MM primary also with matching secondary? (best synergy)

[benai]

Hallo,

 

after a longer break of playing CoH I am currently back and back to play MMs.

 

My current question is, is it only a good idea to match primary with secondary that have matching resist or def builds?

I know that MMs are McFrankslot Chaddingtons but is it better and least annoying to pair def+def/resist+resist with each other or is a mixture also a good option without the need of even more frankenslotting?

 

You have your 6 must use auras:

 

2 x +5% defense to all

1 x  +10% aoe defense

2 x +10% resistance to all

1 x +15% resistance + pet regen

 

which is combined:

  - 10% defense to all + 10% to aoe defense

  - 35% resistance

 

Defensive primaries:

Ninja (5 melee, 1 ranged), Beast (melee), Robots (ranged + def buff for MM)

 

Resistent primaries:

Demons (melee + resist buff for MM), Necros (5 melee, 1 ranged), Mercs (ranged)

 

mixed primaries:

Thugs (1 melee, 5 ranged) - basically Def from Enforcers Leadership Auras only Bruiser (Melee) has noteworthy resistance

 

 

Defensive secondaries:

Cold, Force Field, Time, Traps, Dark, Empathy (single target Def Buff)

 

Resistant secondaries:

Nature, Sonic, Thermal, Electrical, Pain

 

mixed secondaries:

Marine

 

Debuff or Buff secondaries:

Debuff: Poison, Radiation, Trick Arrow

Buff: Kinetics (Speed, Damage, Endurance)

Attack: Storm (sorta Def)

Edited October 25 by benai
missing secondaries and mismatching a secondary

[Neiska]

Complimentary pairings are good, but others can be just as good too.

 

Robots/EA can be fantastic, even though one is defense and the other is resist.

 

Robots/Dark is another great pairing.

 

Demons/dark, demons and thugs pair with just about everything.

 

/Time goes well with any pet set too.

 

 I think it might be more important to sit and plan out a build, so you can get an idea of what your final values will be. And some things like debuff numbers aren’t always obvious either.

 

Anyway, tldr is you can make any pairing “work.” The biggest differences will be in play style, and how high of a difficulty you can solo. But don’t forget, sometimes the builds that don’t solo well, can prove to be some of the best support on a team too, especially on hard modes where debuffing is often what sets the tone of the team.

[Maelwys]

  

11 hours ago, benai said:

My current question is, is it only a good idea to match primary with secondary that have matching resist or def builds?

 

Nope.

The biggest thing is getting enemy ToHit chance floored against your pets; which can be attained via a combination of +Defense Buffs and -ToHit debuffs.
Robotics and Thugs and Ninjas can achieve that with almost any Secondary Powerset (like my Bots/Kin) and Beasts aren't far behind.

Buffing your henchmen's Damage Resistance is nice too; as is an AoE Heal and allied Mez Protection... but because of how Bodyguard mode works you'll typically get more mileage out of aiming for the Defence Softcap than Resistance Hardcap for your henchmen.
In reality since the Aura IOs grant 35% Resistance and even the Defensive Henchmen have a smattering of inherent resistances you'll end up with multiple layers anyway... and there are some powers (like Mercs Serum) which can put them at the Resistance cap natively.

All that said... if you want the best all-rounder secondary at present then it's hard to look past Marine Affinity.
+Def, +Res, +MaxHP, an AoE Heal and major levels of additional damage; a well-built Mercs/Marine or Demons/Marine is very much a force to be reckoned with.

  

11 hours ago, benai said:

You have your 6 must use auras:

 

1 x  +10% aoe defense

 

Worth noting that the Regular ATO is +10% AoE Def; but the Superior (Catalyzed version) is +15%.
 

Edited October 3 by Maelwys

[benai]

I prefer Ninjas and Mercs over all other primaries. After that comes Thugs.

If Beast doesnt have Fortify pack I would go with them as first choice of all even through they are currently the worst in damage and the perma howling also reduces damage because they cant attack. But i dont know which is the choice for beasts. You lose damage because of fortify pack and so you need either kinetics with fulcrum shift or marine with shifting tides to get your damage back again.

 

Demons are nice because of their high resist, heal, buff - feels like robots but only with resist instead of def.

 

Do you have a built for a well-build mercs or demons/marine MM?

Whast the current way to go for ninja?

Edited October 3 by benai

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, benai said:

Do you have a built for a well-build mercs or demons/marine MM?

 

Whast the current way to go for ninja?

I haven't redone a Mercs yet; but I was playing around with a Demons/Marine build last week that's less bodyguard-mode focused then my usual MMs (below).
Might give you some ideas at least.

zMastermind - Demons - Marine.mbd

Note that Mids doesn't show the 'Ember Shield Owner' resistance bubble buff by default - but rough master figures are:
[Without RoP] and [With RoP]
 

As for the Henchmen?

The Aura IOs plus Toroidal Bubble and Ember Shield are applying the following resistance buffs:

+54.4% Fire
+51.9% Smashing
+37.2% Lethal/Toxic
+34.7% Cold
+29.7% Energy/Negative/Psi
Demon pet inherent resistances are all over the place; but they're generally sitting at between 55-85% to most types with Barrier adding another 5% minimum.
They're also getting +22.87% to Melee/Ranged defense and +37.87% to AoE (before Barrier and Support/Lore Incarnates) with the Prince sitting at the same to Smashing/Lethal/Cold. And obviously the major +MaxHP, +Regeneration and +Recovery buffs and AoE Heal are nice as well.
(And then there're all those -Resistance debuffs, +Damage buffs and Shifting Tide procs...)

There are plenty of other examples kicking around - most notably in the Clear Speed Leaderboards thread.
I'm sure someone else on here could throw up a decent Mercs build...

Regarding Ninjas? As mentioned earlier, they can reach the softcap regardless of your secondary (~21.5% to Melee/Ranged and ~28.5 to AoE from slotted Train Ninjas alone; then throw in Maneuvers and Aura IOs and Incarnates) so you can pick whatever you like... however if you're looking for best performance? Up until very recently /Time (Power Boosted) was the standout all-round MM secondary; but now it's firmly /Marine.
 

Edited October 3 by Maelwys

[benai]

And with Hell on Earth you have a mule power like Gang Wars on Thugs and Soul Extraction on Necromancy which lets you more freely Frankenslot your MM.

The problem with the MM is it starts to get in the right direction when you have your Auras before that even when you have the rest they are still squishy. Which are at least 30Mill with luck.

And your minions are not only your lifeforce but also your main damage force (proccs, debuffs and actual attacks).

Resummoning them costs you a lot of time, energy, recasts of your 2 minion buffs and is all in all annoying.

 

My biggest problem is to focus on one char and go for it.

My current idea is either Mercs/Marine, Demon/Marine or Thugs/Marine.

 

Maybe Demons or Robotics would be best because of the owner shielding and in addition to that Demons can heal you while Robotics can heal themself via Protector Bots and Healing Drone. And both of them are quite good in terms of damage too. Mercs seem to hold the current trophy for best in damage and beast worst in damage because all the others got buffed. That doesnt mean they are bad  in terms of damage. But Demons and Robotics were always good (pre buff they were the leading primaries for an MM). Robotics is nice when you get the Assault Bots Naplam Rocket in place.

 

Thugs have for me the problem as soon as they spread or an Enforcer is gone or to far away they lose def, tohit and damage because of their leadership auras. And without Auras (from enhancement, leadership from Enforcer and player) they have no resist and no def expect of Bruiser at all. (I dont count the single Resist of the Enforcer) So my least favorable option of those that I like. 

I dont know how much of an area effect Serum or Fortify Pack has but it seem at least Serum has a large enough radius to always get all 6 Soldiers buffed. So the radius is much higher then the Enforcer Auras. For Fortify Pack I actually never payed that much attention towards it. But my guess is with Serum and Fortify Pack Hasten would be a good option to keep the buff permanently on your Minions.

 

Maybe I am overthinking this and in the end as long as you slot them correctly, which is a hassle in itself, it doesnt matter at all.

And for Neiskas tip to plan it out before. I was always bad in making builds in this game. I had a basic idea of what i need to slot but nothing for sure.

[Riverdusk]

I consider Necro a "mixed" set myself just because of how much tohit debuffing they throw around.  It doesn't take long for them to softcap themselves against most things (AV's excluded but even against them it can add up).  Throw some defense on them and they are safe that much faster.  My necro/cold end up not getting hit much at all even though I still end up a bit short of softcapping them even with the ice shields, arctic fog, maneauvers, and IO's.  It is close enough that one aoe debuff from the lich and they are usually there and quickly.  The arctic fog also helps shore up two of their resistance weaknesses (fire and energy).  Also, that tohit debuffing helps protect you as well (sort of like bots and demons shielding their owners).  Add in the sheer number of pets necro can throw at a problem and that they are the only MM that has a pet that actually taunts (specters), and I'm a big fan of necro now.  

 

I also have a merc/dark that I find very good and I can imagine merc/marine would also work well.

 

I also had good luck with both bot/cold and bot/time and even beast/cold.

 

I tried thug/marine and was underwhelmed.  I agree with you and finally discovered for myself by closely monitoring their defense stats while in action as I wondered why they often didn't seem as tough as I thought they should be.  It was exactly the reason you said, all too often some of them would get out of range (or be blocked from line of sight) of the enforcers and that critical defense would disappear.  I found I had to keep a VERY tight leash on thugs to keep them alive in the tougher stuff.  For those that are really good at keeping them tight I'm sure they are great, but I found them more hassle than it was worth due to that issue.

 

I do think demon/marine should be a good pick and one I'm thinking of trying at some point.  And demon's shield has a 60 foot radius compared to thug enforcers 30 foot, so a lot more forgiving.

 

Will also have to try ninja at some point, it is the only MM primary I haven't yet to a decent level.

 

 

 

[benai]

Mercs and Beast are very much depending on you activitating their survival skill Serum or Fortify Pack and keep it active. As far as my gameplay knowledge takes me which can only be kept up by having a good amount of recharge, global recharge and hasten. Serum is here the better version (you dont lose damage like with Fortify Pack but you gain damage) when you can get it into perma and fast enough to counterplay the decay.

And your Beasts Howl and Roar have a 15 second duration but a 60 second cooldown. And the effect of recharge is not an option. That puts you even more on jeopardy to survive and do damage. Whats dead cant do damage, gain loot or have fun.

 

Then you have those on the other hand like Necro (Soul Extraction), Demons (Hell on Earth), Thugs (Gang Wars) were you get a hugh damage burst when you use these abilities. Which is from my perspective a good chunk of their damage potential the faster the recharge the better. But you dont lose your minions when you dont keep track like with Serum and Fortify Pack. While I would prefer Demons over Thugs and Necro in this case.

 

Ninjas (maybe belong also in the second categorie because of Smoke Bomb (stealth and stealth attack)) and Bots (Maintenance Drone) seem to be strong just with their two equip powers and Maintenance Drone is a nice gimmik. 

 

Yeah, Necro and Dark are very strong in the "you cant hit me" field.

 

But when I reread this whole topic again in the end Ninjas or Bots seem to match my taste the best. They are not massively depending on a skill like Mercs or Beasts and dont lose damage when you are not on high recharge due to Smoke Bomb has a far lower recharge by default.

 

So that left me with Ninja/Time/Mace, Ninja/Marine/....... or Bots/......./......... (FF, CD, Time with Mace or maybe Marine and Kinetics).

 

Edited October 5 by benai

[WumpusRat]

On 10/3/2024 at 1:49 PM, benai said:

I prefer Ninjas and Mercs over all other primaries. After that comes Thugs.

If Beast doesnt have Fortify pack I would go with them as first choice of all even through they are currently the worst in damage and the perma howling also reduces damage because they cant attack. But i dont know which is the choice for beasts. You lose damage because of fortify pack and so you need either kinetics with fulcrum shift or marine with shifting tides to get your damage back again.

Beast/Nature works very well, and is thematic for a "druid" type. For my D&D characters-in-Paragon, the druid is a beast/nature MM. She has near-perma overgrowth (it's off by about 5 seconds, I think), so they actually do quite a bit of damage. 

And never use the Fortify Pack clicky. You dump all your damage in exchange for some defense. I just use the power as a mule for a couple of boosts (LotG, Shield Wall, etc) and take it off my bar.

HOPEFULLY they'll get around to updating beasts (and thugs/demons) someday like they did for the other sets. They said "soon(tm)" after the first update, but that was two years ago at this point.

[benai]

15 hours ago, WumpusRat said:

Beast/Nature works very well, and is thematic for a "druid" type. For my D&D characters-in-Paragon, the druid is a beast/nature MM. She has near-perma overgrowth (it's off by about 5 seconds, I think), so they actually do quite a bit of damage. 

And never use the Fortify Pack clicky. You dump all your damage in exchange for some defense. I just use the power as a mule for a couple of boosts (LotG, Shield Wall, etc) and take it off my bar.

HOPEFULLY they'll get around to updating beasts (and thugs/demons) someday like they did for the other sets. They said "soon(tm)" after the first update, but that was two years ago at this point.

I liked the idea of Beast/Kinetics to still be using Fortify Pack and and still have Damage Buff in form of Fulcrum Shift.

But maybe Beast and Marine would do the same trick which has also +dmg, +togit +def +resist and a lot more.

 

Melee has the problem that it will take hugh amount of area damage. With Bots and Mercs you can just use group fly and be safe for most of the damage.

So when they want to rework Beasts they have to take that in consideration or it will be not better.

And Ninjas perform in terms of Melee to a certain amount way better then Beasts and they dont need Fortify Pack (+def -dmg or flat 5% def when you dont have dmg buff (Pack Mentality)). They have higher def and much higher damage. You have 3 buffs one with bow and your shortlived version with smoke bomb.

 

 

My current setting is Robotics or Mercs with either Marine or Time or Ninja with Marine or Time.

Edited October 11 by benai

[kelika2]

When it comes to those IO auras I only use the one that compliments the primary while leveling up

Reminder that this is for when I level up:

Beast/cold, mostly defense

I will slot Wolves as such:

4/5 Commanding Presence, 1 random acc/dmg/end pet damage, call to arms: def aura

And at max level with access to Hamis I will go:

2 acc/dmg hamis, 1 random acc/dmg/end IO, and 2-3 procs

lions same deal but 2 procs and 1 golgi.  helps their end spending and their self heal thing

dire wolf same thing but raw end redux and maybe a buildup proc

 

but to answer the OP there are lots of combos nowadays

Demons paired up with thermal or sonic for resist stacking.  change up the def aura shown above to Sovereign Right or Mark of Supremacy resist auras

Thugs/robots/ninjas paired up with anything +def or -tohit.  Trick Arrow got a buff awhile back and its Flash Arrow with Enforcers' +def was amazing plus oil slick.  cold dom, dark miasma, traps, etc

Beast mastery I found out can go either resist or defense.  defense being stronger.  but my beast/thermal and sonic was ok

Mercs and Necros are weird to me.  Necro pets have odd/uncommon resists and no defense, Mercs get their defense too late for me.  However because Mercs are ranged they are in less danger in groups for the most part and my merc/ff, thermal, sonic, dark, and trick arrows were ok to play.  Necromancy I only found fun paired with dark miasma. 

 

and dark mia can go with any set because of the massive amounts of -tohit it can do.  slot Fearsome Stare for -tohit and take Teleport Target to tote around your Dark Servant.  getting dark servant into melee range for its gigantically massive -tohit aura is mastermindally universal for pet survival

 

And on the day we finally get blessed with a way to remove the Repel on Hurricane I will get back to you with all the mastermind combos that will unlock

[benai]

My current idea which I am not happy with is something like that:

Mastermind (Beast - Nature) V0.1.mbd

 

But I am not sure if Power Boost is actually doing anything good for nature and if it worth taking it. The other question is if leaving out Corrosive Enzymes and putting in Entangling Aura makes sense. I lose a -resist and -damage debuff.

I wanted to go for Kick-Weave-Tough but I ran out of slots.

 

 

[Maelwys]

8 hours ago, benai said:

But I am not sure if Power Boost is actually doing anything good for nature and if it worth taking it. The other question is if leaving out Corrosive Enzymes and putting in Entangling Aura makes sense.

 

Power Boost will just be affecting your raw healing numbers. It's nowhere near as beneficial for /Nature as it is for /FF or /Time.

 

Don't drop Corrosive Enzymes unless you never plan on fighting AVs/GMs.

 

Edited October 25 by Maelwys

[TheSpiritFox]

On 10/25/2024 at 3:11 PM, Maelwys said:

 

Power Boost will just be affecting your raw healing numbers. It's nowhere near as beneficial for /Nature as it is for /FF or /Time.

 

Don't drop Corrosive Enzymes unless you never plan on fighting AVs/GMs.

 

Nature has 3 longer term buffs all of which benefit alot from power boost. Even more resistance, even more absorb, I'm not sure if power boost affects the damage bonus from the nature T9, but it would definitely boost the endurance reduction, with two powers you can pretty much eliminate everyone on a team/leagues endurance use lol. With a perma hasten build power boost would be up every single time your big buffs are, and would be a solid power pick particularly for an MM who uses support powers more than anyone else besides defenders, generally. 

[Maelwys]

9 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said:

Nature has 3 longer term buffs all of which benefit alot from power boost. Even more resistance, even more absorb, I'm not sure if power boost affects the damage bonus from the nature T9, but it would definitely boost the endurance reduction, with two powers you can pretty much eliminate everyone on a team/leagues endurance use lol. With a perma hasten build power boost would be up every single time your big buffs are, and would be a solid power pick particularly for an MM who uses support powers more than anyone else besides defenders, generally. 

 

Power Boost doesn't enhance Resistance buffs. In fact, it specifically doesn't enhance any Defence buffing powers that also contain a Resistance buff (such as Cold Domination Bubbles, and Darkness Affinity's Fade)

The same goes for Recovery and Endurance Cost Reduction (it affects "Endurance" strength, which is a fancy way of saying that it'll work on powers which directly drain or grant a chunk of endurance, such as Transference or Power Sink. But not Recovery Aura or Speed Boost)
And it'll also not affect your -Regen, -Resistance and -Damage debuffs, or your +Regen and +Damage buffs.

Wild Bastion's Absorb will certainly get buffed a bit. As will the raw healing from Regrowth and the raw Endurance from Live Giving Spores (although only whilst PB is active). It'll do mostly zip for your other buffs and debuffs though unfortunately. Full list of what it affects is in its CoDv2 entry.

 

As for Overgrowth? Definitely not buffing the +Damage, and I strongly suspect the "Endurance Discount" will not be affected either as "Discount" is coded differently from "Endurance" (it's the difference between light blue and dark blue Common Enhancements). The +ToHit will get boosted a bit though if that makes it worth it for you.
 

Edited October 27 by Maelwys