Mastermid Henchmen level penalty.

[Maxzero]

Short question: why is this still here?

 

Longer question:

 

MM henchmen are the only power that has certain aspects of it get weaker as the character gains levels. It can't be for balance reasons since in Incarnate content and Dark Astoria the level penalties are removed entirely.

 

Leveling speed seems fairly irrelevant but even in this case MM would hardly be flying even with the removal of penalties.

 

So can we just get this counter intuitive and needless mechanic removed?

 

 

[Rudra]

Except it is for balance reasons. The more pets of a given tier your character has, the more powerful and effective that pet power is. As you are already aware, when you first get a MM pet power, it only has 1 pet of the henchman tier. (As opposed to pet tier.) That 1 pet increases your character's damage output considerably. Now when you get another pet of that tier, that greatly boosts your combat ability. To keep those pets from simply erasing your foes, they suffer a level penalty. Mathematically, the level penalty evens out what those pets can do because those pets are less likely to hit and do less damage when they do hit because of their lower levels. The pets themselves don't see a loss of damage or accuracy, but the level penalty itself is one. So a MM running all 3 pet powers will be more effective than a MM with a single pet power, and a MM with say only the T1 pet power will be more effective with all 3 of the pets it gives than if the power still only gave 1 pet, but that level penalty brings their combat effectiveness back down to a point where the MM isn't just devouring everything the map has.

 

Now for incarnate content, which includes the Dark Astoria zone, incarnate enemies are much more powerful than regular enemies even at +0 (normal) difficulty. So MM pets suffering a level penalty in these situations was a handicap. The attempt at balance failed because it takes so much more to fight incarnate enemies. It was no longer a question of players choosing to play at higher difficulties and the pets not keeping up, now it was just regular difficulty content (for incarnate content) that the pets were struggling with. So for incarnate content, as long as your pets stay within Supremacy's radius, they get a level boost to get them all up to your character's full current incarnate level.

 

As for MM's being the only ones that suffer the pet level penalty? While this is true for the pets gaining the level penalties as the MM levels up for the MM getting more of each pet, it is not true for pets in general. The difference is that Controller and Dominator pets start with their full array of pets, so if their pet power summons more than 1 pet, those pets start with their -1 level penalty. (The difference here being that Controller and Dominator pets do not suffer more than a -1 level shift even if the power summons 3 pets. I have not run my Dominators through any incarnate content yet, so I don't know if they get the MM's pet level increases or not.)

[aelgus]

I agree and disagree at the same time.  I think it is good for balancing purposes, but the balancing was all done before IOs and incarnate stuff.  I have no issues with the 49 and 50 pets, I think they work just fine.  The weak 48s though...they are just trash.  I usually use them to only slot defensives.  Even with a +1 level shift, that only takes them to 49 meaning they're still up against +5s when running at the usual +4x8.  The +5 zone really makes them useless.  I see my lvl 48+1 minions smacking lvl 54s for 9 damage when they're at +110% dmg enhancement.

[Glacier Peak]

5 hours ago, aelgus said:

I see my lvl 48+1 minions smacking lvl 54s for 9 damage when they're at +110% dmg enhancement.

Try debuffing the resistance of the enemy your Henchmen are attacking. 

[Maelwys]

On 10/25/2024 at 3:49 PM, Maxzero said:

Short question: why is this still here?

Short Answer: The Devs haven't quite gotten around to implementing it yet:
 

 

[tidge]

I think it is important to recognize that for non-incarnate (i.e. "classic") content the Mastermind AT is balanced. It isn't true to write that a MM gets weaker as it levels up to 50. It is more true IMO to write that the MM is one of the few classes that has to adapt its play style the most for different content, far more than other ATs have to adapt. Henchmen do more than just provide offense. A skilled MM has to plan what it wants to do with the different tiers of henchmen, and choose powers (and slot them) appropriately to achieve those goals.

 

More offense via enemy debuffs is one choice, focusing on helping the henchmen to survive is a choice.

 

Unrelated to the discussion of henchmen, but I want to provide a counter-example to this:

On 10/25/2024 at 10:49 AM, Maxzero said:

MM henchmen are the only power that has certain aspects of it get weaker as the character gains levels.

 

Kheldian Nova form blasts are strong (even unslotted) at levels 6-14 or so, but they get effectively weaker at higher levels, even while slotted. They'll hit, but it can take a lot of effort (and/or an exploit) to get them to hit very hard, compared to any kind of other ranged attacker above level 30.

[Glacier Peak]

Interesting to see Mastermind Henchmen receiving the zone wide Level Shifts inside the Labyrinth of the Fog raid zone. A Level 50+10 Mastermind (assuming 10 Level Shifts active or a combination of them plus Alpha slot and Draught of the Fog inspiration) will have Henchmen at previously unobtainable levels. 

 

Fight For Rewards & Gain Level Shifts!

• Pets (including Mastermind and Lore) also receive the zone-wide Level Shift buffs.

[Glacier Peak]

6 hours ago, Maelwys said:

Short Answer: The Devs haven't quite gotten around to implementing it yet:
 

 

Couldn't find the through the link, so here's a screenshot. @Player-1, did the pipeline get clogged two years ago? 😁