Regeneration Suggestion for Instant Healing: Toggle Self Heal

[Solarias]

 

 

I would like to suggest a change to one of Regeneration's powers.  I don't have any idea how to balance it with numbers, this is a purely conceptual suggestion.

 

Instant Healing Toggle: Self Heal (Special)

As long as you keep this power active your wounds heal almost as quickly as you take them.  Heal a minor amount each time you are damaged.  This healing can occur only once per damage source.  

 

The idea is to give Regeneration back a toggle that isn't just more . . . well, regeneration, but still focused on self-healing.

 

The amount of the heal and the mechanics of how it scales with enhancements I have no immediate insight on.  My idea is to make it something that feels strong when surrounded by weak enemies dealing minor damage, but still not able to fully mitigate the damage of stronger enemies without using other tools. 

 

How to translate into numbers I don't know.

 

 

I recently leveled a Regeneration scrapper to 50 on Homecoming.  I didn't play one on live but I did see it played before the big nerf and after.  I was expecting it to be a bit different than what I remembered in its glory days, but was surprised by how clicky it is now.

 

As for why Instant Healing?  Several reasons.  One, it's in the name.  Two, I think this is the one that used to be the overpowered toggle, so feels right to return it to its toggle roots.

 

EDIT: I made a small edit to my original suggestion.  I thought it was evident based on how I phrased the mechanic that the damage source and healing go hand in hand, but I figured I'd clarify.  

 

Unlike regeneration mechanic which just keeps on healing until you are back to full (or dead), this mechanic would be more of a once per source.  For example, take 1 damage, heal 10.  Great! Take 100 damage, still heal 10.  Not so great.

What are your thoughts? 

Edited September 9 by Solarias

[Glacier Peak]

You either die a Hero (then use Revive!) or live long enough that damage becomes irrelevant.

[Uun]

This is the patch note from Issue 5 (8/31/2005) when Instant Healing was changed from a toggle to a click:

• Changed Regeneration/Instant Healing from a Toggle Power to a Click power. Gave it a new animation so it activates faster.
  • The power was simply too strong as a toggle that could be kept on all the time. Rather than further increase the end cost or decrease the healing ability of the power, we made it a click power to be used when really needed. As a click with a long recharge, its Endurance cost can remain low, and its Regeneration boost can stay high.

You offer no reasoning as to why this rationale is no longer correct. Over the past 19 years, this discussion has taken place numerous times and the horse is not only dead, it's buried and decomposed. I don't dispute that Regeneration is the worst performing armor set and needs a revamp, but your suggestion has zero chance of being implemented.

[Solarias]

37 minutes ago, Uun said:

This is the patch note from Issue 5 (8/31/2005) when Instant Healing was changed from a toggle to a click:

• Changed Regeneration/Instant Healing from a Toggle Power to a Click power. Gave it a new animation so it activates faster.
  • The power was simply too strong as a toggle that could be kept on all the time. Rather than further increase the end cost or decrease the healing ability of the power, we made it a click power to be used when really needed. As a click with a long recharge, its Endurance cost can remain low, and its Regeneration boost can stay high.

You offer no reasoning as to why this rationale is no longer correct. Over the past 19 years, this discussion has taken place numerous times and the horse is not only dead, it's buried and decomposed. I don't dispute that Regeneration is the worst performing armor set and needs a revamp, but your suggestion has zero chance of being implemented.

 

Thanks for sharing.  I haven't followed the game for 19 years so no idea what you feel is overly debated.

 

My idea isn't just to turn it back into a permanent regeneration toggle, which is what I understand it was before.  If the very fact that regeneration has a toggle of any sort is somehow game breaking, then how is it not game breaking far all other sets with toggles?  From what I understand, what was game breaking was the high amount of constant healing especially when considered I believe it was before enhancement diversification. 

 

As stated in my suggestion, I start off with the assumption that my idea would be strong with weak enemies but fall off with stronger ones. I don't see how you see that as the same thing but okay, thanks for your input.

 

I also find it a bit amusing that a set being stronger is somehow game breaking, especially in today's environment.  Players deliberately try to build their characters as strong as possible with the tools they have.  I've seen Blasters who seem pretty much immune to all damage from tons of enemies, let alone actual melee power sets.

Edited September 9 by Solarias

[Uun]

There's nothing game breaking about toggles. Regeneration does in fact have a toggle, Integration. It also has 3 auto powers. If your idea isn't to turn Instant Healing back into a permanent regeneration toggle, you need to provide details as to how you propose the power be changed. Currently, regeneration is all Instant Healing does.

 

Super-high levels of regeneration aren't particularly useful on their own. While fine for mitigating steady streams of continuous damage, they fail against spikes of burst damage. You need resistance, defense or absorb shields to mitigate spike damage. This is why hybrid armors like Radiation and Willpower are better performers. Rather than changing Instant Healing back to a toggle, I would rather see it replaced with something like Particle Shielding or Ablative Carapace.

[Solarias]

2 hours ago, Uun said:

There's nothing game breaking about toggles. Regeneration does in fact have a toggle, Integration. It also has 3 auto powers. If your idea isn't to turn Instant Healing back into a permanent regeneration toggle, you need to provide details as to how you propose the power be changed. Currently, regeneration is all Instant Healing does.

 

Super-high levels of regeneration aren't particularly useful on their own. While fine for mitigating steady streams of continuous damage, they fail against spikes of burst damage. You need resistance, defense or absorb shields to mitigate spike damage. This is why hybrid armors like Radiation and Willpower are better performers. Rather than changing Instant Healing back to a toggle, I would rather see it replaced with something like Particle Shielding or Ablative Carapace.

 

Based on your response, I don't think you actually read my post beyond the title?

[Psyonico]

This suggestion would be really hard to balance for.  Even though it is an interesting concept, I feel it would either be too weak as to be ineffective or too strong and be overpowered.

 

Spike damage is Regen's weakness, I don't see how this would help that.

[Solarias]

19 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

This suggestion would be really hard to balance for.  Even though it is an interesting concept, I feel it would either be too weak as to be ineffective or too strong and be overpowered.

 

Spike damage is Regen's weakness, I don't see how this would help that.

True about balance, which is why I tried to emphasize I have no idea how to balance the numbers, it's just a concept.

 

About the weakness of Regen . . . I'm actually fine with that.  Most powersets seem to have a recognizable weakness.  If spike damage is Regeneration's, so be it.

 

What I think I'm trying to address with my suggestion is the "feeling" of clickiness.  Feelings are hard to address, obviously.  There is no mathematical formula for it.

[Jack Spanky]

23 hours ago, Solarias said:

 

Based on your response, I don't think you actually read my post beyond the title?

 

Some people just live to argue, pay them no mind.

 

I for one actually like where you're coming from, because homogenization of power sets should be avoided and Regen is already about as different as you can get from any other defense set. This kind of thinking got us the Absorb mechanic.

[Gobbledigook]

There could be some simple improvements to the set to buff it a little.

 

Some ideas...(not necessarily all at once and not necessarily good ideas 🙃)

 

Add more regeneration debuff resistance.

 

Add endurance/recovery debuff resistance to Quick Recovery.

 

Add a scaling +resist buff to Resilience as health drops, similar to Super Reflexes. Adaptive Resilience.

 

Remove Revive and turn Moment of glory into a power that works when health drops below zero. Effectively allowing you to cheat death and be buffed for a duration. It would have a long cooldown still. This would also free up a slot for another power and maybe allow faster play without worrying as much about clicking the power in time. 

 

 Add 15% +recharge and some +to hit or +damage, also some slow resistance and call it Athleticism as an extra power for example.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Solarias]

19 hours ago, Jack Spanky said:

 

Some people just live to argue, pay them no mind.

 

I for one actually like where you're coming from, because homogenization of power sets should be avoided and Regen is already about as different as you can get from any other defense set. This kind of thinking got us the Absorb mechanic.

Right, I know my suggestion seems weird but it is just a concept based around some possible themes centered around "regeneration" and "healing".  Sure, the obvious solutions to regeneration are to make it more like every other defense set and give it more defense and resist.  But then it just becomes another Willpower/Bio.  If keeping it unique means it isn't top tier I'm okay with that.

[Solarias]

13 hours ago, Gobbledigook said:

There could be some simple improvements to the set to buff it a little.

 

Some ideas...(not necessarily all at once and not necessarily good ideas 🙃)

 

Add more regeneration debuff resistance.

 

Add endurance/recovery debuff resistance to Quick Recovery.

Personally as a player I like the idea of debuff resistance in the set.  However, trying to think like a game developer, I wonder if there's a reason it's not there, since it's so obvious.

 

First thought would be (in PVE at least) maybe regeneration debuff isn't so common, so it could not worth it.  As for endurance drain, the few mobs that do have it are extremely noteworthy for it (I'm looking at you, Malta Sapper) and a terror to all players, so maybe they want to keep that fear?

 

I can't speak for PvP, I don't play it.  It was broken in live and doesn't seem any different now. 

13 hours ago, Gobbledigook said:

 

Add a scaling +resist buff to Resilience as health drops, similar to Super Reflexes. Adaptive Resilience.

 

Again as a player I sorta like this.  I like how it would scale at lower levels, so it's not something to be relied on to keep at full health. 

 

The more I think of it the more I like it.  Keeping your health low but balanced might actually become part of the uniqueness of Regeneration.  Instead of being an immovable wall who's health never moves, Regen could be the one who seems to hover on the brink of death but just . . . won't . . . die!  Like how the old MoG used to be, but not so powerful and more sustainable.

13 hours ago, Gobbledigook said:

 

Remove Revive and turn Moment of glory into a power that works when health drops below zero. Effectively allowing you to cheat death and be buffed for a duration. It would have a long cooldown still. This would also free up a slot for another power and maybe allow faster play without worrying as much about clicking the power in time. 

 

My personal opinion is I like Revive.  I actually get it in almost every defensive set that has it.  I have it on my Willpower tank and Phoenix on my fire brute.  It saves carrying wakies and is actually better because of the window of invulnerability.  Avoids that whole worry about weather to revive while surrounded by mobs and not being able to toggle up fast enough.

 

That said, I understand alot of people view it as skippable.

13 hours ago, Gobbledigook said:

 

 Add 15% +recharge and some +to hit or +damage, also some slow resistance and call it Athleticism as an extra power for example.

I'm not sure I personally see how this fits in with the theme of Regeneration, or what is supposed to address.  Is it supposed to make the set a little more offensive?

13 hours ago, Gobbledigook said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gobbledigook]

2 hours ago, Solarias said:

 Add 15% +recharge and some +to hit or +damage, also some slow resistance and call it Athleticism as an extra power for example.

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I'm not sure I personally see how this fits in with the theme of Regeneration, or what is supposed to address.  Is it supposed to make the set a little more offensive?

 

It could be anything really. Just going off what i have read from other discussions in the past. +recharge and +to hit because of peek fitness due to regeneration was the idea.

 

They could probably still attach a revive to the Mog when out of combat for x seconds and it is off cooldown, so as not to fully lose it.

 

Some players have mentioned too many clickies in the set hence the MoG change.

[Solarias]

26 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

It could be anything really. Just going off what i have read from other discussions in the past. +recharge and +to hit because of peek fitness due to regeneration was the idea.

 

They could probably still attach a revive to the Mog when out of combat for x seconds and it is off cooldown, so as not to fully lose it.

 

Some players have mentioned too many clickies in the set hence the MoG change.

Here's a thought: what if Regen gained +recharge as health went down.  Kinda like your stacking resist idea.

 

It would mean that there is actually an incentive to have your health dip down, almost the opposite of every other defensive set.  Balance between gaining speed and getting one-shot might give Regen a unique feel and reason for it to be so clicky.

[Rudra]

6 minutes ago, Solarias said:

Here's a thought: what if Regen gained +recharge as health went down.  Kinda like your stacking resist idea.

 

It would mean that there is actually an incentive to have your health dip down, almost the opposite of every other defensive set.  Balance between gaining speed and getting one-shot might give Regen a unique feel and reason for it to be so clicky.

Blaster's original inherent Defiance worked in a similar way, except your damage went up as your health went down. It made for a lot of dead Blasters and a lot of angry Blasters when any teammate healed them. (So there is a reason an approach like that was abandoned.)

[lemming]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Blaster's original inherent Defiance worked in a similar way, except your damage went up as your health went down. It made for a lot of dead Blasters and a lot of angry Blasters when any teammate healed them. (So there is a reason an approach like that was abandoned.)

Yea.   I think it only works with more contained things like the scaling resist.   Maybe a faster regen rate would be alright.

 

The times I run into trouble with my regen brute is regen debuffs and slows.   Scaling debuff resists if not straight debuff protection?

[PeregrineFalcon]

I wonder if the devs could change it into a toggle that instantly heals 25% of each hit taken. So it lives up to its name and also acts as a type of regen that isn't affected by regen debuffs.

[Rudra]

34 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I wonder if the devs could change it into a toggle that instantly heals 25% of each hit taken. So it lives up to its name and also acts as a type of regen that isn't affected by regen debuffs.

Then why not just make it a weak HoT instead if going that route?

 

Edit: This would leave it a click, but make it more of a clutch power for when things go wrong. An existing example is Unrelenting.

 

Edited September 11 by Rudra

[Uun]

6 hours ago, Solarias said:

First thought would be (in PVE at least) maybe regeneration debuff isn't so common, so it could not worth it. 

Regen debuffs are very common at higher levels. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

56 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Then why not just make it a weak HoT instead if going that route?

 

Edit: This would leave it a click, but make it more of a clutch power for when things go wrong. An existing example is Unrelenting.

Given the forum feedback I've read about Regen over the years I suspect a lot of folks would be happier if Instant Healing were a toggle again. However, I don't think that the devs really want to just switch it without changing the amount of regen it grants because it would be too powerful.

 

I didn't know that HoTs were a thing in CoH. Isn't that just basically just want +Regen is? Also, making it a HoT would mean the name wouldn't really be descriptive of what the power actually does. By having it just instantly heal 25% of each hit that was taken it lives up to its name without being affected by regen debuffs. My understanding is that lack of regen debuff resist is one of the many problems with Regen.

[Rudra]

27 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Given the forum feedback I've read about Regen over the years I suspect a lot of folks would be happier if Instant Healing were a toggle again. However, I don't think that the devs really want to just switch it without changing the amount of regen it grants because it would be too powerful.

 

I didn't know that HoTs were a thing in CoH. Isn't that just basically just want +Regen is? Also, making it a HoT would mean the name wouldn't really be descriptive of what the power actually does. By having it just instantly heal 25% of each hit that was taken it lives up to its name without being affected by regen debuffs. My understanding is that lack of regen debuff resist is one of the many problems with Regen.

HoTs can be found in Nature Affinity, the Presence pool's Unrelenting, and a few other locations. For just keeping you alive right now, it is superior to improved regeneration rates in many cases. Unlike regeneration though, it is a heal so regeneration debuffs don't affect it and its heals are static but able to be enhanced rather than being a derivative of your max HP. So thematically it is still regeneration, just a different form. (Edit: Well, Unrelenting's HoT seems to be based on max HP, so I guess there are different types of HoTs?)

 

As for the name? It fits as well as a +600% regeneration boost does. Except that as a HoT, you would get that immediate up front heal and maintain additional heals for the rest of the duration. (So I think it fits better name-wise.)

 

I don't currently have any /Regeneration characters, but my most commonly available friend in the game primaries with one, so while I don't personally have a stake in the conversation, I'm trying to keep her in mind as far as this discussion goes.

 

Edited September 11 by Rudra

[Solarias]

19 hours ago, Rudra said:

Blaster's original inherent Defiance worked in a similar way, except your damage went up as your health went down. It made for a lot of dead Blasters and a lot of angry Blasters when any teammate healed them. (So there is a reason an approach like that was abandoned.)

 

Oh yeah true. 

 

Maybe a revamped MoG could have a -heal (from outside sources)? It would mean you'd truly be on your own while it lasted, increasing the risk but making the reward all the sweeter.

 

Also might confuse any empathy healers, though lol

[Solarias]

18 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I wonder if the devs could change it into a toggle that instantly heals 25% of each hit taken. So it lives up to its name and also acts as a type of regen that isn't affected by regen debuffs.

 

I'm scared of suggesting the percentage route myself.  Like I said I don't know how to do the math but it just feels like percentages are easy to make overpowered.  For example, if you had 25% healing for each hit taken, but had 75% resist, would you be 100% immune to the damage?  It feels like there would need to either be a much smaller percentage, or a cap, or something.

[Solarias]

17 hours ago, Rudra said:

Then why not just make it a weak HoT instead if going that route?

 

Edit: This would leave it a click, but make it more of a clutch power for when things go wrong. An existing example is Unrelenting.

 

For the purpose of my original suggestion about Instant Healing, I wanted to move away from a click to a toggle.  

 

If looked at in the larger scheme of things, there's a lot that could be done.  Which is I guess part of the reason why nothing has been done maybe lol

[Solarias]

17 hours ago, Uun said:

Regen debuffs are very common at higher levels. 

 

Oh okay good to know, thank you.  I only just got to 50 on my Regen scrapper so I probably haven't encountered it yet.