Fixing Pacify for Tanks/Brutes

[ThatGuyCDude]

There is a long-standing bug wherein the Presence pool power Pacify simply does not work with Tankers and Brutes.  Or rather, it does, but its effect is immediately counteracted by the effect of those archetypes' special powers: Gauntlet and Fury Pokevoke immediately taunt the target of Pacify and draw them back into combat.

Pacify is the only pool power in the game that has no effect on certain archetypes.  So let's fix that!  I've thought of a few ways Pacify might prevent the Tanker/Brute from immediately auto-taunting the target again, and I thought I'd share them.  If anybody has any feedback or any other ideas about this problem, I'd be glad to hear them.

[I'm aware it's a strange pick for Tankers or Brutes to take Pacify.  However, no pool power in the game should break based on a player's archetype choice, no matter how strange the build may be.  As such, I feel this is a very high-priority issue to address]

(A) Crash Threat values for a few seconds after using Pacify
If Pacify crashed the threat percentage of the character to 0 for a few seconds, then the built-in taunts of Tankers and Brutes would still fire as coded but would have no effect, preventing the Pacify from breaking immediately.  Anybody taking this power instead of the fear is likely interested in dropping threat to retreat, or being able to sneak past a group briefly to accomplish a goal [such as activating a clickable mission item].  A 5-second window of no threat would suit this purpose, Tank role or not.

(B) Floor target vision radius for a few seconds after using Pacify
If Pacify rendered the target effectively blind, then any taunt or movement past them would trigger no retaliation.  Unlike crashing threat, this approach would prevent the power from making the rest of the group ignore Pacify's user, though I'm uncertain if mechanically it would actually solve the auto-taunt problem.

(C) Alter Pacify so that the actual placate is a proc: have an initial 'hit' that does nothing and then a follow-up hit that carries the payload of the effect
If the Pacify itself was turned into an automated proc effect after the power triggers, the Gauntlet/Pokevoke effect would resolve FIRST.  This would taunt the target immediately and then Pacify it after to achieve the desired effect [target drops user as a threat].  The April Fools event's effect on Brawl [the fireworks proc] demonstrates that powers auto-triggered by other powers do not themselves trigger proc effects, so an approach like this would likely bypass the bug quite cleanly without changing any underlying mechanic of Pacify itself.

[Rudra]

I don't see this as a very high priority, however, I would like to point something out. Pacify is a Mag 3 ST attack with a 60 feet range. If there is a single foe that a Tanker or Brute wants to pacify, they can just take a few steps back and pacify it, they can jump back and pacify it at the same time, or they can simply stop attacking (including any offensive auras) and then pacify the target. If they want to sneak by something instead? Say to grab a glowie? Then they should invest in stealth powers instead of the ST Pacify.

[ThatGuyCDude]

I've tested it on my Brute: if you are in range to use Pacify, the target will be pacified and then it will immediately break and engage you because of the built-in Taunt.  You can even see it get taunted in the combat log.  Thus, it does not work as intended.

I used clicking a glowie as an example, but Pacify can also be used to crowd control a single target as a form of damage mitigation... except on Tankers and Brutes where it immediately gets broken by their built-in taunt.  Thus, the power is not working as described.

EDIT: And to be clear, I'm not talking about Taunt auras, I'm talking about the archetype power that taunts everything that is subjected to a target action.
https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Inherent_Powers#Gauntlet

Edited April 10 by ThatGuyCDude

[Rudra]

The Tanker's Gauntlet inherent power, which is the punchvoke ability (as well as a few other buffs), triggers when the Tanker attacks something. Brutes "pokevoke" is a much weaker version of the same power. They only taunt when the Tanker or Brute launches an attack. Tankers and Brutes also have auras that taunt enemies, but those auras do so because they negatively affect those enemies. So if the Tanker or Brute turns off their offensive aura so it stops negatively affecting the targets and they don't attack the pacified target, then the power should pacify that target just fine unless the target has sufficient Placate resistance to ignore it.

 

If you do not have any auras active that affect enemies and you do not use an attack, then pacify should work just as advertised even for Brutes and Tankers. If it doesn't? Then you should probably be reporting it as a bug. If you are expecting pacify to work through a Tanker's or Brute's auras and attacks though? You're asking too much. It doesn't even work through other AT's attacks. You taunt a pacified target regardless of AT, and it will attack you.

 

(Edit: The Tanker or Brute can also use Pacify to shut up a ranged opponent for a little bit without their punchvoke/pokevoke breaking it.)

 

Now, all that aside, let's look at your suggested changes.

 

57 minutes ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

(A) Crash Threat values for a few seconds after using Pacify

If Pacify crashed the user's threat level to 0 for a few seconds, then that is time the target just stands there and does nothing while you keep smacking it. That is not how a pacify power is supposed to work. ... unless you're a CoT Succubus.... Player pacifies are meant to be broken whenever we attack or taunt the target. If you want the target to not fight back for a few seconds? Invest in Stuns and/or Holds. (Or, just have your Tanker or Brute break off fighting and pacify the target as they run away.)

 

57 minutes ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

(B) Floor target vision radius for a few seconds after using Pacify

We have blind effect powers for that. And a blinded foe cannot fight back while you stand there murdering it. Which defeats the purpose of pacify powers. Player usable pacify effects are not supposed to let your character murder targets with impunity, they are supposed to get one or more targets to leave you alone while you hide or run away. (And if the Tanker or Brute wants to go hide or run away from a single enemy? They can pacify the target as part of their doing so. This won't break the pacify effect.)

 

57 minutes ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

(C) Alter Pacify so that the actual placate is a proc: have an initial 'hit' that does nothing and then a follow-up hit that carries the payload of the effect

This won't change anything. If the Tanker or Brute is trying to leave the fight and pacifies the target, this just delays the pacification effect, reducing the effectiveness of the Tanker's or Brute's attempt to get away. If they are trying to pacify a target while fighting, then their very next attack or their active offensive aura is going to break the pacify immediately even if you try to time the pacification to occur after you just taunted the target by attacking or having an active aura.

 

Edited April 10 by Rudra

[PoptartsNinja]

IIRC Tank gauntlet adds a taunt to any attack, including pool attacks; but Brute punchvoke is explicitly scripted into Brute attacks and doesn't apply to pools, so a Brute shouldn't be re-taunting off the Pacify itself.

 

It sounds like that might be a magnitude issue, you may have stacked more taunt magnitude than pacify's mag 3 placate can counter; or if you're soloing: the activated mobs aren't going to forget you unless you hit an elevator or exit the mission.

 

You might have to do some testing, have two tanks taunt the same target and then have one pacify it to see if they switch to attacking the other tank. If that happens, it's a magnitude issue.

Edited April 10 by PoptartsNinja

[Rudra]

Gauntlet has a radius of 10 feet according to CoD. So maybe pacify a target farther away than 10 feet? Pacify has a range of 60 feet after all.

[ThatGuyCDude]

No other powers activated, no other powers used.  Target not engaged.  Skulls beating a police officer were successfully pacified.  Skulls standing idle were not: taunted by "Fury" which is the Brute PokeVoke effect.  It triggers as a proc AFTER every action, including power pools that do no damage.  Doesn't matter how far away, and it pulls the whole group regardless of which mob is the target (In the screenshot, the chopper is the one I attempted to Pacify).

There's no question the power doesn't work for these archetypes.  The question is how to *make* it work for these archetypes, as no other pool power in the game has this problem.

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

No other powers activated, no other powers used.  Target not engaged.  Skulls beating a police officer were successfully pacified.  Skulls standing idle were not: taunted by "Fury" which is the Brute PokeVoke effect.  It triggers as a proc AFTER every action, including power pools that do no damage.  Doesn't matter how far away, and it pulls the whole group regardless of which mob is the target (In the screenshot, the chopper is the one I attempted to Pacify).

There's no question the power doesn't work for these archetypes.  The question is how to *make* it work for these archetypes, as no other pool power in the game has this problem.

How far was the target Skull? If within melee range, check one outside of melee range at least 11 feet away. If the Skull was at least 11 feet away, then report this as a bug.

[Luminara]

14 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Gauntlet has a radius of 10 feet according to CoD. So maybe pacify a target farther away than 10 feet? Pacify has a range of 60 feet after all.

 

Gauntlet adds the taunt to all tanker powers, whether they're categorized as attacks or not.  Not only does it do that, if the tanker uses something like a PPP pet, Gauntlet adds taunts to all of their attacks.  Whatever power a tanker uses, Gauntlet is applied.

[ThatGuyCDude]

13 hours ago, Rudra said:

How far was the target Skull? If within melee range, check one outside of melee range at least 11 feet away. If the Skull was at least 11 feet away, then report this as a bug.

It was the full 60 feet away.  I've reported it as a bug before, in a thread from 2021:

However, there's the matter of how to fix the bug, which I was hoping to discuss.  These archetype effects are being applied as a rider to every power, and I'm not sure that can be addressed.  So what's the best means of stepping around the proc, so that the power works as intended for everybody?

Edited April 10 by ThatGuyCDude

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Gauntlet adds the taunt to all tanker powers, whether they're categorized as attacks or not.  Not only does it do that, if the tanker uses something like a PPP pet, Gauntlet adds taunts to all of their attacks.  Whatever power a tanker uses, Gauntlet is applied.

Then it sounds like Gauntlet needs to be tweaked. And even at that, it should still work fine against targets at least 26 feet away unless the Tanker is attacking the target.

Edited April 10 by Rudra
Edited to strike out comment after realizing what @Luminara actually meant.

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

It was the full 60 feet away.  I've reported it as a bug before, in a thread from last year:

However, there's the matter of how to fix the bug, which I was hoping to discuss.  These archetype effects are being applied as a rider to every power, and I'm not sure that can be addressed.  So what's the best means of stepping around the proc, so that the power works as intended for everybody?

The "fix" would be for Gauntlet to not apply to every ability. There is no reason why Gauntlet should trigger off of the Pacify power.

[Luminara]

Just now, Rudra said:

Then it sounds like Gauntlet needs to be tweaked. And even at that, it should still work fine against targets at least 26 feet away unless the Tanker is attacking the target.

 

Distance is irrelevant.  It's not a radius problem, it's not a range problem, it's Gauntlet being applied to every power tagged as owned by the tanker.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

this almost sounds like a bug