New D23 trailers

[BrandX]

15 hours ago, Excraft said:

 

I'll go out on a limb and say it didn't sell anywhere near X-Men or Avengers level.  Don't get me wrong, Bucky is a great supporting character and I like him in that capacity.  He isn't a leading man level character though.

 

To be fair, nothing usually does and X-Men and Avengers are usually under things like Spider-Man (Peter Parker...as honestly Miles doesn't sell that well except on issue ones) and Avenger's are usually under X-Men.

 

If I recall correctly, even when Marvel was trying to kill the X-Men franchise because FOX owned the movie rights, they couldn't even do that.

 

Also, Avenger's whole original gimmick was taking B, C and D listers and teaming them up.

[Without_Pause]

16 hours ago, Excraft said:

 

I'll go out on a limb and say it didn't sell anywhere near X-Men or Avengers level.  Don't get me wrong, Bucky is a great supporting character and I like him in that capacity.  He isn't a leading man level character though.

What a weird standard to have for a character which has been around for decades, who's name was literally a subtitle for one of the MCU's better reviewed movies, and said film pulled in over 700 million worldwide. I'm not saying he's on the Avengers or X-Men level, but incredibly few are. 

[Excraft]

57 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

What a weird standard to have for a character which has been around for decades, who's name was literally a subtitle for one of the MCU's better reviewed movies, and said film pulled in over 700 million worldwide.

 

Correct.  His character was a subtitle, not main character.  It wasn't The Winter Soldier with Captain America.  He was also the subtitle for a series where he took second billing to a secondary supporting character.  The Winter Soldier, regardless of how long he's been around, isn't an A-List character.  No offense meant to Sebastian Stan as he's a fine actor and great as the character, but he isn't the leading man box office draw like a RDJ.  Bucky works best in a supporting role in my opinion.  Why do you think Marvel/Disney are bringing back RDJ?  There are a whole host of very talented actors who would be fantastic choices for the role of Dr. Doom.  RDJ is a box office draw and they know just having him in the film is going to fill some seats for the nostalgia factor.

 

2 hours ago, BrandX said:

Also, Avenger's whole original gimmick was taking B, C and D listers and teaming them up.

 

Captain America, Hawkeye, Hulk, Iron Man, Thor, Ant-Man etc. are all original characters.  U.S. Agent, Yelena, Red Guardian, Red Hulk etc. are all copies of the more popular, better developed and more interesting originals.  No one is going to go flock to the movie theaters to see a Yelena or U.S. Agent or Red Guardian solo movie.

 

17 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

Asking this out of genuine curiosity. What would you rather they be putting out there?

 

A decent Fantastic Four film would be a good start.

 

[Without_Pause]

9 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

Correct.  His character was a subtitle, not main character.  It wasn't The Winter Soldier with Captain America.  He was also the subtitle for a series where he took second billing to a secondary supporting character.  The Winter Soldier, regardless of how long he's been around, isn't an A-List character.  No offense meant to Sebastian Stan as he's a fine actor and great as the character, but he isn't the leading man box office draw like a RDJ.  Bucky works best in a supporting role in my opinion.  Why do you think Marvel/Disney are bringing back RDJ?  There are a whole host of very talented actors who would be fantastic choices for the role of Dr. Doom.  RDJ is a box office draw and they know just having him in the film is going to fill some seats for the nostalgia factor.

 

I'm not arguing for Bucky being an A-Lister. I'm arguing against him being classified as a D-Lister. 

[Excraft]

22 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

I'm not arguing for Bucky being an A-Lister. I'm arguing against him being classified as a D-Lister. 

 

You're certainly welcome to your opinion on that.  I will respectfully disagree. 

[TTRPGWhiz]

On 11/12/2024 at 3:32 PM, Excraft said:

 

The D-List is a commonly used euphemism, especially in entertainment.  I'm surprised you've never heard of it, although I suspect you actually have.  You can't read an article or watch an interview about a big Hollywood star being referred to as an "A-List" celebrity. 

 

Per Google:

 

"The D-list in Hollywood refers to celebrities who are so obscure that they are typically only known for their appearances on reality television and panel game shows. A D-list celebrity is considered to be at the bottom of the celebrity heap."

 

The same can be said for these characters.  So Red Guardian, Bucky, Ghost, U.S. Agent et al. aren't "A-List" characters.  Other than US Agent, did any of them even have their own comic solo comic series?  This is Marvel/Disney attempting their take on a "Suicide Squad" type film and hoping there are enough saps fans still out there to spend money on it.  I just don't see these characters being the box office draw Disney/Marvel is hoping for.  You're welcome to disagree.

Guardians of the Galaxy, nuff said.

[Triumphant]

I don't mind the idea of obscure teams/comics being adapted into films.  Guardians of the Galaxy is definitely one of my favorite film franchises.  Likewise, the newest iteration of Suicide Squad.  I did enjoy the Black Widow movie and Red Guardian was amusing enough, but it wasn't one of my favorites.  Likewise, the Thunderbolts and the new Cap movie don't really excite me that much.  It's not even that I think they'll be terrible.  I'm not a big Disney hater or anything.  They make good stuff, they make terrible stuff, and they make stuff that is just... meh.  I'll see both films, eventually, and I'll probably even like them okay.  I'm just not really excited about them.

 

Actually, not to derail the thread, but what I would really like to see in this vein is James Gunn try his hand at doing a L.E.G.I.O.N. movie for DC.  That's an obscure team with a lot of cool (but not extremely well known) characters that could be as much fun as GotG, in their own way.

 

 

[ZacKing]

1 hour ago, TTRPGWhiz said:

Guardians of the Galaxy, nuff said.

 

Eternals, nuff said.

[BrandX]

8 hours ago, Excraft said:

 

Correct.  His character was a subtitle, not main character.  It wasn't The Winter Soldier with Captain America.  He was also the subtitle for a series where he took second billing to a secondary supporting character.  The Winter Soldier, regardless of how long he's been around, isn't an A-List character.  No offense meant to Sebastian Stan as he's a fine actor and great as the character, but he isn't the leading man box office draw like a RDJ.  Bucky works best in a supporting role in my opinion.  Why do you think Marvel/Disney are bringing back RDJ?  There are a whole host of very talented actors who would be fantastic choices for the role of Dr. Doom.  RDJ is a box office draw and they know just having him in the film is going to fill some seats for the nostalgia factor.

 

 

Captain America, Hawkeye, Hulk, Iron Man, Thor, Ant-Man etc. are all original characters.  U.S. Agent, Yelena, Red Guardian, Red Hulk etc. are all copies of the more popular, better developed and more interesting originals.  No one is going to go flock to the movie theaters to see a Yelena or U.S. Agent or Red Guardian solo movie.

 

 

A decent Fantastic Four film would be a good start.

 

 

No doubt there, but I do think a good movie will bring in the people.  GotG were nobodies and did great in theaters.  Eternals had lots of issues, it did not.

 

Though, going by your own comment, Winter Soldier is Bucky, so wouldn't he be an original character, since he was Captain America's sidekick?

[ZacKing]

12 hours ago, BrandX said:

Though, going by your own comment, Winter Soldier is Bucky, so wouldn't he be an original character, since he was Captain America's sidekick?

 

Well, Bucky was a response to Batman getting Robin, so I guess you could say Bucky isn't all that original in that regard.  I think the point about Bucky being a sidekick is just that.  He's a sidekick.  A supporting character, just like the others.  I don't think Suicide Squad Thunderbolts is going to come anywhere close to being the next GoTG.  It's going to be more another Eternals flop from the looks of it.

[BrandX]

2 hours ago, ZacKing said:

 

Well, Bucky was a response to Batman getting Robin, so I guess you could say Bucky isn't all that original in that regard.  I think the point about Bucky being a sidekick is just that.  He's a sidekick.  A supporting character, just like the others.  I don't think Suicide Squad Thunderbolts is going to come anywhere close to being the next GoTG.  It's going to be more another Eternals flop from the looks of it.

 

I dunno.  Eternals had it's artsy stuff and it's everyone has wanted to beat up the white straight male character all their lives, for no known reason, before they ever knew he was sticking to the plan.  Lots going on with that movie.  Thunderbolts looks to be CA: tWS with a bit bigger cast perhaps.

We'll have to wait and see.

[ZacKing]

54 minutes ago, BrandX said:

I dunno.

 

Bucky came out the year after Robin did.  He's the Marvel answer to the sidekick character.

 

54 minutes ago, BrandX said:

Thunderbolts looks to be CA: tWS with a bit bigger cast perhaps.

 

Exactly.  It's been done before, not just with a smaller cast, but the better, far more popular cast and characters.  We've already seen Avengers team up and political intrigue CA: TWS stories played out.  I do agree though, wait and see.  I don't see this film being a success.  Just being honest.  CA: BNW looks to be incorporating elements from Eternals, so I don't know why they're trying to build upon the story from a film that was a complete flop. 

 

[BrandX]

45 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

Bucky came out the year after Robin did.  He's the Marvel answer to the sidekick character.

 

 

Exactly.  It's been done before, not just with a smaller cast, but the better, far more popular cast and characters.  We've already seen Avengers team up and political intrigue CA: TWS stories played out.  I do agree though, wait and see.  I don't see this film being a success.  Just being honest.  CA: BNW looks to be incorporating elements from Eternals, so I don't know why they're trying to build upon the story from a film that was a complete flop. 

 

 

You know...the fans that don't want to have things just left hanging?  😛

[Excraft]

18 hours ago, BrandX said:

Though, going by your own comment, Winter Soldier is Bucky, so wouldn't he be an original character, since he was Captain America's sidekick?

 

Ok.  He's an original sidekick for Marvel.  He's not a top billing character, same as the rest of them.

 

1 hour ago, BrandX said:

You know...the fans that don't want to have things just left hanging?  😛

 

Eternals didn't draw the big crowds, so I really don't see hordes of people wanting to know what happened after that movie ended.  If they did, they'd have turned out to go and see Eternals, we'd see "Eternals pt. 2" on the MCU slate, solo Black Knight film etc. and they're nowhere to be fond.  I'm a fan of the MCU and I certainly couldn't give a hoot if they never do anything with the Eternals again and let that story fade away.

[TTRPGWhiz]

20 hours ago, ZacKing said:

 

Eternals, nuff said.

Is your argument here that because one movie featuring unknowns characters failed, but another wildly succeeded and spawned two sequels, that all movies featuring "D List" characters will fail? Because that is some interesting logic.

[TTRPGWhiz]

30 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

Ok.  He's an original sidekick for Marvel.  He's not a top billing character, same as the rest of them.

 

...80 years ago.

[ZacKing]

2 minutes ago, TTRPGWhiz said:

Is your argument here that because one movie featuring unknowns characters failed, but another wildly succeeded and spawned two sequels, that all movies featuring "D List" characters will fail? Because that is some interesting logic.

 

No less interesting than your "logic".  Is your argument here that because one movie of unknown (even though they are far more well known and popular) characters succeeded, but another wildly failed and spawned no sequels means that all movies featuring D List characters will succeed?  Because that is some interesting logic.

 

7 minutes ago, TTRPGWhiz said:

...80 years ago.

 

So? 

[TTRPGWhiz]

13 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

So? 

lol, if that doesn't seem relevant to you, then there's nothing else to say

[Without_Pause]

The Winter Solider character will be 20 years old next year. The idea that Bucky is a sidekick in the MCU is a bit amusing considered the OG Cap is dead, and TWS has every right to be Cap as the Falcon does. No one would blink or be outraged if TWS picked up and used Cap's shield. 

[ZacKing]

41 minutes ago, TTRPGWhiz said:

lol, if that doesn't seem relevant to you, then there's nothing else to say

 

I don't quite get what your point is here?  Bucky was created as the "Robin" type sidekick for Captain America.  There's no debate there.  He evolved into the Winter Soldier later on, basically like the OG Robin became Nightwing.  He's still a supporting character though. 

 

27 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

The Winter Solider character will be 20 years old next year. The idea that Bucky is a sidekick in the MCU is a bit amusing considered the OG Cap is dead, and TWS has every right to be Cap as the Falcon does. No one would blink or be outraged if TWS picked up and used Cap's shield. 

 

I don't think he's a sidekick in the MCU, but he is a supporting character.

[Excraft]

38 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

The Winter Solider character will be 20 years old next year. The idea that Bucky is a sidekick in the MCU is a bit amusing considered the OG Cap is dead, and TWS has every right to be Cap as the Falcon does. No one would blink or be outraged if TWS picked up and used Cap's shield. 

 

Bucky isn't Cap's sidekick in the MCU.  He never was.  He is a supporting character.  Always has been.  He's never had top billing in a solo movie.  With the exception of Hawkeye (poor fellow) all of the OG Avengers have had their own solo films. 

 

As for him taking on the mantle of Cap, he did that in the comics too.  I wasn't a huge fan of that either to be honest.  Cap will always be Steve Rogers to me. 

Edited November 14 by Excraft

[Without_Pause]

8 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

Bucky isn't Cap's sidekick in the MCU.  He never was.  He is a supporting character.  Always has been.  He's never had top billing in a solo movie.  With the exception of Hawkeye (poor fellow) all of the OG Avengers have had their own solo films. 

So someone who hasn't been a sidekick to Captain American in the MCU but a partner and has had his name in a MCU movie and TV show is a total D-lister. Welcome to the internet, where everything is a A-lister or D-lister. Why do other listers even try to exist? 😉

[TTRPGWhiz]

20 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

I don't quite get what your point is here?  Bucky was created as the "Robin" type sidekick for Captain America.  There's no debate there.  He evolved into the Winter Soldier later on, basically like the OG Robin became Nightwing.  He's still a supporting character though. 

 

 

I don't think he's a sidekick in the MCU, but he is a supporting character.

Yes, he was was created to fill that sidekick role 80 years ago. Things have changed.

The original comment that drove all this is "these are D List characters", which is an absurd thing to say about Bucky specifically.

[ZacKing]

13 minutes ago, TTRPGWhiz said:

Yes, he was was created to fill that sidekick role 80 years ago. Things have changed.

 

I see you missed this.

 

36 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Bucky was created as the "Robin" type sidekick for Captain America.  There's no debate there.  He evolved into the Winter Soldier later on, basically like the OG Robin became Nightwing.  He's still a supporting character though. 

 

No one has said Bucky didn't evolve.  Of course he did.  He's still a supporting character.

 

14 minutes ago, TTRPGWhiz said:

The original comment that drove all this is "these are D List characters", which is an absurd thing to say about Bucky specifically.

 

It's no more absurd than people like yourself putting him on the same level as Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, Black Widow, Hulk etc.  He's not.  Each of those original Avengers had at least one solo outing.  The Winter Soldier hasn't.  He's been a supporting character the whole time.  I get that you like the character and that's great.  That doesn't make your opinion more valuable or more correct than the next persons.  You love and adore him and want to consider him to be top of the superhero heap, good for you.  More power to you.  That's your prerogative.  That doesn't mean someone else not thinking he's top dog material is wrong.   It's just opinion.  So instead of insulting others, agree to disagree.

[TTRPGWhiz]

1 minute ago, ZacKing said:

It's no more absurd than people like yourself putting him on the same level as Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, Black Widow, Hulk etc.  He's not.  Each of those original Avengers had at least one solo outing.  The Winter Soldier hasn't.  He's been a supporting character the whole time.  I get that you like the character and that's great.  That doesn't make your opinion more valuable or more correct than the next persons.  You love and adore him and want to consider him to be top of the superhero heap, good for you.  More power to you.  That's your prerogative.  That doesn't mean someone else not thinking he's top dog material is wrong.   It's just opinion.  So instead of insulting others, agree to disagree.

 

Nobody said he's that level (although I'd argue that yes, Bucky is a bigger deal in the 616 than Black Widow). 
The binary of "you're either A-list / can carry your own movie or you're D list" is where I think people are taking issue. Because it's ridiculous.

You seem to really want to infer a whole lot of things that I didn't type. Which is of course your prerogative. But consider maybe that that's the definition of a straw  man argument.