Bane Spider Training: Web Cocoon needs to be better than the Epic version.

[KaizenSoze]

Many AT gets Web Cocoon has an option in their Mace Epic. Defenders, Corruptors, Blasters, Stalkers, and Sentinels.

 

Bane's get their version as their secondary capstone power. One problem, the Epic version is better than the Bane version.

 

Sentinel, all the other AT Epic pool versions are pretty close in stats. The only notable advantage the Bane version has a faster recharge 16 vs 24. The disadvantage is  the Bane version does *no* damage and has pretty much the same hold length. The rest have a toxic dot.

 

Sentinel version:

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=epic.sentinel_mace_mastery.web_cocoon&at=sentinel

 

Not asking for any changes to the Epic versions, just want the Bane version to be worth being called a capstone power.

 

I would suggest adding damage or increasing the hold time quite a bit. The current hold is less than 2 seconds longer than the Epic versions.

[kelika2]

oo yeah smashing initial + toxic DoT

[Rudra]

Bane Spiders get a longer duration Hold (13.41 seconds versus 11.92 seconds), faster cast time (1.67 seconds versus 2 seconds), and better recharge (16 seconds versus 24 seconds). So it isn't just damage and recharge that differs.

 

Edited August 31 by Rudra
Edited to remove unnecessary apostrophe.

[Lazarillo]

Speaking of Bane Spiders and epic pools, either Shatter or Shatter Armor needs an alternate animation, so that they can have some more variety.

[KaizenSoze]

24 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Bane Spiders get a longer duration Hold (13.41 seconds versus 11.92 seconds), faster cast time (1.67 seconds versus 2 seconds), and better recharge (16 seconds versus 24 seconds). So it isn't just damage and recharge that differs.

 

Those are differences without distinction in terms of game play. I have tried many slotting variants of Web Cocoon and it's just not good enough for a capstone power. And at least the Epic version does damage.

 

How many builds have tried using Web Cocoon? I have about a dozen beta builds. This just a repeat of the Wide Area Web Grenade vs Web Envelope issue that was fixed in page 7 by greatly increasing the radius and target cap.

 

Page 7 note:
Wide Area Web Grenade: cooldown decreased from 30s to 20s. End cost increased from 7.28 to 15.6. Radius increased from 10 ft to 25 ft. Target cap increased from 10 to 16.

[Rudra]

56 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Those are differences without distinction in terms of game play. I have tried many slotting variants of Web Cocoon and it's just not good enough for a capstone power. And at least the Epic version does damage.

 

How many builds have tried using Web Cocoon? I have about a dozen beta builds. This just a repeat of the Wide Area Web Grenade vs Web Envelope issue that was fixed in page 7 by greatly increasing the radius and target cap.

 

Page 7 note:
Wide Area Web Grenade: cooldown decreased from 30s to 20s. End cost increased from 7.28 to 15.6. Radius increased from 10 ft to 25 ft. Target cap increased from 10 to 16.

And if the devs decide to tweak it, sure. However, those elements still go into their calculations for balance. So they can't just be disregarded. And whether you think Web Cocoon is a good enough level 28 power is strictly a matter of opinion. If you want to see it changed, you're going to need to provide better data than "I think only getting a 1.49 second longer duration Hold, .33 second better cast time, and 8 second better recharge isn't enough to offset the lack of minor damage the Patron Pool Power version gets". You're going to need play data.

[KaizenSoze]

Follow up thought. Raise the hold duration and add a similarly long immobilization feature to it.

 

There is precedent for this, Plant Manipulation: Vines, and that is an AOE.

[Uun]

I agree that a primary/secondary version of a power should be better than an epic version. Part of what you're seeing is differences in AT modifiers. All versions of Web Cocoon have a hold duration of 10 * Ranged_Immobilize. You see differences in hold duration because ATs have different values for Ranged_Immobilize. For comparison, controller ST holds have a duration of 12 * Ranged_Immobilize and defender ST holds (in their primaries) have a duration of 8 * Ranged_Immobilize. So the epic version of Web Cocoon (and other epic holds) is also superior to the holds defenders get in their primaries. Clearly there's an imbalance here. My recommendation would be to increase defender/corruptor ST holds to 10 * Ranged_Immobilize and reduce epic holds to 8 * Ranged_Immobilize. In this context, the 10 * Ranged_Immobilize duration for SOAs would make a lot more sense.

 

The second piece of the imbalance is that the epic versions have DoT while the SoA version does not. I think it would be appropriate to add a DoT (or additional secondary effect) to the SoA version to make it superior to the epic version.

[KaizenSoze]

2 hours ago, Uun said:

I agree that a primary/secondary version of a power should be better than an epic version. Part of what you're seeing is differences in AT modifiers. All versions of Web Cocoon have a hold duration of 10 * Ranged_Immobilize. You see differences in hold duration because ATs have different values for Ranged_Immobilize. For comparison, controller ST holds have a duration of 12 * Ranged_Immobilize and defender ST holds (in their primaries) have a duration of 8 * Ranged_Immobilize. So the epic version of Web Cocoon (and other epic holds) is also superior to the holds defenders get in their primaries. Clearly there's an imbalance here. My recommendation would be to increase defender/corruptor ST holds to 10 * Ranged_Immobilize and reduce epic holds to 8 * Ranged_Immobilize. In this context, the 10 * Ranged_Immobilize duration for SOAs would make a lot more sense.

 

The second piece of the imbalance is that the epic versions have DoT while the SoA version does not. I think it would be appropriate to add a DoT (or additional secondary effect) to the SoA version to make it superior to the epic version.

 I think you meant hold, not Immobilize. Web Cocoon only holds and debuffs across all ATs.

[Uun]

3 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

 I think you meant hold, not Immobilize. Web Cocoon only holds and debuffs across all ATs.

There is no Ranged_Hold modifier in the game. All holds in the game use the Ranged_Immobilize modifier to determine duration.