A relook at LGTF

[DrRocket]

This suggestion, is likely to result with a lot of work on the dev side, especially with the Star version of LGTF, if accepted.

 

The background to my suggestion has a lot to do with how City of Heroes has evolved in a friendlier way, in the very beginning because of the abilities of characters or classes they could be, this was an era before IOs, incarnates, and what not. So because of the limitations, when forming teams to do a TF or even a thread mission, the composition of the team was very important; I remember we would not dare do a TF without a tank and an emp defender! But as the game evolved, that set in stone requirement slowly diminished.

 

Now that I have set a context, I look at the Hami portion of it, and it sadly takes us back to the team breakdown qualifications such as we better have holds, which forces well built controllers and dominators or above these two to have blasters or others with holds.

 

Thus in the spirit of not requiring specific classes and builds to handle Hami, that something should be done about it, I have 2 concepts, but sure there are more to be thought off, which I hope you all will be happy to contribute with.

 

Concept 1: Get rid of the Hami mission altogether, and replace with it another mission of delicious Rikti carnage.

Concept 2: Provide a hold temp power you can buy at the P2W vendor, regardless of your alt's power source (magic, mutant, etc.)

 

I know, that many times, the team despite of being randomly put together can breeze through it, and I am sure one of you will tell me you can solo it because you are so legendary, but remember most of the players in the server are very likely to be casual players with modest builds and that the random team recruiting could make Hami a royal pain or not possible to complete

 

As always, please allow this to be a learning opportunity

 

Regards

 

[Rudra]

The Weakened Hamidon in the LGTF is only an EB. If you can weather his attacks, you can simply attack the core and defeat him. No special team builds required. (That said, a friend and I tried to duo the LGTF and couldn't because of him. However, that does not mean he should be removed. TFs [and SFs] are meant to be team endeavors. If others can solo the TF/SF, great for them. If we need to build a team to tackle the TF/SF? Great for the game. So I oppose removing him.)

[Projector]

4 hours ago, DrRocket said:

Now that I have set a context, I look at the Hami portion of it, and it sadly takes us back to the team breakdown qualifications such as we better have holds, which forces well built controllers and dominators or above these two to have blasters or others with holds.

 

Thus in the spirit of not requiring specific classes and builds to handle Hami, that something should be done about it, I have 2 concepts, but sure there are more to be thought off, which I hope you all will be happy to contribute with.

 

I totally understand the spirit of your suggestion, and I'm glad you're thinking about the game differently. I don't want to discourage this kind of thinking, and I also want to applaud that you included suggestions, not just a complaint about the content while offering nothing in terms of a solution. 

Onto your actual complaint and suggestion:

1. Having content that does have some barrier to entry in regard to preparation is a good thing. If you enter into missions unprepared, you will get your ass kicked. That would be true of real-life heroes/villains, as well, I imagine.. So those players with modest or bad builds? Imo, they should encounter content that potentially makes them rethink their build and consider ways to iterate on it. It challenges players to get better, and as you've stated, the content is beatable without those ATs and there are workarounds. 

In fact, your second concept is already true: everyone can go and get a hold from START vendor in Pocket D mid-TF and still be able to complete it when dealing with the Green mitos. You just have to revoke your current AT-specific temp power first, then it will allow you to pick from any of them. The Taser Dart is the one with a chance to hold.

There are other creative ways of dealing with Hami, too: Gravity Control's wormhole will move Hami out of the goo and Fold Space can, too. You'll be able to fight Hami completely away from the Mitos, if you so desire!

Second, "spirit of not requiring specific classes and builds" is a personal preference, but doesn't seem to be a part of this game's design philosophy, nor the Homecoming team's.

"It's not right that I should be forced to either bring a healer, build for def/resistances, or include a heal. So, I think the enemies shouldn't ever do damage."
See the problem?

If you make it so no mechanics play to any certain ATs strengths, it's also even less of a reason to bring less powerful ATs. Already, Controllers, Dominators, and Masterminds see significantly less play, especially in higher level content. So removing mechanics that play to their strengths (MMs excluded in this case) would just means those players feel even more excluded. 

What your suggestion reads as, to me and I would imagine at least a few others, is more akin to, "I want to never have to actively think about what I am doing, and just be able to attack and defeat things mindlessly. So make success guaranteed and make the win automatic."
 

[Ukase]

19 hours ago, Projector said:

everyone can go and get a hold from START vendor in Pocket D mid-TF and still be able to complete it when dealing with the Green mitos. You just have to revoke your current AT-specific temp power first, then it will allow you to pick from any of them.

This is the kind of thinking that impresses me. While I knew I could revoke certain temps, I'm usually in too much of a yank, and frankly not paying any attention to the other things I can do while I'm there. 

[DrRocket]

On 11/3/2024 at 11:22 AM, Rudra said:

The Weakened Hamidon in the LGTF is only an EB. If you can weather his attacks, you can simply attack the core and defeat him. No special team builds required. (That said, a friend and I tried to duo the LGTF and couldn't because of him. However, that does not mean he should be removed. TFs [and SFs] are meant to be team endeavors. If others can solo the TF/SF, great for them. If we need to build a team to tackle the TF/SF? Great for the game. So I oppose removing him.)

Mmm, maybe something changed... We got stuck we could not kill the greens, so out of lark we opened a can of whoop-ass on Hami and defeated him, but got no mission completion out of it. We had already killed the yellows and blues before we took hami out, but were forced to take the greens out before mission completion

[DrRocket]

On 11/3/2024 at 1:27 PM, Projector said:

I totally understand the spirit of your suggestion, and I'm glad you're thinking about the game differently. I don't want to discourage this kind of thinking, and I also want to applaud that you included suggestions, not just a complaint about the content while offering nothing in terms of a solution. 

Onto your actual complaint and suggestion:

1. Having content that does have some barrier to entry in regard to preparation is a good thing. If you enter into missions unprepared, you will get your ass kicked. That would be true of real-life heroes/villains, as well, I imagine.. So those players with modest or bad builds? Imo, they should encounter content that potentially makes them rethink their build and consider ways to iterate on it. It challenges players to get better, and as you've stated, the content is beatable without those ATs and there are workarounds. 

In fact, your second concept is already true: everyone can go and get a hold from START vendor in Pocket D mid-TF and still be able to complete it when dealing with the Green mitos. You just have to revoke your current AT-specific temp power first, then it will allow you to pick from any of them. The Taser Dart is the one with a chance to hold.

There are other creative ways of dealing with Hami, too: Gravity Control's wormhole will move Hami out of the goo and Fold Space can, too. You'll be able to fight Hami completely away from the Mitos, if you so desire!

Second, "spirit of not requiring specific classes and builds" is a personal preference, but doesn't seem to be a part of this game's design philosophy, nor the Homecoming team's.

"It's not right that I should be forced to either bring a healer, build for def/resistances, or include a heal. So, I think the enemies shouldn't ever do damage."
See the problem?

If you make it so no mechanics play to any certain ATs strengths, it's also even less of a reason to bring less powerful ATs. Already, Controllers, Dominators, and Masterminds see significantly less play, especially in higher level content. So removing mechanics that play to their strengths (MMs excluded in this case) would just means those players feel even more excluded. 

What your suggestion reads as, to me and I would imagine at least a few others, is more akin to, "I want to never have to actively think about what I am doing, and just be able to attack and defeat things mindlessly. So make success guaranteed and make the win automatic."
 

Not quite an accurate description of my attitude, the problem and you check my posts on the past about encouraging others to form teams, I find it a pain on the ass to form teams to do anything, especially with Hami and MSR raids that depletes the available population to do anything, so when you can eventually cobble together a team of 8, you can't be too picky, over those who joined you, and thus the rub.

[Owl Girl]

imo we need more missions that reward varied team comps. if people can't find recruits for their team for those kind of missions, we should adjust the payout to make the juice worth the squeeze.

[Projector]

3 hours ago, DrRocket said:

Not quite an accurate description of my attitude, the problem and you check my posts on the past about encouraging others to form teams, I find it a pain on the ass to form teams to do anything, especially with Hami and MSR raids that depletes the available population to do anything, so when you can eventually cobble together a team of 8, you can't be too picky, over those who joined you, and thus the rub.

I hear you. To be clear, I wasn't trying to accurately describe your attitude, I was explaining how your post was coming across to some players. Wanted you to be aware of that was all.

What shard are you on? I am on Excel and I will say that throughout ToT it was VERY difficult to get other events going, and I know of several TFs, iTrials, MSRs, and Hamis that all ended up being cancelled bc there weren't enough players available. That sucked and I really wish that event was shorter, like 1-2 weeks instead of the whole month. Hopefully, that will alleviate things a bit. But, if you are on any other shard, yeah, it's going to be difficult to do it. 

Also, I lead a lot of content, and I tailored all of my builds to include things like a hold, TP Target, Combat TP, Fold Space, Incan, and debuffs like Melt Armor where possible in order to help my teams/leagues as much as possible. Precisely bc I never want to be in the position where I can't complete something, I do everything I can to ensure I can put the team on my back as much as possible when I need to. I've had to make some sacrifices in build choices/optimization, but as a leader, I'm usually typing or spamming macros anyway, so as long as I can carry out the core portion of my role while doing so, I don't mind. 

I would highly recommend that approach if you are someone who leads content regularly (which, if you do, THANK YOU! We need more).

And I can tell you that if you take one Hold from an epic/patron pool and you grab the origin hold power, you will be able to hold the greens on your own, albeit it will take a little bit. While you're at it, pick up the GEAS and Vanguard Medal accolades. They REALLY help with holds and recharge, speeding up the process significantly. If you don't want to, log in a toon on Excel and I will literally get you everything you need for those any time. Feel free to add my global in game @Project0r and if you have trouble finding a team or need an 8th for something, I'll happily transfer a toon over and help out if I am free!

Regardless of how you choose to proceed, I'm glad that the devs were so quick to implement your second concept idea by including origin temps at the START vendor that they implemented it before you even suggested it! So I guess the matter is resolved? Good work, us!

[DrRocket]

On 11/5/2024 at 6:46 PM, Projector said:

I hear you. To be clear, I wasn't trying to accurately describe your attitude, I was explaining how your post was coming across to some players. Wanted you to be aware of that was all.

What shard are you on? I am on Excel and I will say that throughout ToT it was VERY difficult to get other events going, and I know of several TFs, iTrials, MSRs, and Hamis that all ended up being cancelled bc there weren't enough players available. That sucked and I really wish that event was shorter, like 1-2 weeks instead of the whole month. Hopefully, that will alleviate things a bit. But, if you are on any other shard, yeah, it's going to be difficult to do it. 

Also, I lead a lot of content, and I tailored all of my builds to include things like a hold, TP Target, Combat TP, Fold Space, Incan, and debuffs like Melt Armor where possible in order to help my teams/leagues as much as possible. Precisely bc I never want to be in the position where I can't complete something, I do everything I can to ensure I can put the team on my back as much as possible when I need to. I've had to make some sacrifices in build choices/optimization, but as a leader, I'm usually typing or spamming macros anyway, so as long as I can carry out the core portion of my role while doing so, I don't mind. 

I would highly recommend that approach if you are someone who leads content regularly (which, if you do, THANK YOU! We need more).

And I can tell you that if you take one Hold from an epic/patron pool and you grab the origin hold power, you will be able to hold the greens on your own, albeit it will take a little bit. While you're at it, pick up the GEAS and Vanguard Medal accolades. They REALLY help with holds and recharge, speeding up the process significantly. If you don't want to, log in a toon on Excel and I will literally get you everything you need for those any time. Feel free to add my global in game @Project0r and if you have trouble finding a team or need an 8th for something, I'll happily transfer a toon over and help out if I am free!

Regardless of how you choose to proceed, I'm glad that the devs were so quick to implement your second concept idea by including origin temps at the START vendor that they implemented it before you even suggested it! So I guess the matter is resolved? Good work, us!

I am in Everlasting, both my wife and I lead a lot of content, if ever in Everlasting look for @sue or @forsetti

[Snarky]

On 11/3/2024 at 5:51 AM, DrRocket said:

This suggestion, is likely to result with a lot of work on the dev side, especially with the Star version of LGTF, if accepted.

 

The background to my suggestion has a lot to do with how City of Heroes has evolved in a friendlier way, in the very beginning because of the abilities of characters or classes they could be, this was an era before IOs, incarnates, and what not. So because of the limitations, when forming teams to do a TF or even a thread mission, the composition of the team was very important; I remember we would not dare do a TF without a tank and an emp defender! But as the game evolved, that set in stone requirement slowly diminished.

 

Now that I have set a context, I look at the Hami portion of it, and it sadly takes us back to the team breakdown qualifications such as we better have holds, which forces well built controllers and dominators or above these two to have blasters or others with holds.

 

Thus in the spirit of not requiring specific classes and builds to handle Hami, that something should be done about it, I have 2 concepts, but sure there are more to be thought off, which I hope you all will be happy to contribute with.

 

Concept 1: Get rid of the Hami mission altogether, and replace with it another mission of delicious Rikti carnage.

Concept 2: Provide a hold temp power you can buy at the P2W vendor, regardless of your alt's power source (magic, mutant, etc.)

 

I know, that many times, the team despite of being randomly put together can breeze through it, and I am sure one of you will tell me you can solo it because you are so legendary, but remember most of the players in the server are very likely to be casual players with modest builds and that the random team recruiting could make Hami a royal pain or not possible to complete

 

As always, please allow this to be a learning opportunity

 

Regards

 

No.  Just...no.

 

This TF already has been relooked at and changed.  For the better.  (yes, once in a while I like things)

 

BLASTERS can have 3 ST holds.  Most have at least one.  If you cannot 1) check your team before you start 2) brute force it (inspirations exist) then -----> 

[Seed22]

On 11/3/2024 at 1:27 PM, Projector said:

It's not right that I should be forced to either bring a healer, build for def/resistances, or include a heal. So, I think the enemies shouldn't ever do damage."
See the problem?

This is the main thing I disagree with.

 

Just because you don’t want, nor should you ever need, as it wasn’t the design philosophy of original CoH devs, AT specific role based gameplay(a Tank for tank role, healers) does not mean you don’t want enemies to do damage.

 

If, outside of HM, you bring a team of all blasters you should still be able to complete the content and have fun with it. 
 

If HC moves towards WoW like role enforced gameplay(they probably will adopt some similar) it will not go well I don’t think.

 

*I should say in respect to LGTF this is still possible. Blasters can grab holds and corrs and such have holds. Most everything does really, so in this instance the above isn’t really an issue. Just a word of caution for content going forward

 

 

Edited November 10 by Seed22

[Snarky]

22 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

 If HC moves towards WoW like role enforced gameplay(they probably will adopt some similar) it will not go well I don’t think.

Wait….   This?  This is the fear?

 

LGTF is what? 20 years old. And you can now complete it with no holds required.  Maybe always?   
 

So, at this rate we will be just like WoW in.  Hold on.  Math to do.  Okay. 2487 years.  Okay, it is a valid fear.  
 

Lets remove this TF from the game.  Better safe than sorry.  

Edited November 10 by Snarky

[DrRocket]

On 11/10/2024 at 7:40 AM, Seed22 said:

This is the main thing I disagree with.

 

Just because you don’t want, nor should you ever need, as it wasn’t the design philosophy of original CoH devs, AT specific role based gameplay(a Tank for tank role, healers) does not mean you don’t want enemies to do damage.

 

If, outside of HM, you bring a team of all blasters you should still be able to complete the content and have fun with it. 
 

If HC moves towards WoW like role enforced gameplay(they probably will adopt some similar) it will not go well I don’t think.

 

*I should say in respect to LGTF this is still possible. Blasters can grab holds and corrs and such have holds. Most everything does really, so in this instance the above isn’t really an issue. Just a word of caution for content going forward

 

 

Buddy, I think your reference is out of context. I do not think that Prject0r was asking for this. I also do ask you to please take time and read closely the why of the suggestion, somehow, I think you missed the mark and took it the wrong way.

 

Be well, and thank you for commenting