets.

 

My third and fourth 50s will be done within a week of creation, and I'm already working on their IO sets.

The initial character, i.e. the one New Players are going to deal with, is the struggle bus. No one denies it. Once you get to 50 you have an infinite money fountain to supp from with daily MSRs and Hamis. From there it's smooth sailing, but up to that point it's unleavened frustration and I would have lost *several* friends I've brought in if I didn't throw a few million Inf their way to carry them through to max on their first characters.

Edited March 5 by Lockely

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

The game does not push anyone to TOs because they basically no longer exist. You can't get them any more that I am aware of.

 

The tutorials of this game still push you at enhancements right away. TO/DO/SO  is irrelevant.

 

and you know this, but chose to be a literalist anyway.

Edited March 5 by Super Atom

[Sunsette]

7 minutes ago, Lockely said:

 

Absolute truth. My first 50 took me, and I am not joking, 4+ years because I kept burning out trying to level the OG way of contacts and missions, and kept getting frustrated not being able to hit a damned thing, or running out of END after three shots but not having the Inf to keep my DOs up to date.

My second 50 took 2 weeks, and is almost fully slotted out with IO sets.

My third and fourth 50s will be done within a week of creation, and I'm already working on their IO sets.

The initial character, i.e. the one New Players are going to deal with, is the struggle bus. No one denies it. Once you get to 50 you have an infinite money fountain to supp from with daily MSRs and Hamis. From there it's smooth sailing, but up to that point it's unleavened frustration and I would have lost *several* friends I've brought in if I didn't throw a few million Inf their way to carry them through to max on their first characters.

 

You are not alone; this matches the reality of a lot of players I've met in this game who don't frequent the forums or talk in general/endgame chats regularly. Except that most of them end up quitting if they aren't helped by someone the way you help your friends well before the four year point.

 

I cannot stress these enough: a lot of players don't like interacting with auction houses, finding the auction house is hard as a low-info player, and CoH's consignment house is extra confusing, the inventory system is confusing, the salvage system is confusing. Using the price of SOs as a way to onramp new people onto the consignment house is remarkably backwards, imo. 

 

And we haven't even gotten into how confusing and poorly explained enhancements are.

Edited March 5 by Sunsette

[Super Atom]

Also because im petty

 

7 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The game does not push anyone to TOs because they basically no longer exist. You can't get them any more that I am aware of.

 

 

[Rudra]

Just now, Super Atom said:

 

The tutorials of this game still push you at enhancements right away. TO/DO/SO  is irrelevant.

 

and you know this, but chose to be a literalist anyway.

The tutorials give you 2 level 1 enhancements to teach you how the enhancement system works. They are tutorials, teaching players how the various parts of the game work is their purpose. And if you don't slot those enhancements, you will notice no difference in the tutorial run through compared to when you do slot them. (I've run the same character builds through the tutorials both slotting and not slotting the enhancements. I never noticed a difference between the characters.) Enhancements and enhancement slots are a fundamental part of the game, yes. Use of enhancements is necessary to keep the game progressing at a comfortable or enjoyable pace as you level, yes. There is no argument on that. Fully slotting your characters is the part we disagree on. It is absolutely not necessary. Just a few key enhancements in your powers will let the game keep progressing without slogging down. The use of generic IOs starting at level 7, because you can start slotting them at level 7 since they have a minimum enhancement level of 10, will alleviate the dependence on getting new enhancements every 7 levels. Slotting the START free enhancements provides the character with 4 enhancements that they will never outlevel starting at level 1 if they skip the tutorial. And using just a few key enhancements keeps the character at fighting trim.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Super Atom said:

Also because im petty

 

 

 

Then the devs need to be reminded that statement is there and needs to be updated.

[Super Atom]

Just now, Rudra said:

The tutorials give you 2 level 1 enhancements to teach you how the enhancement system works. They are tutorials, teaching players how the various parts of the game work is their purpose. And if you don't slot those enhancements, you will notice no difference in the tutorial run through compared to when you do slot them. (I've run the same character builds through the tutorials both slotting and not slotting the enhancements. I never noticed a difference between the characters.) Enhancements and enhancement slots are a fundamental part of the game, yes. Use of enhancements is necessary to keep the game progressing at a comfortable or enjoyable pace as you level, yes. There is no argument on that. Fully slotting your characters is the part we disagree on. It is absolutely not necessary. Just a few key enhancements in your powers will let the game keep progressing without slogging down. The use of generic IOs starting at level 7, because you can start slotting them at level 7 since they have a minimum enhancement level of 10, will alleviate the dependence on getting new enhancements every 7 levels. Slotting the START free enhancements provides the character with 4 enhancements that they will never outlevel starting at level 1 if they skip the tutorial. And using just a few key enhancements keeps the character at fighting trim.

 

Your personal experience in how you play now as a veteran of the game is absolutely useless in the discussion of a new player.

 

Enhancements are so important, they give you a bunch of them for free with procs to make you enjoy the game more, alongside free travel powers and attacks. How this game is played and designed disagrees with everything you say at every corner.

 

 

[Pleonast]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

It is absolutely not necessary.

Agreed it’s not necessary. But it is a common friction point for new players coming into the game. One that the devs should eliminate to ease new players into the game.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

Your personal experience in how you play now as a veteran of the game is absolutely useless in the discussion of a new player.

 

Enhancements are so important, they give you a bunch of them for free with procs to make you enjoy the game more, alongside free travel powers and attacks. How this game is played and designed disagrees with everything you say at every corner.

 

 

I'm running the risk of getting another warning with the length of this debate. So I'm just going to leave it at:

 

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Just a few key enhancements in your powers will let the game keep progressing without slogging down. The use of generic IOs starting at level 7, because you can start slotting them at level 7 since they have a minimum enhancement level of 10, will alleviate the dependence on getting new enhancements every 7 levels. Slotting the START free enhancements provides the character with 4 enhancements that they will never outlevel starting at level 1 if they skip the tutorial. And using just a few key enhancements keeps the character at fighting trim.

 

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, Pleonast said:

Agreed it’s not necessary. But it is a common friction point for new players coming into the game. One that the devs should eliminate to ease new players into the game.

The only fix I would personally consider is bringing back TOs. (Which I was against removing....) The TOs could even be set to never expire. Sort of a pre-generic IO enhancement. However, that would be limited to an 8% improvement because that is the benefit TOs gave at full value and I believe that is why they were removed.

[Super Atom]

I'm sure in your out of touch mind you actually think new players have an understanding of how to play the game enough to "just get by" with the minimum, but in my experience in talking to new players and introducing people to the game, they really don't.

 

A lot of people don't think about little things like knowing what every enemy can and will do in a fight and how much of an advantage that is for us long time players. Knowing your limits from level 1 and up, knowing exactly what enhancements you should be putting even if you don't full slot will make a world of difference.

 

Opening up SO's to be more affordable to new players gives people the chance to experiment with how they're boosting their powers and learn what is and isn't helping and will probably lead to a better understanding of the enhancement system overall as well. TO's don't boost much so that won't do and DO's are alright but same problem. SO's make a real steady noticeable boost and difference needed for that kind of self-learning.

 

For those reasons alone, I support OP in making the current under-used often ignored SO's cheaper.

[nzer]

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I'm running the risk of getting another warning with the length of this debate. So I'm just going to leave it at:

 

Getting multiple warnings over this kind of thing when the issue being brought up is so completely uncontroversial, especially when it was ostensibly caused by a change you yourself disagreed with, should probably be cause for some amount of self-reflection. If it was me, at least.