"Surface Tile" in bases

[Snarky]

There is a wonderful group of items in the first tab of the base editor.  Including surface tile. Which, like everything in the base editor, is a pain to work with.

 

but I started messing with it.  One of my peeves about base items is they are not truly 3 dimensional.  Usually, they have no bottom.  So, if you are building epic tall structures. people look up.  and see nothing.

 

So, I made a few rows of columns and manueverd the tiles up on top.  Put glass floor  "surface" on that.  colored "Surface Tile grey.  Was happy.  I had a floor, glass, and from underneath a obvious structure.  out of base editor most of the Surface tiles disappeared.  A couple stayed grey.  

 

What am I working with here?  Is there a way to keep them there, and keep them grey?

 

Similary I put in the tall tower as a base.  It was invisible until I put some objects on it.  Now it is grey all the way up/  Will it disappear after a few hundred hours work on it?

 

 

[Monty Haull]

I have made a glass floor and discovered the same as you.  So, a few ideas all of which are a PITA.  

 

You place a surface tile of equal size, upside-down.  You could do a partial inset of an object into the glass then place to object on top.  This happened to me when trying to put a counter on top of a glass floor.

 

You will find the doorways have to be butterflied as well.  

 

We are using the editor outside of its designed parameters and we are paying for it.

[Etched]

This really isn't that big of a hassle.  Once you set a Floor Tile or Glass Floorin just set a second one exactly on top of the original and use Alt+Shift or Alt+Ctrl to flip it on its axis.  Now it will have the same texture on both sides. This takes all of 3 seconds to accomplish. 

 

As far as the Editor Helper tiles one is transparent once you exit the edit mode and the other is a solid surface. 

 

@Etched

[ZacKing]

1 hour ago, Etched said:

This really isn't that big of a hassle.  Once you set a Floor Tile or Glass Floorin just set a second one exactly on top of the original and use Alt+Shift or Alt+Ctrl to flip it on its axis.  Now it will have the same texture on both sides. This takes all of 3 seconds to accomplish. 

 

No offense as I'm sure you don't mean it to be and you're trying to be helpful, but this is a little condescending.  You're telling @Snarky how little of a hassle it is to double the amount of objects and double the amount of work needed to accomplish building a glass floor.  Yeah, it may "only take 3 seconds" to do once.  Multiply that out by however many tiles someone is looking to work with, which depending on their idea and concept, those 3 seconds can very quickly turn out to be a much longer investment of time and a big hassle. 

 

I agree with @Monty Haull, the editor is a real PITA to work with, and this bit is spot on.

 

2 hours ago, Monty Haull said:

We are using the editor outside of its designed parameters and we are paying for it.

 

Don't get me wrong, we can build some really awesome stuff with bases, but at the same time the tool itself is a huge PITA.  I know for me, I've spent way more time trying to fix inadequacies with how the editor works and interacts with the objects in it.  

 

Personally, I'd love to see some of the effort going into adding more items into the editor be used on actually improving how the editor tool works and adding in smaller scale functional items. 

 

[Etched]

The "Hassle" reference was actually pointed towards Monty.

 

I would guess neither of you built bases during Live/Legacy . That was the biggest PITAs you would ever experience. Stacking desk repeatedly and then placing a floor tile to place items. Wasn't  any useful keys like  F1, F2, F3, or F5 keys or Alt to rotate items or being stuck to just build within the base. 

 

Now we can build worlds.

 

Bases now are simple to work, all you need to do is remember a handful of Hot Keys and you can basically do anything you imagination will allow. 

 

Ask any builder and the one thing you'll  ever truly need is TIME. That is it. Time to learn how everything works and then puttin them together to make a great base.

 

Once Snarky learns how things function with the base he'll make something truly awesome.

 

@Etched

[ZacKing]

1 hour ago, Etched said:

I would guess neither of you built bases during Live/Legacy . That was the biggest PITAs you would ever experience. Stacking desk repeatedly and then placing a floor tile to place items. Wasn't  any useful keys like  F1, F2, F3, or F5 keys or Alt to rotate items or being stuck to just build within the base. 

 

I stacked more than my fair share of cabinets back in the day that I still have nightmares about it.  It's the main reason I didn't mess with bases for a long time after this server went public.  I got into it because I visited a few of the really cool bases people built and shared with the public.  Some of those folk have been extremely helpful with their time and help. 

 

Hotkeys are great for sure, but depending on what you're looking to build, you're still stacking tons of stuff.  Especially since we're stuck with working with disparate pieces in the editor that weren't meant to fit or work together and don't share a common design theme, and you have to work with them one piece at a time.  Even with hotkeys, the editor is still buggy, temperamental and a huge PITA to work within.  I understand it was never meant to work the way it's being used now, so there's that. 

 

1 hour ago, Etched said:

Bases now are simple to work

 

I really don't think the people who've built some of the more complex bases I've seen here would say they were "simple" to build.  I think that's a really disingenuous claim to make. 

 

[Vexxillion]

4 hours ago, ZacKing said:

 

I really don't think the people who've built some of the more complex bases I've seen here would say they were "simple" to build.  I think that's a really disingenuous claim to make. 

 

 

Etched said "simple to work" and for what it's worth, I agree. The editor is more easy to use now than it ever has been. Magnitudes easier, even comparing it to the way it was just 14 months ago. Once someone learns all of the tools, the only limit is creativity.

 

That's not to say there isn't a learning curve, but it's not a steep one, especially with the loads of helpful material available to us. All it requires is time and a willingness to learn. I think Etched's advice is sound.

 

Cheers,

@Garbage Wizard

[Excraft]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'll say that even with the editor improvements, it's still a very tedious, time consuming, confusing and frustratingly annoying tool to use.  For someone like me who just creates very basic one room hubs for my characters, I'll never create anything even remotely like the bases I see people making here.  After dabbling a bit with the editor, I can safely say I simply don't have the patience for it, and the annoyingly frustrating editor certainly didn't help.  From what I've seen and experienced first hand, there's a whole lot more nuance to working with objects in the editor than "simply" using hotkeys.  It was very, very buggy in my experience as it kept shifting me around when I didn't want it to and kept grabbing objects that I didn't have highlighted.  I gave up after a few frustrating attempts.  It simply wasn't worth it.  I've got a whole list of things that I don't like about it.

 

You can definitely build some great and amazing stuff in there.  I just won't agree it's an easy tool to use.  It was easier to build homes and whole neighborhoods in games like the SIMS 20 years ago.  Granted, the code for the base editor here is utterly ancient and was never intended to be used to build stuff like it is now, so it's beyond it's shelf life. 

[Etched]

The only thing I can add is that if it is such a pain in the ass to use, why are there so many base builders? 

 

When people bash the Editor then that is goin to discourage future players to even try it when all they read is how much of a PITA it is.

 

So yes, I will stick with what I said before.

 

Base buildin is not a hassle. 

 

@Etched

 

 

 

[ZacKing]

3 hours ago, Etched said:

The only thing I can add is that if it is such a pain in the ass to use, why are there so many base builders? 

 

How many are there exactly?  And how many builders in relation to the overall population of the game?  I'll bet is a tiny minority of the players.  How many of them are alt accounts for a builder?  I know for a fact there's a few that are done using alt accounts. 

 

3 hours ago, Etched said:

When people bash the Editor then that is goin to discourage future players to even try it when all they read is how much of a PITA it is.

 

Sugar coating the editor as being this effortless tool is less helpful and absolutely dishonest.  You're being very disingenuous and deceptive in trying to say it's "easy" to build a complex base just because of hot keys and that hot keys solve every problem the editor has.  Especially building above the base when you're having to manipulate thousands of items (if not more) individually one at a time.  That's tedious. 

 

It's best to let people interested in learning about building have all the facts.  Yes, hot keys are an improvement that are very helpful and a big help.  So are the collision walls and surface towers and being able to see the hidden markers for stuff.  Those are great.  You still can't manipulate and move multiple objects at once, the object list isn't organized all that well and unless you know the name of what you're looking for, you just have to scroll through a long list on multiple tabs to find it, you can't search for an item by name in a room that may have a thousand pieces in it without scrolling through a list instead of just searching for it, the editor still randomly shifts stuff around when trying to place it, the editor loves to move you around intermittently for no reason I can tell, etc. etc. etc.

 

Again, it's abundantly clear very cool bases can be made.  I just think some folk here are very flippant about how "easy" it is to do and are sugar coating the difficulties and tedious nature in working with the editor.   Yeah, welcome improvements have been made to the editor, but it's still got very long way to go.

 

Edited April 8 by ZacKing

[Dacy]

I will say a couple of things here. 
 

First, I will agree to some extent that the editor is not super beginner friendly. It’s not difficult to do basic things, but the more complicated things that you want to do, the more complex the editing actions.  However, the flexibility we enjoy is very good. 
 

The items that have one side are generally from items available when the game was Live. The newer items mostly have all sides. Realize that the missing sides are saving processing and memory, that’s why they were designed that way. Yes, you can double them up.  There are also some items that aren’t so thin that could be used.  Tech balconies, ledges, and even thicker things.  Chalet roof pieces can be angled to become floors. What you use is up to you, and we have asked for things like what you want, to make building easier. I have no idea when those things will come..

 

The things in the editing tab are mostly just meant to help with editing, which is why they disappear. The dev decided to make the surfaces with collision stay visible so they don’t trap people, but all but the blackest black in both colors will show stars.  
 

The editor can let you build basic things easily, as I said. But it is not yet built to be easy to create complex builds.  For that, willingness to learn and patience are your best tools.  
 

How many builders do we have? Well, there are more than 500 on just my discord, and I’m very very sure not all builders are on that discord. I’d say many players try their hand at at least basic building. Complex builders are much more rare.  
 

[Excraft]

Honest perspective from an outsider here ...

 

I can't speak for everyone, however I think it safe to say everyone understands that you all have to tow the line as it were on the topic of the base editor. I believe everyone understands you're trying to build a community of base builders, so being more honest, forthcoming and truthful about the editor tool itself and the time investment involved in building complex things isn't necessarily going to further that goal. 

 

Reading through the various posts on the subject as an admitted outsider who has dabbled with building, it seems to me there's a disconnect between what's being said by everyone here.  It seems everyone understands and agree there's been some nice feature improvements made to the editor that have made building a little less of a hassle and improved it from what it used to be.  Those new improvements still don't solve any of the other myriad of issues and buggy nature of the editor.  It's an ancient bit of code that's doing well beyond what it was intended for, so it's understandable that it isn't perfect.  I think most people will understand that, so I don't quite get why there's this need to gloss over the shortcomings of the editor tool.  I guess it's just part of the overall air of the unspoken rule of"don't be critical of anything" here on these forums. 

 

Just being honest here, I don't think you're ever going to convince anyone that having to handle and manipulate thousands upon thousands upon thousands of objects individually one at a time many multiples of times in order to make something work is "simple" , "easy" or "hassle free".  It's anything but that, and I think you all know that.  Trying to claim it isn't just makes one roll their eyes in disbelief.

 

None of that is to say anyone shouldn't be proud of what they've built and continue to create, especially those sharing their efforts with the public at large for everyone to enjoy.  I can confidently say everyone using the publicly available bases built by someone else thank you for your work and appreciate you spending your time for us to have a new place to enjoy.

 

Last point, this question was asked earlier in the thread...

 

11 hours ago, Etched said:

The only thing I can add is that if it is such a pain in the ass to use, why are there so many base builders? 

 

Here's the honest answer -

 

5 hours ago, Dacy said:

Complex builders are much more rare.  

 

You all may want to consider that the editor itself plays a very big role in there being very few of the already small number of people dabbling in building other than basic stuff.  There's nothing wrong with admitting the tool has many shortcomings considering its age and original purpose.  Nor is criticizing the editor a personal insult to any of the HC people working on the game.  They didn't build any of the editor code, and I don't think anyone is trying to blame them or criticize them for it.  It is what it is, but trying to sell the editor as a Lamborghini when it's really an Edsel isn't working. 

[Dacy]

Well, didn't feel I was "glossing over" or "trying to sell" anything, tbh.  WHERE in what I said did you get that impression?? I DO, however, have a personal belief that carping about things solves nothing. Focusing on the negatives only ever makes them more dominant. You can block out the moon with your thumb by focusing on it instead of the larger moon; doesn't make your thumb actually larger, it just makes it seem larger. This perspective comes from a personal trek through hardship, and learning to focus on the bigger picture, not the bumps in the road, not any effort on my part to "build community" or any sense of 'towing the line". No one from "up high" tells me anything, much less dictates a policy on how we should talk about things, nor do I feel like dissing the editor is casting shadow on the current dev team.

 

Yes, the editor could use some reprogramming. It won't get it. We have too few devs, and part of the part about "just how many base builders are there" defense WAS because we get glossed over and dismissed, imo, all too frequently as being not substantive and therefore, easy to ignore. I may not feel the need to "build community" (it's built itself, imo, I'm just a focal point), but I DO want to shout out that WE ARE HERE, and WE MATTER, because that is possibly the only way we MIGHT get a better editor some day.

 

But I also understand the limitations. Not only is the code old, spaghettified, and intractable, but any modifications have to allow current bases to be able to still be edited. That has to be a TALL order, especially when the code itself was so complex and horrible that the Live devs wouldn't even touch it. They had no idea how to even approach it.

 

So, yeah. The editor can be a pain. However, I think what you see as "glossing over" are simply people who have learned to use it, which becomes automatic after a time, and so it IS easy to use...for them.  And some of us enjoy the challenges of creating what we do out of what we have to work with! It's no big deal to say, "I made a bakery" when you have things that lend themselves easily to making such a thing. It is quite another level to say so when there is not much in the editor that is actually meant to be something you'd find in or for a bakery, and you've made something that looks just like it. My Chapel is a bunch of soaring thin arches, in an editor which has no thin curved pieces. I made a dragon in my Witch's House. Vexxillion made trains out of alphabet letters in his most recent base (it's gorgeous).  I do not know of many other games where this level of creativity and out of the box creation is available. So yes, I put up with what we DON'T have because of what we DO have, and I encourage others to learn how to use it, and teach them how, when they are willing to learn. Some are not. Some do, and are justifiably proud of whatever it is they create.  I do not think it is all that difficult to learn how to use the editor for basic construction. Even intermediate efforts, having learned some of the finer points, is not difficult. Learning all the ins and outs, though, takes a while. Actually putting more complex things together DOES take time, persistence, and some level of determination. And yes, not everyone has this. But some hear "the editor is a PITA" and decide it must not be worth even trying to edit, and I think that's a disservice to them. Because I truly do not think it's that much of a pain to learn the basics. I did a video on the basics of how to use the editing commands that's only a few minutes long. Seven keys and the mouse are all you use; three of those keys you use in combination for two of the commands, for a total of just 4 commands and 4 setting keys. That is not complex. Now, what those few commands allow you to do....that CAN get to be complex! And that is the beauty that I see in the editor.

 

No one is claiming this is state of the art and effortless. What you are hearing, from the people who have been using it for a good while is, there's a learning curve, yes, but not nearly an impossible one. What you apparently see as "glossing over" "selling an Edsel as a Lamborghini" and us "having to tow the line on the topic of the base editor" is just us being honest with our experience. With willingness to learn the finer points, this is not particularly difficult. For me, using the editor is muscle memory, just like operating my character. I don't have to think about how to move my character or fire off the powers I need. I sure did when I started this game, never having played anything like this before. I did not enter the editor and immediately start creating the builds I can do now, but now I don't think about how to do it, I merely have to figure out WHAT I am doing.

And this is what we're telling Snarky et. al. There is nothing in the editor that prohibits anyone from doing amazing things; however, I do know that there are things inside of people that will prevent them from even trying. Personal preference on my part, I'd rather encourage people to try, than be negative and feed disillusionment and discouragement. Because of how that affects the PERSON, not the GAME. You do you, but this is me. I've seen people blossom and do things they never thought they could do, and the sense of accomplishment that comes with that; personally, I'm not going to rob anyone of the chance of feeling that for themselves, if I can help it.

 

 

 

[Dacy]

4 hours ago, Excraft said:

Those new improvements still don't solve any of the other myriad of issues and buggy nature of the editor.

Also, just had to directly respond to this. If you don't see that 1) being able to undo things 2) being able to lift things with key commands and your mouse instead of by stacking floor items, and 3) shift not being an issue anymore as "still (not) solv(ing) any of the other myriad of issues" with the editor, I doubt there is anything anyone here can say that is going to change your attitude of negativity.

 

The editor is not well written. No one here is claiming otherwise. However, when you realize HOW it was programmed, why it is acting the way it is (which is entirely a matter of how it was programmed to act, not "buggy" behavior), you learn how to work with it. It's like getting into a stick shift and calling it buggy because it's not a standard and doesn't behave like a standard. No, the stick isn't buggy, it's a stick shift. You learn to drive it as a stick shift, not as a standard shift. A beginner will get a lot of stall outs and gear grinds from a stick, but that doesn't make the car a bad car. Race cars have stick shifts that professionals get more out of than if they were standard shifts. It's a matter of learning to drive the car you have. We don't have the easiest or most intuitive editor, but we do have one of the most flexible ones (and therein lies its programming difficulties.). And we can get great things from it, but yes, that takes effort, and I don't think anyone is minimizing that. No one is out there advertising that the editor is quick and effortless, or in here saying that, for that matter. But it's also not the impossible PITA that you seem to be saying it is, at least not from our experiences. I'm sorry that was your experience, and I'd be happy to show you why things were jumping all over, and how to keep them from doing that. Grabbing items you don't want to grab...I know that's a pain, it comes from the fact that the item boxes have to be square or rectangular and accommodate the widest point of the item...and so you can be under, say, a tree, and although you don't THINK you're intersecting that item box...you are, and so the computer grabs it for you. Annoying, yes. To me, knowing that some things are going to get grabbed more easily just means I put those things in last. Not a bug. Not optimal, but as programmed, it's what we have to work with, and just knowing how it works, I can deal with it. Some people can't. And I wish I could make that better for them, and I wish the editor WAS easier to use, but all I can do is what I do: show people how to use it, encourage them to try, and let them decide for themselves if they want to do more with it or not. I feel this is much more likely to get people to at least try, than to go around talking about how much of a pain it is, especially when, at this point, that is not my feeling about it at all.

 

Now, yes, the editor does sometimes have weird errors, but truly, these are not common. I know, I get called about these all the time. Typically, when I go into the base, the error is in something the user was doing or not doing, not a true "bug" where the code is doing something the code should not be doing. (But a computer will always do what you tell it to, so that's a matter of figuring out what we programmed that we didn't mean to program.) But every so often, I do find something that is legitimately not something the user did or did not do. But mostly I find that it's a matter of someone thinking that the editor should work in a way it's not programmed to work, and it's a matter of educating them on how it's actually working so they understand what it is they need to do. There is nothing I can do about how the editor is programmed, but there is a lot I can do about teaching people how to get the most out of it.

 

[Excraft]

8 hours ago, Dacy said:

Also, just had to directly respond to this. If you don't see that 1) being able to undo things 2) being able to lift things with key commands and your mouse instead of by stacking floor items, and 3) shift not being an issue anymore as "still (not) solv(ing) any of the other myriad of issues" with the editor, I doubt there is anything anyone here can say that is going to change your attitude of negativity.

 

It's clear in reading this that I'm correct regarding the air of the unspoken rule of "don't be critical of anything" about the game.  I don't have an "attitude of negativity" regarding bases or base building.  In no way am I trying to discourage anyone from trying their hand at building.  I offered constructive feedback as an amateur user of the tool.  Respectfully, my experience with the tool and how it works, the amount of effort involved in building something other than a standard room is that it is too tedious and time intensive a process.  As I said, I fully understand that the editor is ancient and being used in ways it was never intended to be used.  I'm not faulting anyone for that.  It is what it is and I'm happy we have it.  Getting rid of the whole prestige nonsense and opening up bases for everyone is a great thing.  I'm just offering my opinion on it and expressing that I personally don't agree it's right to tell people how easy it is to build bases they may see without letting them know how much work goes into that.  I think you're underestimating people and their ability to make decisions when they have all of the facts.  Sure, some people will see that the editor is tedious and time consuming to use and give up on it.  Others will see it as a creative challenge and dive right in.  I want to be clear, I'm not discouraging anyone from trying to build a base. 

 

As I read it, everyone has said that the few improvements like hot keys and such have made it better than it was.  It still does have errors and bugs, which you yourself have admitted to along with it being poorly written.  I'm not sure I understand why it's ok for you to make those comments, but when someone else points it out, we're "being negative".  I understand this issue is close to the heart for you, but I'm sorry to say there still are many issues with how the editor works.  In my experience, the whole shift movement thing still persists to this day and I find objects randomly moved every so often.  At least these were there a month ago when I last tried the editor. 

 

With regard to the assertions that the editor is "hassle free" and "easy to use", I'll cite one of your own posts from another thread-

 

Quote

Just place a surface tile (no collision) on the surface of the ledge where you want things to be.

 

In this example, instead of just being able to place one item on top of another and having it work like it intuitively should, you're suggesting the solution is to add a third object in to make the other two work as desired.  To me, that isn't "hassle free" or "easy", it's tedious and adding yet another step to an already time consuming and cumbersome process of object manipulation.  You can certainly disagree and there's nothing wrong with that.  What defines "easy" and "hassle free" differ greatly between different individuals.  I understand this is the process that may need to be followed in order to work within the tool. 

 

I'd like to finish by saying I think it's great that you're devoting your time to helping others learn about building.  I believe it safe to say everyone appreciates your efforts on that front, so please do continue. 

[Dacy]

8 hours ago, Excraft said:

It's clear in reading this that I'm correct regarding the air of the unspoken rule of "don't be critical of anything" about the game.  I don't have an "attitude of negativity" regarding bases or base building.  In no way am I trying to discourage anyone from trying their hand at building.  I offered constructive feedback as an amateur user of the tool.

And yet, later in the post, you pounce on the fact that I "admitted the editor was poorly written". In the same post as this quote, where there is an "unspoken rule" to not be critical of anything. Uh oh, looks like that logic's blown, bc there I am, being critical!!

 

You ask why I am "allowed" to be critical, and yet you are criticized ("not allowed") for it. I will set out some examples of why I think you are getting this reaction. First of all, of course you are allowed to be critical. Discussions of opposing opinions do not mean one is allowed and one is not. I already told you, you do you, and I told you why I prefer a positive approach. But see, when I say "it's poorly written", that was agreeing with your point of criticisms about its ease of use. Yes, you're right, it's not written in such a way that you can do complex builds easily as in, plop, poof, done. But neither is it horribly buggy. It works as it is programmed to work, and when you understand how it's working, as these very experienced base builders testify, it IS easy for us to use. That is a perspective. That is subjective. You have been trying to "drive stick" without taking into account that you need to learn to how to drive stick and practice before you can be any good at it. Telling future builders that "the editor is buggy and horrible to use" might be true for you from your perspective, but it does not help them learn how to use it. If I say something critical, like, "it IS poorly written" I then will go on to tell you why you're having the problems you are, and what to do about them, whereas you are only weighing in on how miserable your experience was. What in that helps someone with their problems? When more experienced editors say, hey, this is how you address that, and it's easy, again, that IS their perspective, and I believe it's meant to give hope to the builder. It gets easier as you learn how.

 

Saying that the editor is to blame might help someone feel better short term (it's not me, it's that horrible program!), and of course, if you prefer to blame bad programming instead of learning how it can be used, that's really the only approach that will make you feel better about yourself (not saying that's how you are thinking, that's a nonspecific "you"), but if you want to improve as a builder, it's a dead end.  What people have said here is that improvement will take time and patience. That's not misrepresenting anything, that's perfectly true. It's also true that many do not want to put in time and patience, and that, as I see time and time again, is where the dividing line lies. Would people do more in the editor if it was something like the Sims, where you can just click and 'poof', a wall appears, complete with decoration? Yes, I know they would. Could we create as much as we do in an editor that's programmed to do such specific things? No, we could not. So it's a trade off, and guess what, we don't get a choice about it. This is the editor we have. So my perspective is, it's better to help people learn its ins and outs, than to point out flaws without solutions.

 

I get that you feel your feedback was constructive. I think you have the approach that likes to point out problems with things, so others are aware of them; I'm aware this is a mindset for some. However (paraphrasing) "tried it, didn't work like I wanted it to, didn't like it, so I quit"  to me, just doesn't encourage someone who's having problems. Now, if this had been a topic about "what's wrong with the editor, and why aren't more people using it", then yes, your feedback would have been pointing out what is wrong, in your experience.

 

But really, this topic went off the rails when people reacted to Etched using the word "easy". To those who have tried to just jump in and edit and found that the editor is not very intuitive or self-explanatory, and who quickly got frustrated because they did not understand why things were behaving as they were, I can understand why "easy" is not a term they would apply.  But for those who take the time to learn how to use the editor, which really isn't very long, and then keep at it, it will become easier and easier. It really is rather like stick shift driving. Beginners in stick often make the car lurch and stall, and people who don't know how to drive stick can wind up going nowhere because, for instance, they don't know they have to engage the clutch before they shift. However, this is the kind of engine race car drivers use. To get to be a race car driver, you need to get really good at using a stick shift, and I'm sure there is much you also need to learn. Not everyone wants to be a race car driver, and that's fine, but they can still use stick in a regular car, smoothly without undue effort, once they know how, and they're happy with that. Some people don't want to mess with a stick shift car and so won't drive one, and that's also fine.  But just because it's more complicated to operate doesn't make it a horrible car. It just has a learning curve. And I'm not trying to "disallow criticism" and, how did you put it? Obey the "unspoken rule of not criticizing anything in this game", I'm trying to give you perspective from someone who's very very familiar with the editor.

 

I rather think this imagined "rule" you think exists is more along the lines of "people don't like to hear others talking smack about something dear to them". This game is famous for how much people love it. We love it so much we brought it back from the dead.  No one is getting paid to do anything here, so it's all just personal choice to participate at whatever level. The base editor may have its flaws, but it also has been given even better new life, and those of us who love to create, adore what we can do and love spending our time there. You are getting an emotional reaction because your criticism comes across as an attack on something dear, and that's about as much as I can explain things. There is no "rule"; people just aren't going to let it go by without comment when someone say things that, in their experience, is incorrect. Disagreement is not censure.

 

I'd really have to see these items you say are moving. I have a base I've been working with, literally for years, with HUGE shift issues, and I know of a few other bases like this, and none of these bases have had shift since they fixed it.  People who edit a lot have all agreed, it's been fixed. I tend to trust it when a lot of experienced people say the same thing, but I'm always watching for problems and exceptions. And as for bugs, I would say that the vast majority of the time, the problem lies with the user's understanding of the situation. It is very difficult to find an error that is not actually a user error, but I have found a very small number of them. Since that number IS very small, I do not agree that the program is "buggy".

 

I don't think we are actually even disagreeing here, just focused on different things. You want the program to be easy and intuitive and fast, and it's not. That's an obvious fact.  And it's not one I hide. I will agree that it's not intuitive or beginner friendly, that's WHY I make the videos. I will agree that manipulating hundreds and even thousands of items can be tedious. I will also point out, there, that we manipulate far fewer items than a RL building would take. However, I will say that, even with things like this being true. there is nothing all that difficult about what you need to learn to use the editor, and the trade off is, you can let your imagination run wild as to what you might create. I will say also that it becomes easier until it is actually easy to use, and this just takes time and patience, with a bit of determination thrown in. Will everyone want to do that? No, but everyone CAN if they WANT to, and THAT is my point. And I understand that you understand that it's a mater of perspective, and you don't want to, and that's fine. I just disagree with "there still are many issues with how the editor works." For people willing to learn, there are no big issues with the editor. There are issues with some items we really should have for basic building blocks that are not there. The disagreement, then, is simply on the preference and the focus. You prefer an easier editor. There would be trade offs in flexibility and creative use, if we got that (but we're not going to get it). You think the current editor is buggy and difficult to use. On this, we disagree. Experienced editors all seem to agree, with time, it's actually easy, and having answered many calls for people with problems, I've found that it's rarely the program, but more often a misunderstanding, that is causing the error. If you learn how to use the editor, and give it some time and practice, you can be editing easily, too. I do believe this, and that is why I keep trying to teach people.

 

Edited April 9 by Dacy

[Excraft]

5 hours ago, Dacy said:

And yet, later in the post, you pounce on the fact that I "admitted the editor was poorly written". In the same post as this quote, where there is an "unspoken rule" to not be critical of anything. Uh oh, looks like that logic's blown, bc there I am, being critical!!

 

Well no, it's actually proving my point perfectly.  I don't see anyone at all jumping all over you for saying anything remotely critical about the editor tool.  Others who have offered essentially the exact same criticisms of the editor and/or shared a different opinion on its "ease of use" are told that we're "being negative" and "discouraging others" and the like.  There is zero of that focused on you for saying the exact same thing.  Why aren't you or anyone else leveling the same animus toward yourself as you are me and anyone else who doesn't find editing a breeze?  Aren't you "being negative" and "discouraging others" by saying the editor has issues?  If you're unable to objectively see that, I can't help you. 

 

5 hours ago, Dacy said:

It works as it is programmed to work, and when you understand how it's working, as these very experienced base builders testify, it IS easy for us to use. That is a perspective. That is subjective.

 

Correct.  Your perspective and subjective opinion on what is or isn't "easy" is no more or no less valid than mine that the editor is cumbersome and tedious to use.  I'll reiterate yet again, I understand it's ancient code that is doing things well beyond what it was originally intended for.  I get it.  You have to work within the parameters of what it's designed to do.  I just don't find those parameters enjoyable or fun, nor are they intuitive.  That's no fault of anyone here at HC and it's not a personal attack or criticism of their work.  They're doing the best they can do with what they have and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

I'd also like to add, I know a few people whom I would classify as expert builders that have built some amazing bases who all say the editor isn't easy to use.  So no, not every very experienced base builder agrees on how "easy" the tool is. 

 

I'm not sure why you're hyper focused on the idea that my opinions and criticisms of the editing tool are discouraging people from even trying.  I've made it a point to say that's not the case nor is it my intent a number of times.  I do think its important for people to know the true level of effort and time that will be required for a complex build.  I think it's a mistake to be making posts and videos about how "easy it is" to do without letting people know that it took potentially hundreds of hours, if not more to build a base.  Not being upfront about that is not a good thing either, especially if someone dives in thinking it's a simple 1-2-3 five minute thing to build an above the plot cityscape with all the trimmings.

 

Some of the bases I've visited are upwards of 12,000 objects and higher.  Even if you very conservatively estimate it takes 30 seconds to manipulate each object, you're still looking at a full time job level of hours.  For me personally, I already have a full time job and a family, so I don't have the time nor desire to devote to building a complex base.  Others do and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.  More power to them.

 

5 hours ago, Dacy said:

I will say also that it becomes easier until it is actually easy to use, and this just takes time and patience, with a bit of determination thrown in. Will everyone want to do that? No, but everyone CAN if they WANT to, and THAT is my point.

 

I don't disagree with you at all on this and have said so repeatedly. 

[Triumphant]

I love the base editor.  I love building bases.  This game has the best base builder that I've ever seen.  It's just that the base builder still has a few rough edges that can... yes, make some things pretty frustrating and tedious at times.

 

That sounds contradictory, and perhaps to some extent it is, but it's also true to my experience of using the base editor.  The frustrating bits aren't going to make me quit base building, because I enjoy building bases.  But certain things are still going to frustrate me and I'm always going to wish that those rough edges could be filed off.

I think most people probably have similar feelings about the game (indeed, about most any video game) generally.  They really love it, but there's just some things that frustrate them (maybe that's power sets that feel unbalanced or off somehow, or npc/mobs that annoy them, or they feel a certain mission or mission type is poorly designed or boring, etc.)- rough edges of the game that we wish could be filed off, as it were.

When I pipe up about a particular thing in the game that annoys me, or when I commiserate with a fellow player about something that frustrates us both, I do so partly because it's encouraging to know that it's not just me- that there really IS something about whatever particular thing that is annoying to me, that is also annoying to other players.  Also, if there's enough people that also find it problematic and complain about it, maybe it will be something that the devs will decide to put into the "to do" list when they are deciding how to allocate their time for working on the game.  This may be even more likely, if the one of the Dev's themselves finds it tedious.  They might read the post and say to themselves, "Oh yeah- I find that pretty frustrating too.  Maybe I'll look into that and see if I can find a solution."

I'm not saying that I expect that result (I don't) or that the Devs are obligated to address or solve every thing that players complain about (they aren't), but maybe having them aware of the issue just bumps up the odds a hair that something might be done about it in the future.  And to defend this last point, I will say that there HAVE been a great many changes and improvements to the base builder done by the devs since I started playing COH back in 2019, so I know that they DO read these forums and they DO work to address issues that we bring up as time allows.

 

Anyway, I don't think there's anything to argue about here.  Just a people venting a little about some things that frustrate them when working with the base editor.  I feel like that's okay.

Edited April 10 by Triumphant

[Dacy]

1 hour ago, Excraft said:

Well no, it's actually proving my point perfectly.  I don't see anyone at all jumping all over you for saying anything remotely critical about the editor tool.  Others who have offered essentially the exact same criticisms of the editor and/or shared a different opinion on its "ease of use" are told that we're "being negative" and "discouraging others" and the like.  There is zero of that focused on you for saying the exact same thing.  Why aren't you or anyone else leveling the same animus toward yourself as you are me and anyone else who doesn't find editing a breeze?  Aren't you "being negative" and "discouraging others" by saying the editor has issues?  If you're unable to objectively see that, I can't help you. 

From the start of this...discussion, you have been making this more about what I and others are doing and saying while pretending you are "just giving feedback", despite "not having a dog in this fight". I've tried to keep this focused on issues and ignore the personal attacks, but addressing the issues and even agreeing with you did not stop them, you just keep coming back. Examples:

 

On 4/8/2024 at 7:09 PM, Excraft said:

safe to say everyone understands that you all have to tow the line as it were on the topic of the base editor

Insulting and condescending. Essentially saying, "you're lying and trying to make it look good because you have to". Just made me smh and go, huh?? Of course, then I remembered, you left HC because you were all hot and bothered about supposedly seeing people being shut down if they expressed negative opinions.  To me this is a pretty good indication that your prior perceptions are coloring your take on things now.

On 4/8/2024 at 7:09 PM, Excraft said:

I don't quite get why there's this need to gloss over the shortcomings of the editor tool.  I guess it's just part of the overall air of the unspoken rule of"don't be critical of anything" here on these forums. 

And earlier, you made it clear this applied to "everyone". Again, we're lying because supposedly, there's a "rule" about not being critical. Couldn't be that a tool you found unusable is actually quite effective and easy to use in the hands of others, no that can't be it.

On 4/8/2024 at 7:09 PM, Excraft said:

Just being honest here, I don't think you're ever going to convince anyone that having to handle and manipulate thousands upon thousands upon thousands of objects individually one at a time many multiples of times in order to make something work is "simple" , "easy" or "hassle free".  It's anything but that, and I think you all know that.  Trying to claim it isn't just makes one roll their eyes in disbelief.

So here, you say we "all know" that the editor isn't easy, but later, after I talked about how it WAS easy, for us, the experienced editors:

15 hours ago, Excraft said:

What defines "easy" and "hassle free" differ greatly between different individuals.  I understand this is the process that may need to be followed in order to work within the tool. 

So one might think that you now understand that "easy" is subjective, and I've explained that I'm trying to be encouraging and let people know that there's light at the end of the tunnel, that it will get better, but, no, you still keep insisting that we're being disingenuous with people, that somehow the videos I make make it look like it's easy and quick, and I'm doing people a disservice and lying to people.

 

2 hours ago, Excraft said:

I think it's a mistake to be making posts and videos about how "easy it is" to do without letting people know that it took potentially hundreds of hours, if not more to build a base.  Not being upfront about that is not a good thing either, especially if someone dives in thinking it's a simple 1-2-3 five minute thing to build an above the plot cityscape with all the trimmings.

Nowhere in any video do I say, "This is so easy and quick to do!" I do hope I'm making this easier for people, I do. However, I do not want to put down how long something took me, because THAT would be discouraging...but not the way you think it would be. I'm an experienced builder who functions in the builder without thinking. I know darn well that I do things much much faster than a new person or even an intermediate builder can. I HATE giving the times for my builds, because it could give an inexperienced builder the idea that it will take them that long...and it will take them longer, I guarantee it (and I tell them this). Also, I can't know how long it will take a given person to build anything. Honestly, it never occurred to me that someone would look at my footage that does not show every minute, and the sped up sequences and conclude, "Wow, this is obviously SO EASY and QUICK!" There's no way someone is sitting through a video that is actually as long as what the build is. The goal is to show people how to do something, not document my every step and the time things took. If you want to show people that, be my guest. But I believe people will and do understand, when they are shown all of the things I do while building, that this is something that will take some time. I certainly understand, and I know the people who need my videos understand, that the people who are watching are watching generally because this ISN'T easy for them.

 

15 hours ago, Excraft said:

I personally don't agree it's right to tell people how easy it is to build bases they may see without letting them know how much work goes into that.  I think you're underestimating people and their ability to make decisions when they have all of the facts. 

And I think YOU are underestimating people and their ability to understand how much work went into what they see. I've had comments that show that they do understand.  I do not think I need to spell it out, nor do I think I am misleading people or lying to them. I tell them how to do things. I cannot know who comprehends what, and believe me, I've tried to anticipate what people need to know as well as want to know, but this is definitely a new one, that I'm somehow responsible for making sure that people know that base building will take time and effort, and that if I don't spell that out for people, THAT is somehow underestimating them and misleading them.

 

So, after numerous exchanges, we get to this:

2 hours ago, Excraft said:

I don't see anyone at all jumping all over you for saying anything remotely critical about the editor tool.  Others who have offered essentially the exact same criticisms of the editor and/or shared a different opinion on its "ease of use" are told that we're "being negative" and "discouraging others" and the like.  There is zero of that focused on you for saying the exact same thing.  Why aren't you or anyone else leveling the same animus toward yourself as you are me and anyone else who doesn't find editing a breeze?  Aren't you "being negative" and "discouraging others" by saying the editor has issues?  If you're unable to objectively see that, I can't help you. 

So. I inserted my first comment here without directly calling anyone out. I did not tell anyone they were "being negative". I offered some explanations for some of the problems discussed, answered some questions that were posed, and that was all. Then, of all of the people who had been posting, only you responded, and you responded by taking the discussion into...well, a good number of the quotes above are from that first response. We're lying. We're towing the line for some imagined rule. We're "trying to sell an Edsel as a Lamborghini". It was THIS line of commentary that got you noticed for negativity; no one else here and now. However, ostensibly the response was about the problems with the editor. You even sprinkled in apparent positives, but despite what you might think, those do not negate the disparaging attitude felt throughout your posts. 

 

And why aren't I the focus of "animus" for "negativity"? As I explained before, acknowledging difficulties while responding with ways to work with it and through it is not received the same as leading with negatives with no helpful solutions, and adding to that, you lace your posts with insults and imply or outright say that those who are saying things that don't match with your views are lying and being deceitful; when called out or disagreed with, you play a victim card as you have before and see it as, well, apparently, a conspiracy of sorts. The truth is, when you come at people with negatives and insults, they tend to respond by feeling like you're being negative. The "unwritten rule", "towing the line", including others in this "we" that is being "told that we're being negative" ...look around. There's no one else in this discussion now. There is no "we".  No unwritten rules. No line to tow. Neither am I leading a charge against any who'd dare speak against the editor, as you imply in your last bit up there.  I'll answer to problems people have, I'll give explanations, I'll challenge assertions that are untrue, but I'm certainly not here to shut down those expressing negatives when they express their opinions. I do not have the time or the inclination! I will, however, try and show my own experience, which may be different, rather than let those with little to no experience only hear the negatives of someone who does not know the things I do that can help.

 

And I am done with this circular 'discussion' with you, @Excraft. My response was intended to answer questions and give information, and to support the truth spoken by those being decried as lying and deceitful because they had the nerve to call the editor "easy". It IS easy for some. And it's okay to vent about the problems and annoyances we get. In no way am I saying that isn't okay. But that is not all that was said. Now I've called it out. Moving on.

 

 

[ZacKing]

Not to dump more fuel onto this fire, but pointing out and commenting on things that don't work isn't "leading with negativity" or telling people not to try editing or whatever else they're being accused of doing.  I know in my work, when we ask for feedback on a project we're working on, we'll want to know what isn't working with it first and foremost and want to know more details about those issues rather than what's working right and doesn't need attention.  It's just a different approach in getting to identifying issues and problem solving quicker.  I get that some folks need to have constant, positive reinforcement and positive praise and feedback and don't want to hear about anything else.  That's fine, but that's an individual thing.  I also don't see anyone here using phrases like "the editor sucks!!!"  and "it's a piece of crap!" and such.  At least to me, saying the editor is tedious and cumbersome isn't being disrespectful or negative.  It's someone's honest opinion and feedback and it should be taken seriously IMO. 

 

8 hours ago, Triumphant said:

It's just that the base builder still has a few rough edges that can... yes, make some things pretty frustrating and tedious at times.

 

Totally agreed and that's basically what I was trying to say earlier.  I just didn't like being told I'm wrong because it's "easy" and "effortless" for someone else and that the miracle of hotkeys were the greatest invention since sliced bread.

 

7 hours ago, Dacy said:

And I think YOU are underestimating people and their ability to understand how much work went into what they see.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I know from my perspective it's not that people won't be able to understand how much work something will be, it's that they're being told it's "easy" and "effortless" but not necessarily being told it may take hundreds of hours if not more to create.  I just don't see the harm in letting people know that up front instead of just being told how easy it is.  I didn't know how much time it would take before I started and I can tell you the first base I finished took me a long, long, long, long time to do.  Way more time than I had thought it would.  If someone had told me it would take 150 to 200 hours to complete what I was looking to build, I'd have thought that was rather daunting, but I'd have tried anyway.  At least to my thinking, it's a mistake to assume and a generalization that telling someone upfront the time requirements is going to prevent them from even trying. 

 

Lastly, not that I agree entirely with everything @Excraft has posted, but he's not wrong about a few things.  Feedback running contrary to something other than glowing affirmation and praise is most definitely frowned upon here, especially by the white knight brigade as PeregrineFalcon coined them.  It is what it is though, and I'm just being honest, from what I'm reading here it doesn't sway my opinion on that at all.

 

8 hours ago, Triumphant said:

Anyway, I don't think there's anything to argue about here.  Just a people venting a little about some things that frustrate them when working with the base editor.  I feel like that's okay.

 

Same here.

[Dacy]

Tbh, I don’t go many places on the forums but here.  I can’t speak to what others do; but I’m saying I don’t see a suppression of negative reactions here, and I know I’m not leading a charge against it. I just don’t like being told that I’m lying because of a difference of opinion. 
 

I am sorry you both felt like you were being called a liar because it was harder for you than others. That’s exactly what I was just protesting, from the other side. I guess when having these disagreements, it’s wise to keep in mind the validity of perspective. It’s difficult for you, you regard the necessity of flipping a piece upside down so it looks like it has a bottom as unnecessarily onerous, and yeah, it would be nice to not have to do that. But for others, it’s just something to take in stride. 
 

I agree, commiserating is a good vent, problems need to be pointed out to be solved, and I’m definitely pondering why at least two people got the impression from my videos that building wouldn’t take the time it takes. 
 

However, the hot keys are such a huge improvement over what it used to be, those of us who remember, I think, are going to proclaim how great they are, because they are. But they don’t make this an effortless editor that takes little time to do complex things. 
 

It DOES get better. But it’s not to everyone’s taste. 

[Excraft]

8 hours ago, Dacy said:

Insulting and condescending.

 

Honestly, I think you're reading way too much into what I'm posting.  I'm sorry that you feel like that was a personal insult as it wasn't, but there's not much I can do there to convince you otherwise.  It certainly wasn't meant as one.  I don't know where that's coming from and I could be wrong here, but it seems like your ascribing something to me and my posts that isn't there. 

 

8 hours ago, Dacy said:

So one might think that you now understand that "easy" is subjective, and I've explained that I'm trying to be encouraging and let people know that there's light at the end of the tunnel, that it will get better, but, no, you still keep insisting that we're being disingenuous with people, that somehow the videos I make make it look like it's easy and quick, and I'm doing people a disservice and lying to people.

 

I never said you personally were lying or called you a liar.  I'd love for you to direct quote me where I used the words "lying" or "you're a liar" here.  As I said, I think it's better to let people know up front what's involved and how much time is required to build something complicated and extensive.  That's not a personal insult or attack on you, nor is it me saying you're lying. 

 

8 hours ago, Dacy said:

Of course, then I remembered, you left HC because you were all hot and bothered about supposedly seeing people being shut down if they expressed negative opinions. 

 

8 hours ago, Dacy said:

you play a victim card as you have before

 

I don't know that we've ever had any sort of communication before, at least to my recollection.  I've seen your posts and watched your video tutorials and base tours, but as far as I know we have never interacted before.  I'm not sure how you would know anything about me personally.  You're free to make whatever incorrect assumptions you like though.  I certainly can't stop you.

 

8 hours ago, Dacy said:

And I think YOU are underestimating people and their ability to understand how much work went into what they see.

 

I very well could be.  Isn't it better to let people have all the information up front to let them be the judge for themselves?  That's all I was suggesting.

 

8 hours ago, Dacy said:

And I am done with this circular 'discussion' with you

 

I'm glad.  It certainly seems like that's for the best.  I wish you a good day.

 

[Excraft]

5 minutes ago, Dacy said:

However, the hot keys are such a huge improvement over what it used to be, those of us who remember, I think, are going to proclaim how great they are, because they are. But they don’t make this an effortless editor that takes little time to do complex things. 

 

Thank you for this honesty.

[Dacy]

I do want to apologize, @Excraft, for going into details I should not have. I doubly apologize if your in game global is not Excraft, for that is who I had contact with, and that Excraft is still on my global list. But I should have let that whole post sit for a good while before I posted, it likely would not have seen daylight.

 

I also basically let this become more of an argument than a discussion, and let the feeling of offense translate into saying more than was needed or good. I am sorry for that; from the start I should have acknowledged that all feelings here are valid for that person, and we need not think poorly of ourselves or others because their experience differs from ours. No, I still don't think the editor itself is buggy, and I do feel that the controls are simple, but the process itself is time consuming and there's a definite learning curve. It's like picking up a paint brush. Simple to dip into the paint and put to canvas, but painting with skill is going to take learning the finer points and working until  you master them, and everyone is different in approach, style and the time it takes to do something they are satisfied with. Everyone can paint as in, put paint on brush and put on canvas, but how much time you want to invest to get to where you're happy varies with each person according to their motivation and time. And I understand that no matter what I think, some of you are convinced by your own experience that there is nothing simple or easy about the editor, and for you that is also true.

 

Easter Bunny and I talked, and realized there's no place here where you all can express your frustration with the editor or suggest improvements (just want to do a reality check on suggested improvements, tho; I've said in this thread many times, the chances of big improvements to how the editor functions is low, and it is unlikely to gain functions that will allow beginners to do complex projects in a short amount of time), but yeah, who knows, right? Maybe there's something someone would suggest and the devs might say, you know? We might be able to make that work. They surprised us by fixing base shift, and that was the number one thing on the poll we did a couple of years back, and tbh, we didn't think shift was something they COULD fix. So I'll be making a topic for commentary on the editor, and yes, we know there will be negative comments.

 

However, if there are problems people have that I know how to counter, I will also be giving information on how to deal with that editor oddity. 🙂 I will try to be careful not to sound like people who are frustrated have no right to express it; I'm only here to try to offer things that might help,  Thanks for giving me more experience in understanding where people are coming from.