Change the default stance for Mastermind pets from "Follow" to "Stay"

[gabrilend]

Currently, if a Mastermind summons a pet, it spawns in where they targeted and then immediately runs directly at the Mastermind. I believe this defeats the purpose of having a targeting reticle, if they're going to ignore their placement and wander straight to their master. Potentially bringing enemies with them!

 

A big part of the fantasy of a Mastermind is the ability to direct specific pets toward specific goals. I believe that if their default behavior was changed to "stay" instead of "follow", not only would it encourage new Masterminds to learn how to use the commands ("why aren't my pets following me") but also it would allow you to summon a pet at a specific location so they could defeat a specific foe.

 

I also believe that a buff to the range of the summon powers would help as well, as it would allow you to stay safe, far away from combat, while still engaging your foes. This would increase the distance that Masterminds could play from, moving their playstyle to a more strategic level. However, with greater distance brings greater vulnerability, as your minions will have a greater distance to travel should you need assistance...

 

Originally, Masterminds were oriented around having more "permanent" pets that you were rewarded for keeping alive. Currently on Homecoming, the opposite is true - your pets are designed to be a resource to expend to accomplish an objective. I like the second design better. I believe the second design could be more easily realized with these two suggested buffs:

 

Change the default stance for Mastermind pets from "Follow" to "Stay"
and
Increase the range of the summon spells for Mastermind pets

 

because it would allow the Mastermind to operate at a greater distance and with more control over the actions of their pets.

[gabrilend]

In addition, currently a Mastermind pet on the "Follow" stance will move into melee range and attack enemies if summoned in combat. However, if you're trying to replace fallen warriors, you'd often prefer if they stick around after summoning them so that you could upgrade them. Currently they scatter as soon as summoned, which is not the behavior that would allow for upgrades, as they'll often leave the AoE of the upgrade spell.

 

Though this might be more to do with the "aggressive/defensive/passive" stance, I'm not sure. I don't believe it's necessarily a good idea to spawn them in with "passive" as their default stance, so you'd have to do some testing to identify what feels right.

[Rudra]

MM pets are default Follow so they stay with the MM. If you want to summon pets and have them be at enemies, summon them and use the Go To command. They will go to where you send them unless you move too far away. (Edit: A tactic I use if I want my pets fighting away from me is to set them to Aggressive and then use the Go To command to send them into the spawn(s) I want them to distract or fight. They run to their designated spots and fight there without running back to me, so I can run past or weaken an enemy position if needed while retaining an easy escape vector.) Summoned MM pets in combat immediately move to attack enemies not because they are summoned in default Follow, but because they are summoned in default Defensive and either the MM or at least one of the MM pets is taking damage.

Edited March 7 by Rudra

[gabrilend]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

MM pets are default Follow so they stay with the MM. If you want to summon pets and have them be at enemies, summon them and use the Go To command. They will go to where you send them unless you move too far away. (Edit: A tactic I use if I want my pets fighting away from me is to set them to Aggressive and then use the Go To command to send them into the spawn(s) I want them to distract or fight.)

 

Yes, that's often what needs to happen. However there's a couple extra key-presses that feel... unnecessary. Why are they summonable at range, if not to direct them toward putting out a certain fire? And yes, you can summon them at your location and then use go-to, but that adds extra friction that feels unwieldy. They should be smart enough to know that they're needed *where* I call them, not just when.

 

Quote

Summoned MM pets in combat immediately move to attack enemies not because they are summoned in default Follow, but because they are summoned in default Defensive and either the MM or at least one of the MM pets is taking damage.

 

That makes sense to me.

[biostem]

If you use a bind to summon your pets where you click, and it includes a behavior command, will it work?  I'm not at my gaming computer to test ATM...

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, gabrilend said:

Yes, that's often what needs to happen. However there's a couple extra key-presses that feel... unnecessary. Why are they summonable at range, if not to direct them toward putting out a certain fire? And yes, you can summon them at your location and then use go-to, but that adds extra friction that feels unwieldy. They should be smart enough to know that they're needed *where* I call them, not just when.

Almost all my MM characters have 6 macros. Aggressive, Defensive, Passive, Follow, Stay, Dismiss. (Edit: Each macro applies only a single pet command, as labeled.) With those 6 macros, I can summon pets at a distance from me and then immediately follow with the Stay macro and have them stay there. @biostem's bind summon would probably work better. As would pet command binds for Aggressive, Defensive, Passive, Follow, and Stay.

 

I would be fine if an option to change MM default pet states were made available. However, I am very much opposed to changing MM default pet behavior to Stay. If you want an option that better suits how you use your pets? Fine. Just don't seek to impose it on me or anyone else.

 

Edit: 7 macros. I also have an Attack macro.

Edited March 7 by Rudra

[gabrilend]

36 minutes ago, biostem said:

If you use a bind to summon your pets where you click, and it includes a behavior command, will it work?  I'm not at my gaming computer to test ATM...

 

Unfortunately I'm pretty sure the macro system is insufficient for these purposes. When you use such a macro, all your existing pets will receive the "stay" command, while the newly summoned ones will ignore it. And if you swap the order such that you summon your pets and then tell them to stay, it won't apply to the new pets either because the "stay" command will be issued while they're "in transit" or rather "in the process of being summoned"

 

end result is that macros don't seem to work. At least I can't figure out how to make it work : (

 

 

29 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Almost all my MM characters have 6 macros. Aggressive, Defensive, Passive, Follow, Stay, Dismiss. (Edit: Each macro applies only a single pet command, as labeled.) With those 6 macros, I can summon pets at a distance from me and then immediately follow with the Stay macro and have them stay there. @biostem's bind summon would probably work better. As would pet command binds for Aggressive, Defensive, Passive, Follow, and Stay.

 

I believe I've pushed the macro system as far as I can, unfortunately. The functionality I suggested seems to be impossible to implement with the API we're given.

 

Quote

I would be fine if an option to change MM default pet states were made available. However, I am very much opposed to changing MM default pet behavior to Stay. If you want an option that better suits how you use your pets? Fine. Just don't seek to impose it on me or anyone else.

 

I wonder, then, how you feel about the recent Mastermind rework? Where they changed the functionality of the summon spells, among other things?

 

I would personally much prefer the option you suggest, to change the default behavior ourselves. Most customization in the most customizable game ever! I'd love that. But, I figured this option would be easier, and easier means more likely to be implemented. But your idea absolutely would fulfill my requirements as well : )

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

Unfortunately I'm pretty sure the macro system is insufficient for these purposes. When you use such a macro, all your existing pets will receive the "stay" command, while the newly summoned ones will ignore it. And if you swap the order such that you summon your pets and then tell them to stay, it won't apply to the new pets either because the "stay" command will be issued while they're "in transit" or rather "in the process of being summoned"

 

end result is that macros don't seem to work. At least I can't figure out how to make it work : (

Hmm... I checked the list of slash commands and could only find ones that addressed all pets, all pets summoned with a specific power, or only pets with specific names.  None apply to ones you just summoned.  Still, you could either go by the power you are specifically using or name each minion and address them accordingly.  Not perfect, but it's something...

[Rudra]

12 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

Unfortunately I'm pretty sure the macro system is insufficient for these purposes. When you use such a macro, all your existing pets will receive the "stay" command, while the newly summoned ones will ignore it. And if you swap the order such that you summon your pets and then tell them to stay, it won't apply to the new pets either because the "stay" command will be issued while they're "in transit" or rather "in the process of being summoned"

 

end result is that macros don't seem to work. At least I can't figure out how to make it work : (

 

Uhm... what? If using macros isn't your cup of tea, that's fine. However, your reasoning here fails. If you have a Stay macro set up to command your pets to stay, then all pets you currently have update to that command even if they are already affected by the command. It doesn't matter if they've always been there or you just summoned them. Now if you hit your Stay macro before all your pets are listed on your pet window? Then yes, the ones that weren't spawned yet will ignore it because they didn't exist at the time you gave the command. As long as your pets show up in the pet window, they are subject to your commands. (You can also set specific pets to stay, go, follow, whatever in the pet window as long as you have it set to Advanced Mode.)

 

12 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

Quote

I would be fine if an option to change MM default pet states were made available. However, I am very much opposed to changing MM default pet behavior to Stay. If you want an option that better suits how you use your pets? Fine. Just don't seek to impose it on me or anyone else.

 

I wonder, then, how you feel about the recent Mastermind rework? Where they changed the functionality of the summon spells, among other things?

The only changes to MMs that I am aware of is that some pets had their defense or damage resist moved to their 1st upgrade power so players can buff their defense or damage resist. And when it works, I'm fine with it. When it doesn't work, I'm not fine with it. What changes are you talking about? (Edit: Or are you talking about the changes made to the MM's native attacks with their own weapons? They didn't change how I use them, so it doesn't bother me. Changing how pets function when summoned though? That will change how I use them by requiring me to add steps to summoning them.)

Edited March 7 by Rudra

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

if you hit your Stay macro before all your pets are listed on your pet window? Then yes, the ones that weren't spawned yet will ignore it

I think part of the issue is that while pets may be visible and going through their summon animation, they technically "don't exist" insofar as they cannot be attacked nor be issued commands, but from the player's point of view, they are there.  I know I've had my moments of frustration when I'm thinking "Could you get off your motorcycle already and attack, please!".

[Rudra]

11 minutes ago, biostem said:

I think part of the issue is that while pets may be visible and going through their summon animation, they technically "don't exist" insofar as they cannot be attacked nor be issued commands, but from the player's point of view, they are there.  I know I've had my moments of frustration when I'm thinking "Could you get off your motorcycle already and attack, please!".

That's why I watch the pet window. If they are in the pet window, they are valid and can be affected. If they aren't, they aren't valid and can't be affected even if you're looking right at them.

[gabrilend]

9 minutes ago, biostem said:

Hmm... I checked the list of slash commands and could only find ones that addressed all pets, all pets summoned with a specific power, or only pets with specific names.  None apply to ones you just summoned.  Still, you could either go by the power you are specifically using or name each minion and address them accordingly.  Not perfect, but it's something...

 

Well, when you summon a pet, you use a power. That power would work as the argument supplied to the /petcom_pow command. So... yes, you can apply commands to the pets you just summoned - just use the same type of pet as the summoning spell you just used.

 

For example, as a Ninja mastermind I might use "Call Genin" to summon ninja pets. Then, when I use the petcom_pow command I'd say something like /petcom_pow genin stay

 

18 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Uhm... what? If using macros isn't your cup of tea, that's fine. However, your reasoning here fails. If you have a Stay macro set up to command your pets to stay, then all pets you currently have update to that command even if they are already affected by the command. It doesn't matter if they've always been there or you just summoned them. Now if you hit your Stay macro before all your pets are listed on your pet window? Then yes, the ones that weren't spawned yet will ignore it because they didn't exist at the time you gave the command. As long as your pets show up in the pet window, they are subject to your commands. (You can also set specific pets to stay, go, follow, whatever in the pet window as long as you have it set to Advanced Mode.)

 

I love macros, but I've tried to accomplish the behavior I suggested and it doesn't seem to be possible. Primarily for the reason you provide: "Now if you hit your Stay macro before all your pets are listed in the pet window? Then yes, the ones that weren't spawned yet will ignore it because they didn't exist at the time you gave the command." <----- this fact prevents the suggestion I made from working using a macro. Sad but true...

 

(please correct me if I'm wrong I'd love to be wrong)

 

Quote

The only changes to MMs that I am aware of is that some pets had their defense or damage resist moved to their 1st upgrade power so players can buff their defense or damage resist. And when it works, I'm fine with it. When it doesn't work, I'm not fine with it. What changes are you talking about?

 

these changes: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/28070-patch-notes-for-april-20th-2021-issue-27-page-2/

 

 

This is one of the single biggest changes to the class I've ever seen. It completely revamped Mastermind gameplay.

 

The fact that they said they were investigating further improvements means they're open to suggestions. And I'd love it if my idea was considered ❤️

 

[biostem]

1 minute ago, gabrilend said:

Then, when I use the petcom_pow command I'd say something like /petcom_pow genin stay

Oh no doubt.  I am thinking, given what's already been discussed, that the pets don't yet "exist" when you activate the power, so there's nothing to apply the command to, thereby making the behavior command apply to nothing...

[Rudra]

15 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

 

This is one of the single biggest changes to the class I've ever seen. It completely revamped Mastermind gameplay.

I never even noticed and they don't affect me. My MMs already had sufficient recharge on pet summons that there was insufficient delay between my ability to summon the pets and then summon replacements. The longest I had to wait since HC was available was maybe 10 seconds. And I build all my characters to manage END. So even if I had to summon all my pets and then apply both pet upgrades, I could still spam heals. Though I usually had to hold off on my own attacks until my END got back up to a safe level. So really? These changes did not affect my game play at all. Changing how my pets work when I summon them? That will affect my game play because then I would have to further delay my heals, debuffs, buffs, and attacks to get my pets back to where they do what I need them to.

 

12 minutes ago, biostem said:

15 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

Then, when I use the petcom_pow command I'd say something like /petcom_pow genin stay

Oh no doubt.  I am thinking, given what's already been discussed, that the pets don't yet "exist" when you activate the power, so there's nothing to apply the command to, thereby making the behavior command apply to nothing...

The thing to remember about MM pets, or any pets really, is how long it takes for them to spawn. That is the primary concern for anything with them. And the pet window is an excellent tool for tracking that. Summoning animations can go over long, the thug and his motorcycle for instance. In those cases, you should be seeing that pet in the pet window even before the pet has finished his summoning animation. In this case, the pet is still subject to being affected, such as by applying an upgrade to another pet and having it apply to the motorcycle rider thug. Any commands given after the pet shows up in the window but while the pet is still animating will appear to be ignored. Because the pet has to finish the summoning animation. However, unless the game bugs, after the summoning animation is done, the pet follows the given command. You can see it if you choose to use an Aggressive pet state macro. The pet does nothing while getting off the bike, but his status shows aggressive and he immediately attacks the nearest target within his aggro radius after the animation. Now when he rides up and you can see him but he still isn't showing in the pet window? It doesn't matter what you try to do with him because he still doesn't actually exist as your pet yet. (Edit: It should be noted however, that just because a pet is not yet listed in your pet window preventing you from affecting said pet, that does not protect the pet. The model is already there and can be attacked by mobs, just not affected by you. Like when a Freakshow rezzes and you can't target him until he finishes his animation but your pets can if set on Aggressive.)

Edited March 7 by Rudra

[gabrilend]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

Oh no doubt.  I am thinking, given what's already been discussed, that the pets don't yet "exist" when you activate the power, so there's nothing to apply the command to, thereby making the behavior command apply to nothing...

 

could make the summon spell apply a buff on the summoner that expires precisely a certain amount of seconds after cast. When the effect takes action it would send the specified command to the pet in question.

 

(the duration would be equal to the length of the animation that plays when they spawn in)

 

 

Quote

These changes did not affect my game play at all. Changing how my pets work when I summon them? That will affect my game play because then I would have to further delay my heals, debuffs, buffs, and attacks to get my pets back to where they do what I need them to.

 

Can you explain what kinds of functionality you'd be missing should this be implemented as originally suggested? I mean, when you summon units you want them on follow, yes? Well, if you summon them nearby as long as you don't fly off or something the effect should be similar. What's the use-case for preserving the current style?

 

Quote

The model is already there and can be attacked by mobs, just not affected by you. Like when a Freakshow rezzes and you can't target him until he finishes his animation but your pets can if set on Aggressive.)

 

Hmmmm, I wonder if they could make an invisible "dummy" unit that would absorb the buff and apply it to the summoned unit after a short duration. That way you could upgrade as soon as possible after summoning your units and it'd still go through.

[gabrilend]

I made a video about how I play Mastermind characters, if you want to watch. I didn't rehearse or anything but it's still sort of a performance - like improv, if you will. I got into the groove about halfway through I think, but I'll leave that up to you to judge.

 

Warning, it's kinda scary

 

 

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, gabrilend said:

Can you explain what kinds of functionality you'd be missing should this be implemented as originally suggested? I mean, when you summon units you want them on follow, yes? Well, if you summon them nearby as long as you don't fly off or something the effect should be similar. What's the use-case for preserving the current style?

Like I said, if you want the devs to add an option that lets you configure the default state for your pets, I'm fine with it. If you keep insisting that everyone has to have their pets default to stay, then I most definitely oppose your suggestion. Just because you would like to run your MMs differently does not mean you get to impose that on other players. What is the use case for preserving the current style? When I summon my pets, I can do so on the move and not have to spend extra effort setting them to follow. If you get them changed to default stay, then you are adding extra steps to my play style in the name of your play style. So, option for setting pet default state to stay? Good. You get what you want without imposing it on others. Changing the default state for everyone to stay? Bad. You do not get to dictate how other players approach their MMs.

 

(Edit: For that matter, can you imagine how this would affect someone new to MMs? They summon their pet, run off into combat, die, and wonder why their pet didn't move down the hall to help them fight. The expectation would be that if a pet is summoned, it will follow and support. So adding an option so that you and anyone else that wants their pets to stay put when summoned can configure them to do so is fine. Whereas requiring everyone to adapt to your preferred approach is not.)
 

1 hour ago, gabrilend said:

Hmmmm, I wonder if they could make an invisible "dummy" unit that would absorb the buff and apply it to the summoned unit after a short duration.

To the best of my knowledge, that would not work. At least not with this game engine. And you can upgrade your pets as soon as they show in the pet window. You don't even have to have them targeted. I've upgraded replacement pets by applying their upgrade powers to my Dark Servant. I've upgraded replacement pets by applying their upgrade to Manticore, Ms. Liberty, or any other combat NPC I have to escort.

 

Edited March 7 by Rudra
Edited to correct "man" to "mean".

[TheZag]

Time to bust out the number pad key binds.  0 loads commands for all pets.  1 2 and 3 load commands for individual tier pets.  4 5 6 is agressive, defensive, passive.  7 8 9 is attack target, follow, stay.  Just hit the number for what henchmen you want to control and then the button(s) for the command.  Now you can command your henchmen like a boss... err,  mastermind.

 

[gabrilend]

12 hours ago, Rudra said:

Like I said, if you want the devs to add an option that lets you configure the default state for your pets, I'm fine with it. If you keep insisting that everyone has to have their pets default to stay, then I most definitely oppose your suggestion. Just because you would like to run your MMs differently does not mean you get to impose that on other players.

 

 

It seems that you feel quite strongly about this issue. I'd like to understand why, so I can come up with ideas for how to solve my issue without disrespecting your needs. Can you please tell me what use-cases you have for the current behavior? By that I mean specific situations where defaulting to "follow" is more useful than "stay".

 

Quote

What is the use case for preserving the current style? When I summon my pets, I can do so on the move and not have to spend extra effort setting them to follow. If you get them changed to default stay, then you are adding extra steps to my play style in the name of your play style. So, option for setting pet default state to stay? Good. You get what you want without imposing it on others. Changing the default state for everyone to stay? Bad. You do not get to dictate how other players approach their MMs.

 

that's not a use-case, that's a description of the functionality. But like I said before, your needs are valid and right now it feels like one of your needs is that the way you interface with the game remains stable. I can understand that, I respect it, and honestly this is one of the best places for a person with needs such as yours.

 

I have an idea that might satisfy both of us, if you'd care to listen.

 

Assuming that it's possible to change the default state of the summoned Mastermind pets, perhaps it would be possible to add 6 different summon powers - one each with a combination of default orders and stances.

 

3 for stances, aggressive defensive and passive,

2 for the different possible orders -> follow, and stay.

 

This gives a total of 6 possibilities which could be given to a vendor (like the temporary powers!) or something and the user could decide if they wanted to utilize the new functionality.

 

These are the 6 enumerated:

 

aggressive follow

aggressive stay

defensive follow

defensive stay

passive follow

passive stay

 

It doesn't make sense to use the other orders. "goto" is the same as "stay" when first summoned, and "attack my target" would turn them into just another cooldown to press. Not ideal.

 

How do you feel about this addition to the game? Nothing would change, so your behavior can remain unaltered, but new possibilities for playstyles will be opened up for other players who desire a bit more flexibility.

 

Quote

(Edit: For that matter, can you imagine how this would affect someone new to MMs? They summon their pet, run off into combat, die, and wonder why their pet didn't move down the hall to help them fight. The expectation would be that if a pet is summoned, it will follow and support.

 

I definitely did imagine the possibility that a new player might play the game, and in fact I show this game to everyone who will listen. I believe that the proposed functionality would be beneficial to them because it would allow them to play Mastermind more like a strategy game, which is the background that most of the players I bring have.

 

"It's an MMO, but you play it like a tactics game" is the pitch I use, because everyone who's into superheroes are either into the commercial ones or they don't play video games, I find. Either that, or they've already played CoH.

 

I also sometimes pitch it as "a game where you can beat up superheroes and nazis" and that goes over surprisingly well with some people

 

My proposed functionality would make the Mastermind class feel more distinct from the others because it would reduce the friction between assigning units to roles. I believe that the suggestion I've posed in this post here to be an excellent middleground between the issues raised and the desired functionality.

 

11 hours ago, TheZag said:

Time to bust out the number pad key binds.  0 loads commands for all pets.  1 2 and 3 load commands for individual tier pets.  4 5 6 is agressive, defensive, passive.  7 8 9 is attack target, follow, stay.  Just hit the number for what henchmen you want to control and then the button(s) for the command.  Now you can command your henchmen like a boss... err,  mastermind.

 

 

Unfortunately, I don't have a numberpad on my reduced-size keyboard. Alas! But fear not, for I've definitely made extensive use of the bind and macro system, and I appreciate it's flexibility. I do believe there are improvements that could be made specifically for Masterminds, such as the ability to direct our pets in the same way that /powexec_location works where you can define an angle and a distance and execute your powers in customized ways. But I don't know enough about the back-end architecture of the project to be able to say whether or not that type of thing would be implementable.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

Assuming that it's possible to change the default state of the summoned Mastermind pets, perhaps it would be possible to add 6 different summon powers - one each with a combination of default orders and stances.

 

3 for stances, aggressive defensive and passive,

2 for the different possible orders -> follow, and stay.

 

This gives a total of 6 possibilities which could be given to a vendor (like the temporary powers!) or something and the user could decide if they wanted to utilize the new functionality.

 

These are the 6 enumerated:

 

aggressive follow

aggressive stay

defensive follow

defensive stay

passive follow

passive stay

 

It doesn't make sense to use the other orders. "goto" is the same as "stay" when first summoned, and "attack my target" would turn them into just another cooldown to press. Not ideal.

That would require a lot more work than just adding an option that lets players select their pets' default state. The option is both easier and doesn't step on any players' current play style.

 

3 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

It seems that you feel quite strongly about this issue. I'd like to understand why, so I can come up with ideas for how to solve my issue without disrespecting your needs. Can you please tell me what use-cases you have for the current behavior? By that I mean specific situations where defaulting to "follow" is more useful than "stay".

What I feel strongly about is your insistence that everyone have the Stay command be their MM pets' default state instead of a selectable option. What I feel strongly about is that you insist others adapt to how you want to play. That is what I feel strongly about.

 

4 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

Quote

What is the use case for preserving the current style? When I summon my pets, I can do so on the move and not have to spend extra effort setting them to follow. If you get them changed to default stay, then you are adding extra steps to my play style in the name of your play style. So, option for setting pet default state to stay? Good. You get what you want without imposing it on others. Changing the default state for everyone to stay? Bad. You do not get to dictate how other players approach their MMs.

 

that's not a use-case, that's a description of the functionality. But like I said before, your needs are valid and right now it feels like one of your needs is that the way you interface with the game remains stable. I can understand that, I respect it, and honestly this is one of the best places for a person with needs such as yours.

This very much is a use case. If I am on a team and if I want to stay with the team so my buffs stay on them and I can heal them when they get hurt, I need to be able to move with the team. So if I need replacement pets, I summon them as I go and let them catch up to me. They can be upgraded during the next fight. If they are changed to Stay instead of Follow, then not only do I have to summon my replacement pets, now I also have to command them to get moving and follow me. Something I do not currently have to do. That is very much a use case.

 

Or how is one? I'm running from a fight that has overwhelmed me. Without my pets, my MM is very squishy. So I'm running away and pausing long enough to trigger one of my summon powers so I have pets to shield my health. Something they won't do in Stay. Because they are almost immediately out of my Supremacy range as I flee the enemies. Worse? They could have survived if they had stayed following me. Now instead odds are they get wiped out because they are just standing there.

 

There are a variety of times and reasons why a MM player may want to summon on the move. And when you do, you want those pets following you. Even if only to shield your health.

 

7 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

Quote

(Edit: For that matter, can you imagine how this would affect someone new to MMs? They summon their pet, run off into combat, die, and wonder why their pet didn't move down the hall to help them fight. The expectation would be that if a pet is summoned, it will follow and support.

 

I definitely did imagine the possibility that a new player might play the game, and in fact I show this game to everyone who will listen. I believe that the proposed functionality would be beneficial to them because it would allow them to play Mastermind more like a strategy game, which is the background that most of the players I bring have.

And if the player is not someone that you introduced to the game and decides to play a MM? Why should they expect their pet(s) to not automatically follow them when with every other AT their pets automatically follow them and in every other game with player summoned pets they also automatically follow the player character?

 

Look, this is going to sound angry and/or mean, but I'm thinking it is necessary at this point. If your response is going to insist that all MM pets default to Stay rather than Follow, then my response is going to change from that is a good option to let players set, to learn how to control your pets. Does that sound like a nice thing for me to say to you? Oh, you just need to learn how to correctly control your pets and they will do exactly what you want them. Sounds nice, right? No? Well, your insistence that MM pets all get set to a default Stay command instead of a default Follow command instead of just asking for an option for the player to set their preferred MM pet summon state is basically the same thing, just reversed.

[gabrilend]

39 minutes ago, Rudra said:

That would require a lot more work than just adding an option that lets players select their pets' default state. The option is both easier and doesn't step on any players' current play style.

 

I'm assuming based on this response that you know more than me about the back-end architecture of the game. If so, then the option you suggest (if feasible) would absolutely fulfill the requirements of the suggestion I posed, and in fact would be better than mine because it grants more flexibility to the players and has more clarity than the option I suggested with the power vendor.

 

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What I feel strongly about is your insistence that everyone have the Stay command be their MM pets' default state instead of a selectable option. What I feel strongly about is that you insist others adapt to how you want to play. That is what I feel strongly about.

 

I'm not sure why you believe I'm insistent on that. I believe I've expressed my flexibility clearly, and I've stated more than once that your suggestion would meet my desired functionality as well. It feels like you're feeling strongly about someone who speaks like me, but isn't me, because I'm absolutely not pitting myself against you. I think we're both on the same side and we can work together to bring more options to the players of this wonderful game, if we make our arguments clearly and state our desired outcomes plainly.

 

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This very much is a use case. If I am on a team and if I want to stay with the team so my buffs stay on them and I can heal them when they get hurt, I need to be able to move with the team. So if I need replacement pets, I summon them as I go and let them catch up to me. They can be upgraded during the next fight. If they are changed to Stay instead of Follow, then not only do I have to summon my replacement pets, now I also have to command them to get moving and follow me. Something I do not currently have to do. That is very much a use case.

 

You're right, now that you've explained a bit more that definitely qualifies as a use-case. Thanks for providing the details about following your team and keeping your buffs on them, those were the important parts that were missing from your earlier explanation.

 

I believe that either of our proposed solutions would work to fulfill this requirement:

 

yours, being that a menu option or UI element would allow us to set the default state of MM pets when summoned, and

mine, being that multiple powers could be available on a vendor and a user could pick which to utilize.

 

The end result is that the player can define the functionality of their pets as described initially, when I suggested that MM pets have a way to stay where they're summoned. We're on the same side.

 

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Or how is one? I'm running from a fight that has overwhelmed me. Without my pets, my MM is very squishy. So I'm running away and pausing long enough to trigger one of my summon powers so I have pets to shield my health. Something they won't do in Stay. Because they are almost immediately out of my Supremacy range as I flee the enemies. Worse? They could have survived if they had stayed following me. Now instead odds are they get wiped out because they are just standing there.

 

That also qualifies as a use-case. The auto-follow functionality allows for the Supremacy buff to be used as a defensive power when the offensive capabilities of your pets are insufficient to address the foes that are attacking you.

 

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There are a variety of times and reasons why a MM player may want to summon on the move. And when you do, you want those pets following you. Even if only to shield your health.

 

I see your point. I use teleportation, so this use-case did not occur to me because of how "staccatic" [staccato] my movement powers are.

 

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And if the player is not someone that you introduced to the game and decides to play a MM? Why should they expect their pet(s) to not automatically follow them when with every other AT their pets automatically follow them and in every other game with player summoned pets they also automatically follow the player character?

 

Someone who just started the game wouldn't know about the functionality of other archetypes and their pets, and one of the selling points of the game is that it's *not* like other games, so... I respectfully disagree with this opinion.

 

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Look, this is going to sound angry and/or mean, but I'm thinking it is necessary at this point. If your response is going to insist that all MM pets default to Stay rather than Follow, then my response is going to change from that is a good option to let players set, to learn how to control your pets. Does that sound like a nice thing for me to say to you? Oh, you just need to learn how to correctly control your pets and they will do exactly what you want them. Sounds nice, right? No? Well, your insistence that MM pets all get set to a default Stay command instead of a default Follow command instead of just asking for an option for the player to set their preferred MM pet summon state is basically the same thing, just reversed.

 

I don't insist that. I know how to control my pets. Please read this thread, it was very helpful to me: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/22373-concerning-this-forum/

 

 

I did not see a use-case for the current behavior as compared to the desired behavior, which is why I originally suggested a change. I believed I was optimizing and improving. However, you've suggested two situations where the current behavior is more optimal, which makes me believe that a more flexible approach would be the better route forward, to allow for both of our use-cases to be addressed.

[Burnt Umber]

Although I understand the OP's frustrations, I'm not a fan of the suggestion because it would mean that pets would not be summoned in Bodyguard mode.  The reason they summon to the default stance of Defensive Follow is for them to be in Bodyguard mode; it has been that way since Bodyguard mode was introduced.  The OP's suggestion would mean that the MM is more squishy when (re-)summoning pets rather than more protected.

[gabrilend]

4 minutes ago, Burnt Umber said:

Although I understand the OP's frustrations, I'm not a fan of the suggestion because it would mean that pets would not be summoned in Bodyguard mode.  The reason they summon to the default stance of Defensive Follow is for them to be in Bodyguard mode; it has been that way since Bodyguard mode was introduced.  The OP's suggestion would mean that the MM is more squishy when (re-)summoning pets rather than more protected.

 

My understanding is that the Bodyguard functionality is dependent upon the stance of the minions, not the orders. So two pets in defensive mode would both act as bodyguards, even if one was set to "follow" and the other to "stay"

 

However, I understand your concern - especially with mobility at play, as @Rudra explained. I now believe that the best approach going forward would be to offer the option for Masterminds to define the default functionality of their pets when summoned as they will, rather than changing the default behavior for all Masterminds.

 

However, I am not privy to the technical requirements for accomplishing that task, so I have no way of knowing whether or not it'd be better to utilize one approach over the other. If it's a question of either "follow" or "stay", I can make arguments in favor of "stay", however I have no reason to believe that would be necessary. Much better, I believe, to hope for the more flexible and empowering approach, wouldn't you say?

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

My understanding is that the Bodyguard functionality is dependent upon the stance of the minions, not the orders. So two pets in defensive mode would both act as bodyguards, even if one was set to "follow" and the other to "stay"

Incorrect. Bodyguard Mode is Defensive Follow. I've heard that there is another option still using Defensive, but the only time I've seen Bodyguard Mode work is in Defensive Follow.

[gabrilend]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Incorrect. Bodyguard Mode is Defensive Follow. I've heard that there is another option still using Defensive, but the only time I've seen Bodyguard Mode work is in Defensive Follow.

 

According to this snippet from the Paragon Wiki, defensive goto and defensive stay also work:

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Mastermind_Strategy#Bodyguard