High level enemy group revamps

[Shin Magmus]

4 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

FTR, I don't play Advanced Mode stuff, do not care to, and am not commenting on the content contained therein. From some of the discussions I've seen going around it seems like it's all a completely different game from the core game, and if there's people that want to play that, more power to them. No skin off my back. 
As long as all those things remain inside Advanced Mode and don't bleed out.

"I haven't tried it but I know I don't like it."

[Eiko-chan]

1 minute ago, Shin Magmus said:

"I haven't tried it but I know I don't like it."

Yup. People do this all the time. You do this. You do not have to try things to know you don't like it. And it's really infantile to insist people have to try things - and buy things - to decide it isn't for them.

[Shin Magmus]

     Eiko-Chan, it's your topic.  If you just want to complain, you certainly can do so.  But if you don't have any experience with something, and you additionally don't have any facts about it, but you still want to complain about it based entirely on hearsay and assumptions: don't expect anyone to listen.  I've already answered everything I can relevant to the original discussion: which was that the devs are significantly more receptive to feedback during beta cycles than 4 months after the content has been out.  Other people mentioned that stuff even got changed during those cycles.  I additionally pointed out that since the NuCouncil have been live for several months now, changes based on one person's feedback are pretty unlikely.  You'd need to provide some sort of data like recorded mission times (showing how much slower the NuCouncil are now compared to their old version) to make a "case" to get the devs to even begin to evaluate making a change.  It would need to be well-reasoned and backed up by evidence.

 

    I only mentioned Advanced Mode because other people are bringing it up... again.  You can't know you don't like something without trying it first.

[Eiko-chan]

Shin, please re-read what I posted. Absolutely nothing I've said anything about is about Advanced Mode content. I explicitly said I wasn't talking about Advanced Mode.

 

And you absolutely can know you don't like something without trying it first. You know you don't like being burned by acid or fire. You know you don't like eating feces. You know you don't like being unable to breathe. None of these things are things you need to experience to know you don't like them.

 

Just like I don't need to experience even harder group content to know that I already don't like group content in this game, which is why I play solo. That way the stupid stuff I do doesn't affect other people, and the stupid stuff other people do doesn't affect me. 

Edited May 23 by Eiko-chan

[Excraft]

19 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

"I haven't tried it but I know I don't like it."

 

Interesting response.  Do you really need to try something in order to know you don't like it?  If someone offered you a stew after you reading the menu and seeing the ingredients included like festering rotted roadkill and raw sewage, you'd need to try it first to know you don't like it?

For the record here, I'm not equating any of the changes or additions to this game to rotting sewage.

[PeregrineFalcon]

8 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

 Eiko-Chan, it's your topic.  If you just want to complain, you certainly can do so.  But if you don't have any experience with something, and you additionally don't have any facts about it, but you still want to complain about it based entirely on hearsay and assumptions: don't expect anyone to listen.

I've never jumped off of a 100 story building. Am I allowed to say that I don't want to and probably wouldn't enjoy the experience?

[ZacKing]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

1) I don't know why "questioning other people" even comes up in the suggestions game forum, unless this is a specific comment along the lines of "I have a question only a dev can answer". 

 

2) I think you underestimate how infrequently /jranger is used, especially compared with the first several years of Homecoming. Frankly, often when /jranger is used, someone else almost immediately comes along and explains why the suggestion probably merited a /jranger. See "Bring back Prestige"

 

I'm not underestimating anything.  I'm speaking from personal experience.  It's not worth re-hashing in this thread, but you do have a lot of people here who throw hissy fit temper tantrums when someone questions them, questions numbers they provide or offers an opposing point of view that runs counter to their world view.  I'm happy to send you specifics via PM. 

[Shin Magmus]

     These bad-faith comparisons are genuinely hilarious.  However, there's no value in arguing with such weak points, or arguing in general on these forums.  Blindly criticize the new content all you want, but unless you offer a solution (and back up why with data) nothing will change.  Every time I make a complaint suggestion thread, I also put a proposed solution: new numbers/effects/etc.  Where are your solutions?  Please post them.

[Eiko-chan]

7 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

Where are your solutions?  Please post them.

NuCouncil should not appear until level 50. Or possibly even only in Incarnate content. 

[Shin Magmus]

> Example complaint:

NuCouncil are too tough, it has been mentioned multiple times (seen it from people in-game and on Discord too, not just here) since their buffs: "Bullet Sponges" is the term.  The unhappiness stems from the fact that fighting NuCouncil just take longer.

 

> Example solution:

Galaxy enemies lose some or all of their tankiness, in exchange for a powerful but smaller AoE attack that is telegraphed and can be avoided.  Players can just move out of the way, MMs can just move their pets out of the way.  This simultaneously fixes the issue, incorporates positive design from Advanced Mode stuff, and drives further engagement from the players in a way that they can control, rather than the way the powerful AoE Rez attack just hits a huge area instantly every time they die.

[Eiko-chan]

OMG no. "Avoid the red circle" design is that absolute worst "innovation" in MMOs and it really has absolutely no place here. Keep that shit in Advanced Mode and iTrials. 

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Shin Magmus said:

1 hour ago, Eiko-chan said:

FTR, I don't play Advanced Mode stuff, do not care to, and am not commenting on the content contained therein. From some of the discussions I've seen going around it seems like it's all a completely different game from the core game, and if there's people that want to play that, more power to them. No skin off my back. 
As long as all those things remain inside Advanced Mode and don't bleed out.

"I haven't tried it but I know I don't like it."

People can play the game however they like as long as they aren't out there harrassing others. If some players don't want anything to do with Hard Mode/Advanced Mode, that is their choice. That is pretty much why Hard Mode/Advanced Mode was made. So players that wanted a more difficult/challenging experience can have it and those that don't won't have to deal with it.

[ZacKing]

31 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

These bad-faith comparisons are genuinely hilarious. 

 

Well no, there's no bad faith comparison being made.  There's nothing wrong in pointing out the fact that your "you didn't try it, so you can't comment on it and your opinion doesn't matter" just doesn't work. 

[tidge]

33 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

NuCouncil should not appear until level 50. Or possibly even only in Incarnate content. 

 

Do either of the follow matter?

• The powers and abilities demonstrated by the NuCouncil appear in the lore well before level 50.
• With the exception of the random FREEM!, those nuPowers are not radically different from powers exhibited by other factions bosses.

[Eiko-chan]

9 minutes ago, tidge said:

Do either of the follow matter?

• The powers and abilities demonstrated by the NuCouncil appear in the lore well before level 50.
• With the exception of the random FREEM!, those nuPowers are not radically different from powers exhibited by other factions bosses.

Point 1: Among the Archvillains. Galaxies are not actual Nictus. There is a redside mission in Cap that makes this explicit - Galaxies are imbedded with Nictus fragments, not full Nictii (you serve as host to one for a brief period, gaining a Galaxy's powers, before having it extracted.) 
Point 2: Galaxy Adjutants - the Lieutenants - demonstrate the same resurrection and teleportation abilities as the Archons. Who, once again, are not Warshades/Nictus in the Lore. 

[Rudra]

11 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

Point 1: Among the Archvillains. Galaxies are not actual Nictus. There is a redside mission in Cap that makes this explicit - Galaxies are imbedded with Nictus fragments, not full Nictii (you serve as host to one for a brief period, gaining a Galaxy's powers, before having it extracted.) 

While yes, the Nictus in the Galaxies are fragments, there is only one mission in Cap that I can think of that has a Nictus fragment extracted, and that is from Dr. Shelly Percey. And the only reason why you have the Nictus extracted from you is because it is in you for so little time, while it is going to be extracted from the Galaxy you take it from is because the Galaxy is only a temporary host for the fragment, not the final host. And the fragment holder states as much. So does Dr. Percey who states you only have 90 minutes to retrieve the fragment before it permanently bonds with its host. Normally, Nictus fragments embedded in Galaxies are not removed from their host.

 

Edit: There is also a debate in the lore which to the best of my knowledge never got answered, about whether or not a Nictus fragment can grow into a full Nictus. There was apparently evidence both for and against that bit of lore, but I can't remember where it is right now.

Edited May 23 by Rudra

[Eiko-chan]

10 minutes ago, Rudra said:

 Dr. Percey who states you only have 90 minutes to retrieve the fragment before it permanently bonds with its host.

And yet if you wait out the timer, your character does not get deleted because they are now a member of the Council, controlled by the Nictus inside them. Nor do you become a Warshade. Galaxies are not Warshades (who are just Nictus that know what consent is).

[Rudra]

21 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

And yet if you wait out the timer, your character does not get deleted because they are now a member of the Council, controlled by the Nictus inside them. Nor do you become a Warshade. Galaxies are not Warshades (who are just Nictus that know what consent is).

Of course not. Do you realize how many players would be reaching for pitchforks and torches if that happened? So of course the PC won't be subjected to a mandatory transition to a Warshade character or be deleted from the player's account for suddenly becoming a Council Galaxy or suddenly be nerfed into a Council Galaxy. Game mechanic limitations and allowances for players does not change the game lore.

 

Edit: However, if you wait out the timer without retrieving the fragment, the mission is failed because the fragment bonded with its host or is transferred to its permanent host. Either of which deprives you and Dr. Percey of the window to retrieve a fragment for her to study.

Edited May 23 by Rudra

[tidge]

The nuCouncil is effectively demonstrating that they can now leverage certain "player tricks", at an appropriate mission level... whereas before, pretty much the only "player annoying" tricks were Warwolves running away, and Ascendants being untouchable. The Council was grossly under-powered considering the level range of content they appear in.

 

I continue to suspect that it is only because the Council had been seen as punching bags that they are specifically being singled out. The CoT has been briefly mentioned, but somehow their updates, like Crey before them, are not drawing attention.

[Eiko-chan]

@RudraIt's been a while since I failed that mission to see what happens, and the Wiki doesn't have the info, but I believe I remember that the Nictus dies if not extracted in time, not that it takes over.

 

1 minute ago, tidge said:

I continue to suspect that it is only because the Council had been seen as punching bags that they are specifically being singled out. The CoT has been briefly mentioned, but somehow their updates, like Crey before them, are not drawing attention.

Or, perhaps, the Circle and Crey were not tuned as highly as the Council were. 

But yes, I do maintain that the punchable fascists who are explicitly called out in game as being eminently punchable (see Marchand's New Praetorian arc) should remain eminently punchable because punching fascists is fun for the whole family. And villains too. 😁

[tidge]

They remain punchable.

 

[Rudra]

16 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

@RudraIt's been a while since I failed that mission to see what happens, and the Wiki doesn't have the info, but I believe I remember that the Nictus dies if not extracted in time, not that it takes over.

If you are talking about what happens to the fragment after your character gets it from the temporary host? That would be to explain why the fragment doesn't take over your character. If you don't even retrieve the fragment in the first place before the timer runs out? It bonds with its permanent host, which may or may not be the temporary host depending on whether or not the chosen host arrived in time to take the fragment in a more permanent manner saving the temporary host. (The temporary host is acting like an impromptu Shadow Cyst.)

 

Regardless, Council Galaxies have Nictus fragments in them that grant them some Warshade powers. And those fragments are permanent additions to them. Galaxies getting more powers so they stop being such a joke at higher levels is a good thing in my book. Buffing the Council so they aren't a joke is a good thing in my book. (I'm not a fan of Freem!, but I'm not troubled by the rest.) The Council is still very much punchable, but now they are a threat that explains why it takes player characters to beat them. I often wondered why Council (and 5th Column) super soldiers were called such when they were as dangerous as your average Hellion or Skull until you get to the wolves and vampires. The addition of the Ascendants was a step in the right direction giving the Council something that couldn't (always) be laughed off. Now high level Council are (almost) a threat. The calls for super heroes to fight them because they are too much for conventional units to deal with is finally making sense.

[Akisan]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

I continue to suspect that it is only because the Council had been seen as punching bags that they are specifically being singled out. The CoT has been briefly mentioned, but somehow their updates, like Crey before them, are not drawing attention.

 

Very possible - The Council have traditionally been the go-to group for mindless mayhem.  I could see some people preferring the original Council (with nerfed XP/drops) over the revamped group.

 

And while I missed the beta when they redid Crey (RL stuff), definitely not a fan of those changes - they went from an "Avoid/Drop to +1x3" to a very explicit "Do Not Engage" for me.  It's crazy that a group that used to just have obnoxious resistances got a bunch of buffs/debuffs/control added... with no change (straight proliferation) to those resistances. (Yeah, I'm gonna keep bringing it up. They're awful and need rebalancing.)

[Ruin Mage]

So I had to go to work and missed a few pages. I'll keep this reply short for the sake of not going in too many circles.

Circle of Thorns does not equate a WoW model. The reintroduction of Ruin, Madness, and Agony Mages (among other enemy types) is not an enforcement or evidence of this. Now if it was skewed towards spawning a lot more Ruin Mages (the deadliest of the mage bunch) than any other? I'd be more inclined to agree that the Circle changes missed. However, I'm also going to be the sort to point out Difficulty Settings are yours to tweak. You choose what you want to face.

NuCouncil should have been 45-50 only. I don't disagree there.

Excraft: I do believe that the other TFs will get their HM versions in due time. It's just not going to be every page. Right now the ones not done are LRSF, MLTF, Kahn/Baracudda (god help us all for HM Reichsman!), 3 of the Shadow Shard TFs (Dr Q is below the 50 mark, so I don't count it), and ApeMage. I'm not sure I could confidently guess at a Hard Mode ApeMage.

[Excraft]

26 minutes ago, Ruin Mage said:

god help us all for HM Reichsman!

 

Oh man, can you imagine?  LOL!  🤣  4 Star Dr. Q will be epic.