Regeneration Suggestion for Instant Healing: Toggle Self Heal

[Solarias]

16 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Given the forum feedback I've read about Regen over the years I suspect a lot of folks would be happier if Instant Healing were a toggle again. However, I don't think that the devs really want to just switch it without changing the amount of regen it grants because it would be too powerful.

 

I didn't know that HoTs were a thing in CoH. Isn't that just basically just want +Regen is? Also, making it a HoT would mean the name wouldn't really be descriptive of what the power actually does. By having it just instantly heal 25% of each hit that was taken it lives up to its name without being affected by regen debuffs. My understanding is that lack of regen debuff resist is one of the many problems with Regen.

 

Yes I only just returned to the game on Homecoming a while back so I haven't trolled the forums but my original idea was to bring back a toggle.

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking about Regeneration and Instant Healing so apologies if some feel like it's rehashing old ground.

[Solarias]

16 hours ago, Rudra said:

HoTs can be found in Nature Affinity, the Presence pool's Unrelenting, and a few other locations. For just keeping you alive right now, it is superior to improved regeneration rates in many cases. Unlike regeneration though, it is a heal so regeneration debuffs don't affect it and its heals are static but able to be enhanced rather than being a derivative of your max HP. So thematically it is still regeneration, just a different form. (Edit: Well, Unrelenting's HoT seems to be based on max HP, so I guess there are different types of HoTs?)

 

As for the name? It fits as well as a +600% regeneration boost does. Except that as a HoT, you would get that immediate up front heal and maintain additional heals for the rest of the duration. (So I think it fits better name-wise.)

 

I don't currently have any /Regeneration characters, but my most commonly available friend in the game primaries with one, so while I don't personally have a stake in the conversation, I'm trying to keep her in mind as far as this discussion goes.

 

 

Fair points about a HoT being useful.  I agree with the other guy though who said it really doesn't feel like a HoT would fit the name Instant Healing.

 

Is that a silly reason to disagree with a good idea?  Maybe.  But I'm a stickler for names lol.

 

Now, what sounds like it could be a good name for a HoT is Reconstruction.  I didn't really intend to start up a debate about revamping other powers in this thread but so be it.

 

So, Reconstruction for HoT, Dull Pain for immediate heal + max HP, and Instant Healing for healing per hit taken? What do you think of that?

[Uun]

2 hours ago, Solarias said:

Maybe a revamped MoG could have a -heal (from outside sources)? It would mean you'd truly be on your own while it lasted, increasing the risk but making the reward all the sweeter.

This is how it used to work before it was revamped in 2007.  Moment of Glory was originally a power which prevented all regeneration, took away almost all Hit Points, made the character immune to healing, and lasted for 195 seconds. After that, the buff of the power faded, leaving you with little health and no regeneration for a short while. Crey Paragon Protectors and a few other foes still have this version.

[Troo]

4 hours ago, Solarias said:

Yes I only just returned to the game on Homecoming a while back so I haven't trolled the forums but my original idea was to bring back a toggle.

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking about Regeneration and Instant Healing so apologies if some feel like it's rehashing old ground.

 

Making suggestions is good. (Good Bad Ugly, it's just a suggestion after all)

Some folks want a revamp.

Tear it down and rebuild it.. blah blah blah.
Screw exiting players who invested time to learn it, like their characters, and only request some minor tweaks.

Disregard that players have shown current Regeneration can tackle some of the hardest content.

A revamp could also change Regeneration to be same-same rather than the something different it is now. Besides, any revamp will be balanced, so something that 'sounds' great at first will have tradeoffs. What we will get will have a narrow design that guards against being OP. Folks will have to play it the new way.

How many of the folks who want a revamp actually play Regeneration?.. versus wanting to change it to what they do play.

Some folks just want a couple tweaks.

• -regen debuffs has been identified as a pain point. With some suggesting that Regeneration should have the same regen debuff resistance as Super Reflexes does for defense debuff resistance (DDR). (I'd take this)
• -recharge can mess with heal availability. Some rech debuff resistance could help, maybe 40-50% for a set that is more reactionary than most. Additional is available through IO set bonuses. This could also help with the learning curve since the heal availabilities can vary greatly between using hasten or being under high -rech pressure. (I'd take this)
• Psi Hole could be addressed. Nothing crazy which would require trade offs.
• Scaling resists - This would be amazing but likely would require trade offs I wouldn't want.
• Moment of Glory (MoG) is a good power but it is very short, 15 seconds, 3+ seconds of which get gobbled up activating it. 3+ sec when a player might need it most. So it gets skipped. Shortening the activation penalty to a more reasonable number and allow something closer to the advertised 15 seconds could be helpful and minor coding. (I'd take this)

 

Some folks want Instant Healing to be a toggle again.

I get this. We are likely never getting the old version back as it was at the time determined to be OP. Would it be OP now? It's not hard to argue that it would not be OP and would generally not vault Regeneration into the top spot or even over most other sets.
Would I take a toggle? Sure, but I don't need it.
Instant Healing is currently available on a high recharge build every ~180s for 90s duration. 1/2 time. Selecting a power once every 180s is not very clicky.

 

If you want links to similar discussions or regen builds feel free to ask.

 

@Solarias Your suggestion would appear to work great against minions and maybe luts but not so well against bosses EBs and AVs. I like that it is reactive to the situation. It would maybe work against large mobs of soft targets. I'm not sure how it helps against hard targets or for single target specialists.

My current Instant Healing is typically around 1,000% (~60hp/sec on a brute and 50 on a stalker) Your scenario with big mobs might be more hp/sec and would have a player keep smaller targets while focusing on harder targets. Starting to feel a little willpower-ish.

 

 

 

Edited September 12 by Troo
not done but have to go

[arcane]

Anyone that skips the current iteration of Moment of Glory is a bit of an idiot. Are there actually people like that.

[TheMoneyMaker]

3 hours ago, Troo said:

 

Some folks want a revamp.

Some folks just want a couple tweaks.

Some folks want Instant Healing to be a toggle again.

 

You left out: "Some folks just want it to stay broken because trying to fix it sounds like too much trouble."

[Troo]

5 hours ago, arcane said:

Anyone that skips the current iteration of Moment of Glory is a bit of an idiot. Are there actually people like that.

 

Yep, I guess people skip it simply because it only last 10-11 seconds after the long animation.. or think it has a crash.. or think it is a waste of a power pick?

Data mining could reveal if it is trooly skipped by a lot of characters.

 

I guess folks ignore that it is crashless while having +Def (except Tox and Psi), +Res (except Psi), +Recovery, and def/res to Knock, Repel, Held, Stunned, Sleep, Immob.

It is a debuff/mezz counter/eraser.

[Enamel_32]

Ooh, another regen thread! Here's my 2 cents:

1.  Changing a power from a click to a toggle would at the very least probably require a respec, which is going to be annoying. Don't get me wrong, I'd respec my brute and probably enjoy it a little more but I would have to do some thinking about the whole thing and I can't speak for other regen players.
2. I've always wondered why the click powers have no passive benefits. Like sure, it's exhausting to go full Instant Healing, but if you've learned how to Instantly Heal, why is it an on/off switch?

Also, @Troo, excellent write-up!

[Troo]

9 hours ago, Enamel_32 said:

Also, @Troo, excellent write-up!

 

Well thanks. To be clear I just compiled what lots of different folks have chimed in with over time and likely left a bunch out..

[srmalloy]

On 9/9/2024 at 5:42 AM, Solarias said:

I would like to suggest a change to one of Regeneration's powers.  I don't have any idea how to balance it with numbers, this is a purely conceptual suggestion.

 

Instant Healing Toggle: Self Heal (Special)

As long as you keep this power active your wounds heal almost as quickly as you take them.  Heal a minor amount each time you are damaged.  This healing can occur only once per damage source.  

 

The idea is to give Regeneration back a toggle that isn't just more . . . well, regeneration, but still focused on self-healing.

 

The amount of the heal and the mechanics of how it scales with enhancements I have no immediate insight on.  My idea is to make it something that feels strong when surrounded by weak enemies dealing minor damage, but still not able to fully mitigate the damage of stronger enemies without using other tools. 

I've made this type of suggestion before, where Instant Healing is changed from a click that gives a big boost to regeneration to a toggle that makes incoming damage work similarly to how Spectral Wounds does. Spectral Wounds does X amount of damage, then if the target is still alive a short while later, Y amount of that damage heals back. Instant Healing would work in a similar way -- you take damage, and a second or so later, an enhanceable fraction of that damage 'instantly' heals. I'm not sure how the internal mechanics would work in the game code, but it would add a step before damage is applied to the character where a heal based on the incoming damage gets put in the event queue with a short delay. So if you had your IH slotted to bring its heal to 60%, and you took 100 points of damage (after any Resistance was applied), a short time later (a second or thereabouts), you'd be healed for 60 points. The queued heal only happens once for each time you're damaged, so a 60% heal from IH acts like 60% resistance with the proviso that you have to survive taking all the damage first, before IH will restore you. Depending on how the power gets balanced, the entire amount could be enhanceable, or there could be enhanceable and unenhanceable parts.

[Solarias]

On 9/12/2024 at 1:38 PM, Troo said:

Some folks want Instant Healing to be a toggle again.

I get this. We are likely never getting the old version back as it was at the time determined to be OP. Would it be OP now? It's not hard to argue that it would not be OP and would generally not vault Regeneration into the top spot or even over most other sets.
Would I take a toggle? Sure, but I don't need it.
Instant Healing is currently available on a high recharge build every ~180s for 90s duration. 1/2 time. Selecting a power once every 180s is not very clicky.

You're right.  I think what I meant wasn't "clicky" so much as "reactive".  With four powers meant to help save you when the single toggle and passives aren't enough, it feels like I'm just waiting for something to go wrong and hope I react in time.

 

Is this working as intended?  I guess it could be one way to make the set unique.

[Solarias]

On 9/12/2024 at 1:48 PM, arcane said:

Anyone that skips the current iteration of Moment of Glory is a bit of an idiot. Are there actually people like that.

 I actually like it too, it just feels like a lot to manage with the other defensive click powers.  On top of whatever attack set you may have.

[Solarias]

On 9/13/2024 at 2:55 PM, Enamel_32 said:

Ooh, another regen thread! Here's my 2 cents:

1.  Changing a power from a click to a toggle would at the very least probably require a respec, which is going to be annoying. Don't get me wrong, I'd respec my brute and probably enjoy it a little more but I would have to do some thinking about the whole thing and I can't speak for other regen players.
2. I've always wondered why the click powers have no passive benefits. Like sure, it's exhausting to go full Instant Healing, but if you've learned how to Instantly Heal, why is it an on/off switch?

Also, @Troo, excellent write-up!

Good point, I never thought of it that way.  It's kinda funny.

[Solarias]

On 9/14/2024 at 6:07 PM, srmalloy said:

I've made this type of suggestion before, where Instant Healing is changed from a click that gives a big boost to regeneration to a toggle that makes incoming damage work similarly to how Spectral Wounds does. Spectral Wounds does X amount of damage, then if the target is still alive a short while later, Y amount of that damage heals back. Instant Healing would work in a similar way -- you take damage, and a second or so later, an enhanceable fraction of that damage 'instantly' heals. I'm not sure how the internal mechanics would work in the game code, but it would add a step before damage is applied to the character where a heal based on the incoming damage gets put in the event queue with a short delay. So if you had your IH slotted to bring its heal to 60%, and you took 100 points of damage (after any Resistance was applied), a short time later (a second or thereabouts), you'd be healed for 60 points. The queued heal only happens once for each time you're damaged, so a 60% heal from IH acts like 60% resistance with the proviso that you have to survive taking all the damage first, before IH will restore you. Depending on how the power gets balanced, the entire amount could be enhanceable, or there could be enhanceable and unenhanceable parts.

I've probably over-said it but gonna say again, I don't know how to balance the math.  But I know just enough to feel dangerous.

 

I like your example, but in your percentage based example I immediately wonder: if the 60% healing applied after resists, doesn't that make it *worse* the better your other defenses are?  For example, if I have 0% resist and take 100 damage, 60% healing would give me back 60 points.  But if I have 50% resists and take 100 damage, I only take 50 of that in reality.  So 60% healing now gives me 30 health?  Isn't that negative scaling where my power gets worse the better my other powers get?

[srmalloy]

2 hours ago, Solarias said:

I like your example, but in your percentage based example I immediately wonder: if the 60% healing applied after resists, doesn't that make it *worse* the better your other defenses are?  For example, if I have 0% resist and take 100 damage, 60% healing would give me back 60 points.  But if I have 50% resists and take 100 damage, I only take 50 of that in reality.  So 60% healing now gives me 30 health?  Isn't that negative scaling where my power gets worse the better my other powers get?

Plot it out fully -- say you have 500 HP, and you take 100 damage. With a 60% IH, you'd drop to 400 HP, then 'instantly' heal back to 460 after the delay. If you have 50% resist and 60% IH, you'd drop to 450 damage, then 'instantly' heal back to 480 after the delay. Yes, you're getting less benefit from your IH, but that's because you're not taking as much damage in the first place, so there's less for it to heal.