Why a Brute?

[Erratic1]

4 hours ago, Gobbledigook said:

I warched that back in the day. 🙂

 

My favourite is...

 

 

 

The thing about black holes is...they're black.

 

And the thing about space is...its black.

[brass_eagle]

On 10/24/2024 at 11:11 PM, Erratic1 said:

 

Ston was a rather prolific collector/tester of AT performance and the image was taken from his thread: 

 

You can click the above and go to the thread. Mind you, this is only a portion of of the totality of his work and discusses on Trapdoor, which favors area attacks and more importantly procs--something it is somewhat hard to load up on as a Brute as compared to a Tanker because Brutes have to bend their slotting towards survivability. Pylon is another common metric. And before this thread, there were others where people both reported their performance and often video clips of their runs. In the previous Trapdoor thread (in the Scrapper subforums I think) Ston would regularly challenge people's notions on exactly what type of performance could be managed on Tankers. You can catch him doing so in the following thread (which predates the one above) here:

 

 

Posting the image I did is a remind to some of the participants of this thread they participated in those other threads and did not find near the objections they have managed to find in this one.

 

 

 

Thank you for doing your due diligence. I remember I do have a few issues with the study, not to undermine the amount of data collection. There are some good results here too

 

But nonetheless--always cite if you are going to call people ignorant. It only helps you:

 

  

On 10/16/2024 at 1:04 AM, Erratic1 said:

 

This is a lot like saying, "Everyone else is getting paid more but your salary stayed the same, so you're okay." You and Tidge both ignore the reality and objectivity of actual, documented performance... *goes on to say things past insult*

 

 

As someone that has had to reply to everything in this thread, please be kinder to your fellow forum dwellers. And do your part if you care that much about brutes. Your "on the offense" posts did nothing to bring me to your side. If this was supposed to be persuasive, I was turned off quickly. I invite you to change tactics from being "right at every turn" a little bit.

 

EDIT: I want to edit, I do think plenty of what you said has merit, and by no means was I trying to shut you down or be malicious. My criticism is of your approach. I love it when people succeed and I want that. I love when an argument can change my mind. It is often an extremely difficult task to do just that in this post-modern internet era. I do realize my post here was a bit too "focused" on you. My apologies. I am all for correcting the record where I can. Thanks for your understanding. @Erratic1

Edited October 29 by brass_eagle
see EDIT:

[Maelwys]

On 10/25/2024 at 11:20 PM, Erratic1 said:

 

The thing about black holes is...they're black.

 

And the thing about space is...its black.

Kryten: "They've taken Mr Rimmer. Sir, they've taken Mr Rimmer!"
Cat: "Quick, let's get out of here before they bring him back..."
 

Holly: "Nothing wrong with dog's milk. Full of goodness, full of vitamins, full of marrowbone jelly. Lasts longer than any other type of milk, dog's milk."

Lister: "Why?"

Holly: "No bugger'll drink it."

*Ahem*
What were we talking about?
Oh yes:

So Kryten's a Tanker.
Lister's a Scrapper.
Cat's a Stalker.
Rimmer's a [Smeeeeee...]

 

[Without_Pause]

On 10/25/2024 at 7:29 AM, Erratic1 said:

Completely untrue. A Brute will never, ever, EVER tank as well as a Tanker. Period. They will also never, ever, EVER do as much damage as a Scrapper or Stalker. There is no choice. They will be second place no matter what they do.

One thing I learned in school is how often absolutes were not in fact true. I'm not saying I was tanking on a Brute, but I was out surviving the comparable Tanker build while soloing. Also, good luck to a Scrapper and Stalker doing more damage than a Brute with a damage aura in the lower levels. In short, I rerolled a Tanker build for Gold side content for the sake of exploring said content to a Brute, and I'm doing missions faster and safer. Sure, eventually the Tanker will get its footing and stop being so boring to play, but the advantages of being a Tanker in this situation is nil. 

[Octogoat]

No thoughts just deer 🦌

[Triumphant]

2 hours ago, Octogoat said:

No thoughts just deer 🦌

 

BRUTE SMASH DEER!!!  😁

[Project]

This is an interesting conversation about a lot of Min/Max'ing arguments.

I really think a lot misses the point of the Brute to begin with.

Sinces the lines between villians and heroes has dissapperead there have been a lot of arguments of who is best for A or B, which for the most part makes sense. There are no argument Tanks are the best tanks. Scrappers and Stalkers make more damage in melee, Blasters make more damage than a corruptor, however a corruptor can damage as well as buff the entire team at the same time, something no other AT actually can do (arguing for defender as a strong dmg dealer is fine, but go to the hardcore corruptor forums and they will school you xD) 

Now back to brutes. Brutes are a bit subject to the same thing that Paladins are in other games. They dont tank or damage as well as other classes and they heal and deal magic damage less than true magic classes, so whats the point!? Well they do something no other class does.
No Brutes do not tank the best, they dont damage the best, so what do they do the best? Well nothing! However, they do something no other AT does in the game! The tank better than a Scrapper, and way better than a Stalker - they got the same Res Cap as a tanker so potentially almost on par with the tanker in the end with buffs and all. At the same time, they do consistent damage which is way higher than any other melee AT. Yes trapdoor graph is nice, but is it really relevant? I'm not completely convinced xD The number per tick on a Brutes aura is higher than a tanks. So I don't really care much for a Trapdoor test xD Yes a tank have a bigger reach, but does it matter much? For most cases, not really. But for some it does, so it all adds up. 

So Brutes is more survivable than Scrappers and Stalkers, but less than Tanks, which makes sense. At the same time they have fury which to be honest isn't a thing you need to build up any more. Two punches and you are at 80%, so forget about wind up time... With fury a Brute does way more dmg than a tank can, just look at the numbers, they are bigger! 🙂 They even do more dmg than a stalker and a scrapper if you exclude their criticals! By a random generated mechanism Scrappers and Stalkers get a head, but again it is random! That means that if you want consistency in high dmg and to be very survivable then a Brute is a way to go. Sure they are harder to max cap on resistance than a tank, and sure they overall melee damage is less than a scrapper with 50% crit chance, but they put themselves right in the middle of that and make up for it with consistency!

To top that they do get some sets which makes a lot of sense, like Regeneration which is miles better on a Brute than on a Scrapper. 

Also many seem to ignore the actual experience. Making a Hulk kind of character and make him into a tank feels wrong and diminishing, as a scrapper he feels to weak and silly. Brute is made partly for the middel ground of a tanker and a scrapper and for the experience of being Bane or Hulk smashing through ranks of enemies! 

Oh also, until level 50 and a Scrapper gets the 50% crit stuff, they simply don't compete with a brute on damage. Their Crit chance is to damn low. The game is way bigger than lvl 50+ - I like playing an AT that is fun all the way through, and not just at the end of the game 🙂

Edited December 6 by Project

[Erratic1]

This line:

 

Quote

No Brutes do not tank the best, they dont damage the best, so what do they do the best? 

 

contradicts this line (which isn't true):

 

Quote

At the same time, they do consistent damage which is way higher than any other melee AT.

 

Either they do damage the best or they don't.

 

And the following line...

 

3 hours ago, Project said:

They even do more dmg than a stalker and a scrapper if you exclude their criticals!

 

...is like saying a Ford Mustang is faster than a Bugatti Veyron if you exclude fuel from the Bugatti. 

 

As for the following:

 

Quote

By a random generated mechanism Scrappers and Stalkers get a head, but again it is random! 

 

The cards dealt in Blackjack are random but understanding the nature of probability allows gambling houses to stay in business with far more losers paying the houses than the houses pay winners. Likewise, Scrappers and Stalkers can leverage the ability of their ATO which increases crit chances to reliably deal more damage than a Brutes over time.

 

 

3 hours ago, Project said:

To top that they do get some sets which makes a lot of sense, like Regeneration which is miles better on a Brute than on a Scrapper. 

 

Regeneration is crappy for any AT that gets it. It is not a top armor set. In fact, I seem to recall having a picture which illustrates where Regeneration is...

 

[Blue Note]

Oh we like more pictures like that with other sets displayed in it!

[Project]

3 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

This line:

 

 

contradicts this line (which isn't true):

 

 

Either they do damage the best or they don't.

 

And the following line...

 

 

...is like saying a Ford Mustang is faster than a Bugatti Veyron if you exclude fuel from the Bugatti. 

 

As for the following:

 

 

The cards dealt in Blackjack are random but understanding the nature of probability allows gambling houses to stay in business with far more losers paying the houses than the houses pay winners. Likewise, Scrappers and Stalkers can leverage the ability of their ATO which increases crit chances to reliably deal more damage than a Brutes over time.

 

 

 

Regeneration is crappy for any AT that gets it. It is not a top armor set. In fact, I seem to recall having a picture which illustrates where Regeneration is...

 

They are doing damage the most consistently - don't have to rely on a chance mechanism.

Next time reply with some manners? Strangely condecending vocabulary you spew out.

Do read the entire thing, and then reply? Because it's clear you didn't... Otherwise you just spend time trying to tear it apart of the sake of it. Yes with 50% crit chance a Scrapper will do more dmg than a Brute, without it, it's not likely, their crit chance is simply to low. Thats 49 lvls of not shining compared to a brute. (Stalker takes the edge, because they don't need fancy gear to crit). 

Brutes have the advantages of consistency while being almost on par in survivablity with a Tank.

Regen is like Dark. A lot of players don't know how to use it - saying it sucks is lack of understanding. There are plenty of posts about that proving the naysayers wrong every time.

 

[Erratic1]

57 minutes ago, Project said:

They are doing damage the most consistently - don't have to rely on a chance mechanism.

 

You are claiming it is some sort of advantage for damage values to stay clumped together as opposed to spiking due to crits?!?

 

Well...guess not winning the lottery gives me more consistent income and so is better than winning millions of dollars. 

 

1 hour ago, Project said:

Next time reply with some manners? Strangely condecending vocabulary you spew out.

 

You have not remotely seen condescension yet.

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Blue Note said:

Oh we like more pictures like that with other sets displayed in it!

 

It's a tempting idea....

[Maelwys]

2 hours ago, Project said:

 Yes with 50% crit chance a Scrapper will do more dmg than a Brute, without it, it's not likely, their crit chance is simply to low

+ A solo Scrapper without ATOs but with a Musculature Core Alpha and a /SD secondary (AAO vs 1 Foe) @10% Crit Rate will remain ahead of a Brute until ~83+ Fury.
+ A solo Scrapper without ATOs but with a Musculature Core Alpha plus a /Bio Secondary (Offense + Hardened Carapace) @10% Crit Rate will remain ahead until ~88+ Fury.
+ If we ignore Damage Buffs from the Secondary (Scrappers gain 1.25x the buff from self +DamageStrength compared to a Brute; so it could be seen as unfair) and just take the Musculature Alpha then the Scrapper would require an additional +17% damage (@80 Fury) or +32% Damage (@85 Fury) to begin to pull ahead. Those are trivial numbers to reach solo with Set Bonuses, let alone with outside buffage from teammates/pets.

Suffice to say this sort of thing keeps coming up time and time again.

Scrappers already pull ahead of Brutes on damage output simply by factoring in IOs and/or teammates (as they should, since Brutes get higher Resistance and MaxHP caps and better taunting ability). Slotting ATOs engages the turbo boosters on the Scrapper, but not on the Brute... and that is the main reason why I don't think Brutes are in a very good place right now balancewise.
 

Edited December 6 by Maelwys

[Without_Pause]

2 hours ago, Project said:

Regen is like Dark. A lot of players don't know how to use it - saying it sucks is lack of understanding. There are plenty of posts about that proving the naysayers wrong every time.

And then the debuffs hit.

[Project]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

 

You are claiming it is some sort of advantage for damage values to stay clumped together as opposed to spiking due to crits?!?

 

Well...guess not winning the lottery gives me more consistent income and so is better than winning millions of dollars. 

 

 

You have not remotely seen condescension yet.

I'm saying predictability is an advantage yes. After all a scrapper is a low output stalker and a weak brute xD they aren't best at anything either 🙂

 

And by the general tone you respond with to people in this forum I'm confused what you are even doing in the brute part.

[Erratic1]

54 minutes ago, Project said:

I'm saying predictability is an advantage yes.

 

What is the advantage?

 

Thinking most people would happily take receiving double pay for their work with a 6% chance over just receiving their pay because they come out ahead. Do explain why you wouldn't.

[Enamel_32]

On 12/6/2024 at 2:38 PM, Erratic1 said:

What is the advantage?

 

Thinking most people would happily take receiving double pay for their work with a 6% chance over just receiving their pay because they come out ahead. Do explain why you wouldn't.

 

I can't speak for Project, but I can kind of see a reason myself. In terms of being able to effectively plan ahead, a "Critical Paycheck" (fun concept/name by the way) is hard to work with. The extra money is inevitable, however the time scale is not. I need to know when it can be put to use, to get my old junker car repaired, schedule a vacation, etc.

 

For a Brute, there is little uncertainty about how much damage their next attack will do, and that helps inform what the most appropriate next attack would be, or when they will need to switch to a different target. Critical strikes can do double damage on a last hit and contribute nothing just as easily they can transform a first hit into a one-shot. It's certainly nice and I wouldn't turn it down, but I can't maximize its output by playing a certain way like with fury. It's a "winning battles" vs. "winning wars" relationship, but that's my two cents.

[Erratic1]

14 minutes ago, Enamel_32 said:

 

I can't speak for Project, but I can kind of see a reason myself. In terms of being able to effectively plan ahead, a "Critical Paycheck" (fun concept/name by the way) is hard to work with. The extra money is inevitable, however the time scale is not. I need to know when it can be put to use, to get my old junker car repaired, schedule a vacation, etc.

 

All those people getting surprise refunds from their doctor's office for overpayment not allowed by the insurance company just throwing the money away because, "It wasn't planned for." Oh wait...I have NEVER seen that happen. In fact my mother, just earlier today when I was visiting her commented on the surprise lowering of her Internet bill by $20 every month from now until next December, which she was informed of when a company representative called to see why she had dropped cable television with them...nothing she planned for and oddly enough something she was happy to be receive.

 

Its a planet of 8 billion people, so I cannot say there is nobody on Earth who would not receive with joy a bit of extra money surprisingly showing up. But I certainly have yet to run into any of them.

 

 

 

14 minutes ago, Enamel_32 said:

 

For a Brute, there is little uncertainty about how much damage their next attack will do, and that helps inform what the most appropriate next attack would be, or when they will need to switch to a different target. Critical strikes can do double damage on a last hit and contribute nothing just as easily they can transform a first hit into a one-shot. It's certainly nice and I wouldn't turn it down, but I can't maximize its output by playing a certain way like with fury. It's a "winning battles" vs. "winning wars" relationship, but that's my two cents.

 

I am honestly perplexed at the notion there are people playing out there who both know their attacks and their expected damage so well on top of knowing their foes resistances so well that they can predict the exact number of blows it take to dispatch a foe. Of course there is that probabilistic, uncertainty of a given blow landing...oh wait, chance again! Will you look at that!!!

 

Sorry, that sounds absurd.

[lemming]

Been playing the heck out of my Rad/Rad Brute lately after a lot of tanker play.

 

Things I've noted:

Very survivable, can even take on some content in the Labyrinth solo.  I do have to pay attention more than with my tankers.  While teamed one friend asked if I was OK and my answer was "Maybe".   My health was bouncing all over the place, but I never dropped.

And I've been having a lot of fun with this build.

hmm, typed the above some time ago.

 

In the meantime, I decided to try out a MA/Rad Scrapper and found that the lack of resistance was telling.  More DPS, but the survivability was no where near the Rad/Rad Brute.  So started up a MA/Rad Brute to see.  So far, lots of fun which really is how I gauge stuff anyway.

 

 

[Enamel_32]

50 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

All those people getting surprise refunds from their doctor's office for overpayment not allowed by the insurance company just throwing the money away because, "It wasn't planned for." Oh wait...I have NEVER seen that happen.

Of course, because that would be absurd! This is where our analogy breaks down. If you receive unexpected extra money, you can keep it. You cannot put unexpected critical hit damage in a bank for later, however. If a crit was total overkill, it's A. comical in a way video games do very well, and B. serves no purpose. Apologies if this detail wasn't clear enough.

 

39 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

I am honestly perplexed at the notion there are people playing out there who both know their attacks and their expected damage so well on top of knowing their foes resistances so well that they can predict the exact number of blows it take to dispatch a foe.

I don't need to. The game tells me exactly how much damage the attacks do after resistance and visually how much of the HP bar it took away. I don't find it difficult to build up an intuition once I've smashed through a group or two.

 

Happy to hear you mother is paying less for internet, though. They're usually happy to keep quiet about stuff like that and keep charging the original amount.

 

 

Why I pick brutes, though, is the optimization possibilities: having high damage and resistance caps (and a few other things including the fury mechanic) make for enjoyable problem solving, there's space for a build to "grow" in multiple directions. I don't find being between a tanker and scrapper a shameful thing (though I do feel tankers are a touch strong in their current state) and I can dial in exactly where between those two I want each brute of mine to reside.

[Thraxen]

If you using scrap Ato right, you’re getting two attacks after it fires. Not one. Maybe two aoes. Or one at and an aoe. Depends on the set. 

[Erratic1]

20 minutes ago, Enamel_32 said:

Of course, because that would be absurd!

 

As is the notion that extra damage coming to you randomly above what you would otherwise do is somehow a detriment.

 

And the notion becomes even more absurd when you factor in the ATO which helps regularize crits.

 

22 minutes ago, Enamel_32 said:

I don't need to. The game tells me exactly how much damage the attacks do after resistance and visually how much of the HP bar it took away. I don't find it difficult to build up an intuition once I've smashed through a group or two.

 

And yet somehow, suddenly getting a second package of damage and dispatching your opponent in 3 hits as opposed to 4 is a drawback.

 

23 minutes ago, Enamel_32 said:

I do feel tankers are a touch strong

 

What trouble me is that Brutes had to be nerfed, more than once, to protect other ATs (Scrappers and Tankers) and yet there is nothing being protected about being a Brute. But that is on record.

[Enamel_32]

Agreed. I've been trying to describe one benefit of predictable damage, and I don't believe it involved making arguments that critical strikes were detrimental at any point. One thing being beneficial doesn't mean the other is a drawback. In fact, my "winning wars" bit was intended to be a nod to crits being stronger overall, while fury might win the occasional battle here and there.

 

36 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

What trouble me is that Brutes had to be nerfed, more than once, to protect other ATs (Scrappers and Tankers) and yet there is nothing being protected about being a Brute. But that is on record.

I wasn't aware of nerfs, were those before the official NCSoft agreement?

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Enamel_32 said:

I wasn't aware of nerfs, were those before the official NCSoft agreement?

 

Years back at this point. And to be fair, there was the buff where Fury does not drain as quickly as it originally did.

 

In any event, I have my two most recent level 50 Brutes I am working on with no plans for anything to follow. The build space where Scrappers and Tankers do best seems wider and more interesting than trying to explore the narrow path where Brutes do best. Not going to rule out an idea coming to me, but that is what it is going to take for me to make another Brute at this point.